Game of Thrones Season 4 Ep 3 Review "Breaker of Chains" - Rape & Betrayal

[daibakuha]

Martin actually did respond to the "outrage" via his livejournal.

I think the "butterfly effect" that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey's death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other's company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime's POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don't know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression -- but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.

I think the scene makes sense for where Jaime is at right now. Too many people seem to think that he's made this complete transformation to being a good guy now, that his development is over when it's really not. I think if we're going to be outraged at something we should at least give them time to properly contextualize the scene in next week's episode first. We don't know where they're heading with this plotline, so let's see where they take it first.

I'd also like to add that the scene in the books isn't exactly 100% rape free. It's a kind of skeevy disgusting scene, even if Cersei eventually wants it.

 

[DugMachine]

Man was that scene really a big deal? It was odd but I don't get why people think Jaimie is a good guy. And rape happens in GoT.. like more times than I can remember. If you can't handle rape in this story maybe it's not for you. But then again I'm thinking people are upset because Jaimie is the rapist and not some sellsword/secondary character.

 

[K12]

It's going to be difficult to move on from Jaime's character here without making some very dodgy implications.

Spoiler

I've seen Jaime's development from this point on as him becoming more rational and decent by gradually freeing himself from Cersei, to the point where he refuses to champion her at her trial.

I think with this rape (and it is definitely rape) it's going to seem too much like an implication that Cersei makes Jaime act crazy will include she made me rape her.

I don't this is the "ruined forever" moment that a bizarrely large number of people are treating it as however it will cause difficulties in Jaime's development as a character.

 

[Merklyn236]

My memory isn't the best, I'll admit, but I do want to say while this scene in particular is different in the books, as starts with it being non-consensual and then rolls into consensual (more on that in a second), Jaime does several times after Joffery's death seriously consider doing exactly what happened in the episode. Cersi continues to grow colder and more distant to him, and there is a part of him that seems to think that maybe if he could have her again things would be more the way they used to be. After later developments, he leaves King's Landing before his relationship with his sister/lover can get any worse.

Based on the Jaime's character arc in the books, I'm very curious about where they're going to take him in the show as it really does make it hard for the audience to root for him ever again after this, regardless of your opinion of Cersi.

But I think in way this episode and the rape itself brings up another issue. Both this particular encounter, which in the books begins with Cersi saying "No, not here" (which is still a 'No' folks) and then changing her mind, and Dany's first night with her new husband Khal Drogo (which also starts a 'No' from her that becomes a 'Yes') does present a problem. How uncomfortable would many people in the audience be with these scenes that START as a rape and then move to consensual sex? Isn't that going to make people MORE uncomfortable? Or am I the only one that thinks that, even if that's what happens in the source material?

 

[Silvanus]

It's a very significant departure, I have to agree.

What I can't quite understand is why the major departures in how the show depicts Stannis didn't garner the same attention (outside of dedicated forums). Stannis' depiction has been strikingly different, in both seasons 3 and 4, so far.

 

[Zydrate]

I'm basically erasing this scene from my mind and going with the book version. At least this time I can attribute it to bad direction and not Jaime being an actual horrible person.

 

[Sejborg]

Nope. The raping of Cersei will make her story arc a bit more sensible. Just you wait and see.

 

[Angelous Wang]

"Breaker of Chains" is an appropriate title for this episode and sums up how I see/feel about this whole Jamie rape thing.

This rape was not about Jamie's morality at all, I expect he will still be the slightly morally better version of Jamie he has been becoming and continue on that way.

This was all about control, Jamie has been slowly taking control of his own life back from everyone else ever since he lost his hand (because he has been complete puppet his entire life up until now).

Cersei has been in control of Jamie since puberty (via sex), she is the only woman he has ever slept with and he has only ever slept with her when she wanted to/on her terms, and as such he has had to stay on her good side his eniter life and do whatever she wanted.

She was the one who made him join the kings guard in the first place, under the Mad King, the reason she did that was because she believed she was going to marry the Mad King and she figured that was a way for them to be together, but like most of Cersei's plans that ended up not happening and then Jamie was left alone as the Mad King's bodyguard.

And that is probably the biggest single thing that fucked Jamie up. The Mad King did lots and lots of very fucked up things like every day, he was Joffery x100. And Jamie was there for all of it.

But with this scene Jamie finally takes his control back from Cersei, he finally breaks the chains of her vagina and has his way with her for once.

Cersei is not a victim of Jamie, Cersei is a victim of Cersei, as she is her entire life. She does fucked up shit she thinks is clever and then it all blows up in her face.

IMO this is a step forward in character development for Jamie, this gives him his control back and will not effect his morality at all.

 

[Grahav]

I am going with Tito on this. If the episode's theme was about assholes, why not make both the twins assholes by playing out like in the book where stress relieve is a desecration of the sanctity of the dead, family and a holy place.

Meh, I think he is also right about the producers trolling us.

 

[freaper]

Darn, I didn't know this had become such a big thing, but I can see how it could.

When I watched the scene, I could tell that the intent of the scene was for her to protest, then get into it, and be conflicted between wanting to be with Jaime and wanting to grieve, and wanting solace and wanting to NOT have sex by their firstborn child's still-fresh corpse, and for it to be twisted and messed up and uncomfortable for everyone involved and everyone watching.

When I watched the scene, I thought it did a poor job of getting that across, but because I'd figured out what it was supposed to be, I just rolled with it and chalked it up to a directing error. I didn't consider at the time what people who didn't figure it out would think, and given how poorly it was brought across, that was probably a fair amount of them.

*snip*

I agree with this sentiment.

Maybe it's a bit of a stretch to pull in a scene from a different show but,

Spoiler: Spoiler for Breaking Bad

remember that one scene where Walt comes back home to find his wife with a beauty mask on, and riding on his power trip he wants to get freaky in the kitchen, slamming her against the fridge? That was a lot more rapey to me than this; Skyler clearly yelled out for him to stop, no second-guessing.

Here, like Smiley Face posits, Cersei clearly needed comfort, one way or the other, and Jaime was a tad too enthusiastic about reuniting physically with her after such a long period. All that scene did for me was reaffirm that he does actually love his sister and wants to be with her, no matter what.

 

[ExtraDebit]

Killing people is wrong yet we see that often enough in tv and movies.

Saying the word "fuck" is wrong in programs for children.

Having sex with under 18 is wrong in some countries yet in japan it's legal for 16 and above.

Rights and wrong is relative and a human construct, in the world of game of thrones rape is like having lunch. If you're going to discuss a fantasy world you should leave your own morals out of it.

Personally I think not being a gentleman and not opening a door for a lady is wrong but I have no problem with rape, torture or killing tv, movies and books weather it's adult OR children, it's just fantasies. Even is someone raped Tyrion, so what? it's just a story.

 

[Kenjitsuka]

"Well, it becomes consensual by the end, because anything for them ultimately results in a turn-on, especially a power struggle,"

That was my impression, that it ultimately became consentual. Maybe I saw a differently edited version, but I recall her eventually stopping protesting and more moaning?

"I'm not really sure what's going to be the pay off there"
They get an action scene and stop information about their low numbers from falling into enemy hands. Made a lot of sense to me.

"She starts delivering a stirring speech, which you at first believe is being delivered to the rulers of the city"
I don't. Didn't you see all of the shots of the slaves being EVERYWHERE on the wall?
Anyway, it made for a great ending, that's for sure!

 

[ninja51]

]

SNIP

Then explain to me what about the television story "demanded" that this scene be portrayed in this way. 'Cause all I saw was everything we knew about Jaime's character at that point in the show being thrown out in the name of cheap shock value.

I don't care how it compares to the books, I've never read them. What I care about is how it works as a standalone story. This scene was a mistake, period.

Well that's just like... your opinion man.

As some other posts below my original explain, Jaime's madly and creepily in love with Cersei. He pushed Bran out of a window while fucking her. That past, that memory, and that creepy love for Cersei didn't disappear when he had his adventures with Brienne. So when he comes back to King's Landing, finding the only person he's loved or even had sex with as far as we know rejecting him coldly and bitterly, his character loses his last hold on who he was before, handsome fearsome powerful Jaime Lannister. He's becoming a good guy, but it seems you believe that is a simple transition. He's learning how fucked the people in his past are, but at the same time he's pretty fucked up himself still. He snapped, and considering that deep character analysis is what I got from the scene, I'd say it was anything but a mistake.

 

[Grey Edwards]

"It was supposed to be a rape that ended up being consensual."

Fuck this guy. Fuck him, fuck him, fuck him. This is not a thing.

My wife's fantasies would like to have a word with you. As would a large number of the women's romance novels. Nothing ever condones rape, but the concept that the victim ends up enjoying her/himself is a very real thing.

 

[saruman31]

It was not rape. Have you even watched the show?

 

[TaboriHK]

I interpreted this as Jaime in a moment of frustration (remember, he has no hand, no one regards him as the same, and he essentially watched his son die while watching helplessly, and not being able to even openly acknowledge it that way) trying to reassert his old identity; that is, the season one Jaime, where neither he nor Cersei even flinched at pushing a child to his death to keep boning. That he is not this character any more, and she is not that character anymore, is what made the scene for me particularly painful to watch. His desire to reinforce that he's still this person, and that nothing has changed, when everything has changed, turns this moment into what it is; something so beyond dark that it would be comical if it wasn't so awful. I think Joffrey's lifeless corpse flailing about in response cements this fittingly.

Hopefully Jaime's arc going forward will show that this is what was meant to be seen, and not just "Jaime felt like getting rapey." The show so far has been so well-written that I give it the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Johnathon Burchett]

Okay, look, the question about the victim coming around to enjoy rape (which is an erotica/romance trope that probably doesn't exist in real life, at least outside of those with a tremendous amount of psychological baggage) isn't what this thread is about. It's not a matter of whether Cersei started moaning or whether people have rape fantasies. The issue is that the scene depicted in the show was a rape scene, perpetrated by a popular character who up to that point had seemed to be on the path of redemption, and whether or not that character beat works for the audience. Rape is horrible, and this is meant to be a realistic, not erotic fantasy, rape, so arguments about rape fantasies don't really apply. This isn't about a fictional character's supposed enjoyment of a rape, it's about whether or not the scene worked.

I'd argue that it does, at least in some ways. The two characters involved are extremely complicated and psychologically damaged individuals, who've been feeding off of each other's aberrations. I wasn't really expecting ordinary grief and anger behaviors from them(whatever you think those may be). I don't think it upsets Jaime's redemption so much, because I don't really know that redemption is really the arc he was on. Jaime's a shit. He's a shit trying to make amends, but he's still a shit.

We want there to be unambiguous heroes in this story. The only characters who've come close are Ned, Jon, and Brienne, with Tyrion a distant runner-up (he's a little too willing to be ruthless when called for and too unwilling to fight his family to be a completely unambiguous hero). Unfortunately, the story doesn't seem to want to give us those, and I'm not sure Jaime was ever meant to be a hero anyway. I suspect his overall theme is going to be the tragedy of who he might have been if he'd been born anything other than Lannister.

 

[Johnathon Burchett]

Okay, look, the question about the victim coming around to enjoy rape (which is an erotica/romance trope that probably doesn't exist in real life, at least outside of those with a tremendous amount of psychological baggage) isn't what this thread is about. It's not a matter of whether Cersei started moaning or whether people have rape fantasies. The issue is that the scene depicted in the show was a rape scene, perpetrated by a popular character who up to that point had seemed to be on the path of redemption, and whether or not that character beat works for the audience. Rape is horrible, and this is meant to be a realistic, not erotic fantasy, rape, so arguments about rape fantasies don't really apply. This isn't about a fictional character's supposed enjoyment of a rape, it's about whether or not the scene worked.

I'd argue that it does, at least in some ways. The two characters involved are extremely complicated and psychologically damaged individuals, who've been feeding off of each other's aberrations. I wasn't really expecting ordinary grief and anger behaviors from them(whatever you think those may be). I don't think it upsets Jaime's redemption so much, because I don't really know that redemption is really the arc he was on. Jaime's a shit. He's a shit trying to make amends, but he's still a shit.

We want there to be unambiguous heroes in this story. The only characters who've come close are Ned, Jon, and Brienne, with Tyrion a distant runner-up (he's a little too willing to be ruthless when called for and too unwilling to fight his family to be a completely unambiguous hero). Unfortunately, the story doesn't seem to want to give us those, and I'm not sure Jaime was ever meant to be a hero anyway. I suspect his overall theme is going to be the tragedy of who he might have been if he'd been born anything other than Lannister.