Game of Thrones Season 4 Ep 4 "Oathkeeper" Review - What's Going On?

[TiberiusEsuriens]

Ha, finishing the episode I too thought "Arthas and the Frozen Throne is officially GoT canon. Weird but cool."

I haven't read the books, but I am really glad that the show seems to be taking a more direct approach to the lore and mysticism of Westeros. As a big Dune fan I am fully aware of how terribly monologues and characters' inner thoughts translate to the screen. Sometimes showing simply trumps telling, especially in a medium like TV.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Karl 'fucking' Tanner as the insane lord of his own little hell was gleefully over-acted. I think he was glorious. "Any more Orders...? What's that lord commander? Fuck 'em till their dead?!"

He so cray.

Burn Gorman is a funny sort of actor. I've never seen anyone who can be so unpleasant and yet so... dorky, at the same time.

 

[SadisticBrownie]

I've read the books, and I'd have to say I like the changes. The books just stagnate so much and it's nice to see some questions answered. The scene with the baby was really menacing, but I'm not sure about the...thing's design. He looked like a blue and white version of Darth Maul to me.

 

[shadowmagus]

I'm glad for the changes. As a book reader myself, a lot of book readers can be really pretentious individuals. Anything that angers them pleases me immensely.

 

[The Funslinger]

I don't understand how this episode isn't just universally reviled. I can handle changes to the books, the different format requires plenty of concessions and the books were never perfect to begin with, but Christ this episode was dumb. The only scene that wasn't god-awful was Jaime and Brienne's, and even that is sullied by what happened in the last episode.

The deserters in Craster's Keep have less depth than Saturday morning cartoon villains. The leader literally drinks out of skulls and plans to rape all of the women to death (something he announces to the world freely), and he was a hired killer before even joining the Night's Watch. He also imprisons a giant fucking dire-wolf for no discernible reason whatsoever (so that Jon can come be a hero and save it I guess?), then he also imprisons Bran (and company) for no discernible reason (again, so that Jon can be a hero and come save him?). He and his henchman randomly jab at Hodor just in case we're somehow still not sure that these guys are definitely 100% the villains, but again they won't kill him because plot armour. One of them even gives a little bit of exposition, he hates Hodor because Hodor is tall and he is short. Deep.

In terms of Hodor, people are bullies. Not just when they're kids, either. A mentally handicapped guy is a fairly easy target, especially in a feudal setting where people aren't particularly sympathetic to them. And with nothing to do but fuck sister-mothers all day, they were probably at least a little bored. Besides, they're more or less in prison guard status over him. Typically, unrestrained, people in such a position tend to exhibit sadistic tendencies over said prisoners. That these guys are made up of cut throats and rapists, they probably don't need much help to bare a sadistic streak.

As for the hitman from King's Landing, I got the impression he's trying to big himself up to keep the others under control. Look at his situation. If he doesn't keep the others respectfully scared of him, he'll probably go the same way as Mormont. As for Ghost, the guy seems to be the sort to like status symbols. Keeping Ghost chained up like that isn't a million miles away from chavvy assholes keeping pitbulls, or corrupt weirdos in Hollywood having tigers.

Why did Bran (and company) decide to hide 3 feet from where the deserters were? Why did the deserters set a huge pit trap in the middle of their own camp? Why did Sam even tell Jon about Bran? All to set up some crappy plot in which Jon (and pals + the obvious future betrayer) ditch the wall right when there's an incoming wilding invasion!? The wildings are beyond the wall right now at this very moment, acting as a diversion for a wildling army which is moving on them also right now at this very moment, and Jon goes to get revenge on some deserters!? What The Fuck?

I imagine the pit is a counter measure against white walkers, which are kind of swarming, in case you hadn't noticed. Or, you know, all the fairly dangerous animals and such that are meant to be north of the wall. And as for dealing with the deserters, Jon has stated numerous times that these guys know the Wall's security and patrols. They know its layout. Most importantly, they know that the Wall does not in fact have a huge fuck off army (i.e. the very thing keeping Mance cautious about assaulting it). If the Wildlings get that info, the Watch is screwed.

It even seems like they're trying to set up a romance between Grey Worm and Missandei. I hope I'm wrong about that, but seriously? The eunuch warrior who has had practically all emotions tortured out of him since before he could even remember, who lives for nothing but serving "The Breaker of Chains" and liberating his still-bound brethren, and they're giving him a romance subplot. If they go through with that, that's his entire interesting personality butchered and replaced with more generic drivel.

I admit this is kind of silly, but the whole point Grey Worm's peers elected him in the first place was because he showed more emotion/independent thought than the rest of them. And given that he's a eunach, any romance will probably be either one sided or unfulfilling.

Olenna Tyrell, yet another character they seem intent on destroying. The elderly woman who is the extremely influential effective head of the Tyrell family, who gained her power via her extreme cunning and ruthlessness. Oh, nevermind, it turns out she's just really good at sex. She was supposed to marry a Targaryen, but didn't like him and stole the Tyrell heir by sneaking into his room and screwing him so well that he... became addicted to her? Nevermind the fact that she had nothing but disdain for Luthor Tyrell as well.

So, because she reminisces about once using sex and sexuality to get what she wanted in a conversation where such an anecdote was relevant somehow invalidates everything else she's done? Setting up marriages with three kings for her daughter? Orchestrating Joffrey's death? Keeping pace with Varys and Tywin?

I'd ask you to actually think about the reasons for certain things before writing them off as stupid, but seeing as you're actually ignoring in show explanations on at least one occasion, I won't hold my breath.

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

Eeh I'm basically just ignoring the rape. It seems like an unintentional cock up as opposed to an alteration in the plot, so I don't see why I'd consider it relevant.

I mean he already tried to murder a 10 year old. And DID murder a bunch of other people. I'd say on the bad scale rape is at least 2 Stalin's away from a full Hitler, and murder is maybe only 1,5.

 

[Grahav]

"Margeary's ploy to sneak in and talk to Tommen like a real person is genius, and he will quickly latch onto her over his smothering mother."

You mean seducing a very sugestable minor to give her the reins of power?

Yea, ha ha, they recast the character between seasons, so the kid went from looking like 8 years old to 15 and taller than Joffery in a matter of weeks in-story so people wouldn't complain.

The scene is still creepy. Remember "Pedofinger"? Tommen is even younger than Sansa, be it by age, looks or personality.

Actually its very clever and really sets up the awkward relationship and conflict between, the Tyrells (mostly Margery but also Loras who started training Tommen as a Knight), Tommen and Cersei as they compete for his heart and mind (or more accurately his arse, because its on the throne) which kinda comes out of nowhere in the books. Making that one of the key story lines of the Court in Kings Landing much earlier makes sense.

In terms of power play and show narrative it is pretty clever.

What I didn't like is that Greg seemed to gloss over the seduction of a minor and just focusing on the smartness of Margaery.

 

[ChristopherT]

I don't understand how this episode isn't just universally reviled. I can handle changes to the books, the different format requires plenty of concessions and the books were never perfect to begin with, but Christ this episode was dumb.

I completely agree. This episode was so stupid. The dialogue/monologue in Craster's Keep was a mess of bad writing.

"Karl Tanner from Gin Alley drinking wine from the skull of Jeor Fucking Mormont. Any command for us lord commander? what's that? fuck 'em till their dead. Did you hear that boys, fuck 'em till their dead. Rast. Go outside and feed the best." - Okay, this is alright. it's not great, but fine, BAD GUY, got it.

Rast - "We should kill that thing."

"You should shut your fucking hole, ugly little ****. You look like a fucking ballsack. Ugly looking stupid looking **** face. I could piss in any gutter and soak five of you. Know how much they paid me to kill a man in King's Landing? Seven silvers. They told me a man's name and that man never saw daylight again. None of them cocksuckers got away from me. Haven't lost a fight since I was nine. Maybe it's time. What do you think, eh? Maybe you're the man. Eh, ****?" - What is this shit? - Ugly looking stupid looking **** face - ? I'm not against swearing, nor the word Fuck nor ****. This though? This is just crap.

Rast - "I wouldn't stand a chance, none of us would."

"I was a fucking legend in Gin Alley. a fucking legend. I would take any knight, any knight any time. Fucking cunts in steel plate fucking cowards."

Then everything else was just heavy handed, they pushed subtlety out a tower window.

 

[Ralancian]

Apologies if this is abit rude in language. The only thing that was missing from the Margery/Tommen scene was him going to masturbate immediately after he left. Seriously the age he's portrayed as I know what I would of done as soon as she left.

I liked the episode yeah it was a departure in some places but mainly it worked I just worry about 3-4 seasons of Danerys in Meereen they are going to have to work hard at keeping it interesting. Bran is the other major criminal for doing nothing. The major diffrence is bran is utterly dull Danerys has an important character arc to go through but it's a lot of just learning to rule which may sap people attention.

 

[J Tyran]

Actually its very clever and really sets up the awkward relationship and conflict between, the Tyrells (mostly Margery but also Loras who started training Tommen as a Knight), Tommen and Cersei as they compete for his heart and mind (or more accurately his arse, because its on the throne) which kinda comes out of nowhere in the books. Making that one of the key story lines of the Court in Kings Landing much earlier makes sense.

In terms of power play and show narrative it is pretty clever.

What I didn't like is that Greg seemed to gloss over the seduction of a minor and just focusing on the smartness of Margaery.

I guess they glossed over it as that isn't seen as important, ASOIAF relies on the real world Medieval standards and morality of sex and marriage. If a girl has started menstruation and a boy can perform the task they are seen as fit to marry, those attitudes are rightly condemned by modern standards in most of the developed and developing nations but back then and in this story its the norm.

It has to be said the books never took that route though, Tommen was far younger than they are presenting him in the show and the Tyrells seduction was centred around Margery filling Tommens life with fun, games and kittens and young kids his own age with Ser Loras introducing him to the gallantry and pageantry associated with being a Knight.

 

[Julius Ketonen]

GRRM has expressed worry over how he might not be around to finish his books. I think the White Walker at the end was an attempt to give some sort of context for future episodes if he's gone. Although the fact that the boys were been turned into White Walkers didn't really come as any sort of surprise.

 

[Grahav]

Actually its very clever and really sets up the awkward relationship and conflict between, the Tyrells (mostly Margery but also Loras who started training Tommen as a Knight), Tommen and Cersei as they compete for his heart and mind (or more accurately his arse, because its on the throne) which kinda comes out of nowhere in the books. Making that one of the key story lines of the Court in Kings Landing much earlier makes sense.

In terms of power play and show narrative it is pretty clever.

What I didn't like is that Greg seemed to gloss over the seduction of a minor and just focusing on the smartness of Margaery.

I guess they glossed over it as that isn't seen as important, ASOIAF relies on the real world Medieval standards and morality of sex and marriage. If a girl has started menstruation and a boy can perform the task they are seen as fit to marry, those attitudes are rightly condemned by modern standards in most of the developed and developing nations but back then and in this story its the norm.

It has to be said the books never took that route though, Tommen was far younger than they are presenting him in the show and the Tyrells seduction was centred around Margery filling Tommens life with fun, games and kittens and young kids his own age with Ser Loras introducing him to the gallantry and pageantry associated with being a Knight.

When you say "they" are you referring to the characters, the producers or the critics?

Part of the show is the critic and view of medieval morality by a modern audience. Seducing a boy is okay to Westeros but is it okay to a modern audience? There is a lot of critical analysis on the different aspects of honor, ethics in war, family, rule by heritage, vengeance, gender expectations from those times to nowadays. But the seduction of a young boy is just glossed over? That may imply that the critic's ethic in relation to that is not different from the scenario's ethic.

If it was a guy seducing the future young queen, how would it be... Try to imagine, let's say... What is happening right now between Littlefinger and Sansa.

What I have seen around is people saying:

a)How Tommen is lucky, like Margaery is giving him a big gift, you can bet is much of this sayings are not being told as total jokes;
b)Or people saying that she is not seducing him at all and there was nothing sexual in that scene.

Implications:

a)There is no damage done by female pedophiles.
b)There is no such thing as female pedophiles.

 

[J Tyran]

Actually its very clever and really sets up the awkward relationship and conflict between, the Tyrells (mostly Margery but also Loras who started training Tommen as a Knight), Tommen and Cersei as they compete for his heart and mind (or more accurately his arse, because its on the throne) which kinda comes out of nowhere in the books. Making that one of the key story lines of the Court in Kings Landing much earlier makes sense.

In terms of power play and show narrative it is pretty clever.

What I didn't like is that Greg seemed to gloss over the seduction of a minor and just focusing on the smartness of Margaery.

I guess they glossed over it as that isn't seen as important, ASOIAF relies on the real world Medieval standards and morality of sex and marriage. If a girl has started menstruation and a boy can perform the task they are seen as fit to marry, those attitudes are rightly condemned by modern standards in most of the developed and developing nations but back then and in this story its the norm.

It has to be said the books never took that route though, Tommen was far younger than they are presenting him in the show and the Tyrells seduction was centred around Margery filling Tommens life with fun, games and kittens and young kids his own age with Ser Loras introducing him to the gallantry and pageantry associated with being a Knight.

When you say "they" are you referring to the characters, the producers or the critics?

Part of the show is the critic and view of medieval morality by a modern audience. Seducing a boy is okay to Westeros but is it okay to a modern audience? There is a lot of critical analysis on the different aspects of honor, ethics in war, family, rule by heritage, vengeance, gender expectations from those times to nowadays. But the seduction of a young boy is just glossed over? That may imply that the critic's ethic in relation to that is not different from the scenario's ethic.

If it was a guy seducing the future young queen, how would it be... Try to imagine, let's say... What is happening right now between Littlefinger and Sansa.

What I have seen around is people saying:

a)How Tommen is lucky, like Margaery is giving him a big gift, you can bet is much of this sayings are not being told as total jokes;
b)Or people saying that she is not seducing him at all and there was nothing sexual in that scene.

Implications:

a)There is no damage done by female pedophiles.
b)There is no such thing as female pedophiles.

I guess we are seeing it differently, I don't see it as a big deal as the book and the show make it pretty it clear that they go by the archaic real world attitudes to sex and marriage. The critical analysis comes after, there is no need to do that in the show and just play it straight and leave it for meta discussion later.

As for peoples attitudes I think the first one is coming from a lot of people simply thinking "damn I wish when I was a young a hot girl like Margery wanted to bang me!" rather than anything sinister, the second attitude is more worrying because its pretty obvious what was going on. She was seducing him and making it damn clear that creeping in of a night would a regular and off screen occurrence so they didn't have to actually have any sexual activity with a young actor.

 

[Grahav]

I guess we are seeing it differently, I don't see it as a big deal as the book and the show make it pretty it clear that they go by the archaic real world attitudes to sex and marriage. The critical analysis comes after, there is no need to do that in the show and just play it straight and leave it for meta discussion later.

As for peoples attitudes I think the first one is coming from a lot of people simply thinking "damn I wish when I was a young a hot girl like Margery wanted to bang me!" rather than anything sinister, the second attitude is more worrying because its pretty obvious what was going on. She was seducing him and making it damn clear that creeping in of a night would a regular and off screen occurrence so they didn't have to actually have any sexual activity with a young actor.

Agreed, it is true that some people are just placing themselves in Tommen's pants just to get Margaery. Some people in former seasons were thinking basically the same in relation to Aria and Gendry.

We were really talking about different things. You about the show's/producer's view on it (which was pretty acurate) and me about the critics and viewers position about it.