Game of Thrones Season 4 finale

[Silvanus]

And the whole thing with Bran was very un-Game of Thrones. First you have the Mad Max girl, and then the old dude who looks like he belongs in a Sam Raimi movie.

His look is significantly different in the books-- he looks more like something from a Guillermo Del Toro movie than a Sam Raimi one.

My main problem with the old fella is that he has two eyes in the show-- but they still give him his line about watching "with a thousand eyes, and one". It doesn't make any damn sense if he has two eyes.

 

[Casual Shinji]

And the whole thing with Bran was very un-Game of Thrones. First you have the Mad Max girl, and then the old dude who looks like he belongs in a Sam Raimi movie.

His look is significantly different in the books-- he looks more like something from a Guillermo Del Toro movie than a Sam Raimi one.

My main problem with the old fella is that he has two eyes in the show-- but they still give him his line about watching "with a thousand eyes, and one". It doesn't make any damn sense if he has two eyes.

Well, you know what I mean - This hyped up fantasy character. That one White Walker at the end of Season 2 had a classic fantasy look to him, but it was still completely in tone with the series. This girl and the old dude feel very out of place. Also the girl having an older person dub her voice stood out very heavily.

 

[stroopwafel]

The whole Shea thing kind of pissed me off. Not so much that Tyrion murdered her, but that she turned out to be a traitor. Since when? Since always? Either she's been deceiving him al along, making all those touching moments between her and Tyrion completely null and void (as well as our time watching it), or she really did love him but turned traitor when he forced her away for her own protection, which is just fucking stupid soap opera antics; The scorned lover returns as a villain.

Yeah I found Shae's betrayal of Tyrion really inconsistent with her character as well. I was genuinely surprised when that happened. For starters time and again Tyrion tried to get Shae out of King's Landing and as far away from his fucked up family as possible and telling her he wanted her safe b/c he loved her. It was only after Shae refused to heed any of Tyrion's warnings(as if his public humiliation by the inbreed psychopath of a 'king' wasn't writing on the wall enough) that Tyrion tried another approach by calling her a wh.. and saying he never loved her to begin with. Now the reasons behind those words were so freakin obvious that taking them as face value is just poor writing in my opinion.

Another scene I didn't really like was Arya leaving the Hound to his own devices. At various moments she was pretty incisive about the Hounds motives and past traumas, so while never any kind of 'friendship' between the two atleast there seemed to be some kind of understanding. Arya refusing the Hound's final request for a quick death seemed unnecessary cruel and not in line with her character. Really sucks b/c she was one of the few characters I had genuine sympathy with.

In general I found the season finale pretty disappointing. I found Tywin an intriguing character I loved to hate but now..gone as well. Him sleeping with Shae(espescially in light of everything that happened) made no sense either.

Still curious where they take the story but damn..this episode casts an ugly shadow.

 

[Silvanus]

Well, you know what I mean - This hyped up fantasy character. That one White Walker at the end of Season 2 had a classic fantasy look to him, but it was still completely in tone with the series. This girl and the old dude feel very out of place. Also the girl having an older person dub her voice stood out very heavily.

Oh, I know very much what you mean. I can handle fantasy, but the three-eyed raven and the Child should be rather more gothic fantasy than what we saw.

It was only after Shae refused to heed any of Tyrion's warnings(as if his public humiliation by the inbreed psychopath of a 'king' wasn't writing on the wall enough) that Tyrion tried another approach by calling her a wh.. and saying he never loved her to begin with. Now the reasons behind those words were so freakin obvious that taking them as face value is just poor writing in my opinion.

So long as GRRM holds none of the blame for that, I'll be happy-- most of your problems with how the Tywin/Tyrion drama played out are a fairly direct result of changes made in the show.

[Tywin] sleeping with Shae(espescially in light of everything that happened) made no sense either.

Well, it makes sense if we consider that Tywin is a colossal hypocrite.

 

[stroopwafel]

Well, it makes sense if we consider that Tywin is a colossal hypocrite.

Yeah, I meant it more from Shae's perspective. First she fails to see Tyrions attempts to alienate himself from her was his last desperate attempt to get her out of King's Landing(which couldn't be any more blatantly obvious), then she gets to witness his family's malice first hand while for no reason contributing to her former lovers execution by betraying him on his 'trial' to subsequently sleep with the head patriarch like a gullible fool.

Now if they never developed the relationship between Tyrion and Shae or developed it differently I wouldn't have a problem with it, but the way Shae turned out now just seemed wildly inconsistent. Which I think is a particular bummer for a show that has otherwise good writing.

I haven't read the books so I don't know how closely the TV show follows the original story but otherwise I'd say this turn of events was just a convenient and lazy way to ditch a character while making the 'underdog' even more tragic/angry/grumpy.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Yeah I found Shae's betrayal of Tyrion really inconsistent with her character as well. I was genuinely surprised when that happened. For starters time and again Tyrion tried to get Shae out of King's Landing and as far away from his fucked up family as possible and telling her he wanted her safe b/c he loved her. It was only after Shae refused to heed any of Tyrion's warnings(as if his public humiliation by the inbreed psychopath of a 'king' wasn't writing on the wall enough) that Tyrion tried another approach by calling her a wh.. and saying he never loved her to begin with. Now the reasons behind those words were so freakin obvious that taking them as face value is just poor writing in my opinion.

It's also that when you see her arrive at Tyrion's trail as a witness to humiliate him, you're waiting for that penny to drop... That scene where we get to see who's pulling her strings and making her say these things she obviously doesn't mean. But no, apparently she never loved Tyrion at all, and she was just a conniving person who was in cahoots with Tywin.

That's why there were so many scenes from her perspective where she's worried about Tyrion and Sansa, or that scene where she's glad to see Sansa's sheets are clean after her and Tyrion's wedding night. No wait, that was all to trick Tyrion. Riiiiiight.

Because I mean, if it was all genuine but she felt jilted after that, as you said, "freakin obvious" ploy, she must be the dumbest fucking person on the face of the planet. Even Sam wouldn't fall for that.

Another scene I didn't really like was Arya leaving the Hound to his own devices. At various moments she was pretty incisive about the Hounds motives and past traumas, so while never any kind of 'friendship' between the two atleast there seemed to be some kind of understanding. Arya refusing the Hound's final request for a quick death seemed unnecessary cruel and not in line with her character. Really sucks b/c she was one of the few characters I had genuine sympathy with.

There's definately too many bonding moments between the two for her to just leave him there. It's a very reluctant companionship, but nearly every scene between them in this season sees them growing more comfortable and accepting of one another, and watching eachother's back during rough patches. And then at the end Arya just lets him die an agonizingly slow death. Really?!

There goes my sympathy for her plight.

 

[Silvanus]

I haven't read the books so I don't know how closely the TV show follows the original story but otherwise I'd say this turn of events was just a convenient and lazy way to ditch a character while making the 'underdog' even more tragic/angry/grumpy.

It does seem that way in the show, and it's a real shame. They developed the romantic aspect of Tyrion and Shae's relationship in the show far more than they did in the books, and it's not turned out well for them at all.

There's definately too many bonding moments between the two for her to just leave him there. It's a very reluctant companionship, but nearly every scene between them in this season sees them growing more comfortable and accepting of one another, and watching eachother's back during rough patches. And then at the end Arya just lets him die an agonizingly slow death. Really?!

There goes my sympathy for her plight.

Theirs was always a partnership of necessity, though. Arya never forgave the Hound for murdering Mycah. In the show, they tried to remind us (and show-Arya) of his immorality with the scene in which he lies and robs the old guy's home.

Still, the main point is that Arya is not a kind or forgiving person. Her grief has made her vengeful. In fact...

Spoiler: Spoiler for A Storm Of Swords, for a scene which has almost certainly been cut from the show.

...when Arya is with them, the Brotherhood Without Banners meet up with an old lady who tells them her dreams in exchange for a song. They call her the "ghost of High Heart", which is the hill where she hangs out. Supposedly, her dreams are portentous, but it's ambiguous how seriously the Brotherhood actually take them.

When Arya approaches her, the ghost shrinks away from her and calls her "dark heart". I think it's meant to illustrate that under the surface, Arya is a lot more miserable, furious, and potentially hateful than she often seems.

 

[Casual Shinji]

There's definately too many bonding moments between the two for her to just leave him there. It's a very reluctant companionship, but nearly every scene between them in this season sees them growing more comfortable and accepting of one another, and watching eachother's back during rough patches. And then at the end Arya just lets him die an agonizingly slow death. Really?!

There goes my sympathy for her plight.

Theirs was always a partnership of necessity, though. Arya never forgave the Hound for murdering Mycah. In the show, they tried to remind us (and show-Arya) of his immorality with the scene in which he lies and robs the old guy's home.

Still, the main point is that Arya is not a kind or forgiving person. Her grief has made her vengeful. In fact...

Spoiler: Spoiler for A Storm Of Swords, for a scene which has almost certainly been cut from the show.

...when Arya is with them, the Brotherhood Without Banners meet up with an old lady who tells them her dreams in exchange for a song. They call her the "ghost of High Heart", which is the hill where she hangs out. Supposedly, her dreams are portentous, but it's ambiguous how seriously the Brotherhood actually take them.

When Arya approaches her, the ghost shrinks away from her and calls her "dark heart". I think it's meant to illustrate that under the surface, Arya is a lot more miserable, furious, and potentially hateful than she often seems.

Yeah, but the "lone wolf and cub" vibe was very strong with these characters. Arya is a vengeful person, sure, but apart from that one rock scene in Season 3, she never attempts to kill the Hound. In fact she even wants to make sure he properly dresses his wounds. Why would she care about that if he can just drop dead without her batting an eye?

And if Arya is not a kind and forgiving person there's really nothing left to her character anymore. The whole hook behind her character is that she's this awesome little firecracker who sees her family get stripped away from her one at a time. She has a mean streak, but she has a heart of gold and she's loyal. And it's because of this that we want to see her succeed in exacting her vengeance. With that gone there's nothing to care about anymore.

 

[stroopwafel]

Yeah, my impression is the writers want to take liberties with the story and characters while still adhering to pivotal story moments in the books which can then become...well grossly incongruent. Rather had the show less rigid in its approach which would allow for far better writing.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Don't know why ya'll people hatin' so much, I freaking loved it! A couple of things I had spoiled for me, like Tysha never being mentioned, and a couple of disappointments happened, but by the end of the episode I was gasping for air. This blows the S3 finale out of the water, though season 2's finale still reigns supreme for me.

- Brienne vs. the Hound might have been something out of a fan fiction, but goddamn was it cool. And brutal, Holy Jesus! I also really liked that they didn't go the "Character A meets important character B without recognizing them" route, but had Brienne recognize Arya.

- Daenerys' ending for this season was a nice contrast to the whole messiah thing n S3. Hopefully they'll manage to keep her interesting in season 5 as well.

- I actually like Jojen dead, since it very much eliminates a lot of the moping from parts that are to come, and gives Meera's character something about her in future seasons. Well, it might still be moping, but at least well justified moping.

- Maisie Williams proves again to be the best casting choice on the show. Her emotionless stare during the Hound's dying words IMO really captured her deterioration as a sane person without any words; it's not said in the show, but in the books it's stated she no longer even remembers what the butcher's boy or even the men in Harrenhal looked like. There's no peace for her in vengeance, no tears to be shed over lost companions, no return to a happy existence. There's just bottomless, cold hate.

- Tyrion's escape felt a wee bit quick, I'll admit. I wish they'd made it somehow clear he was condemned to the same cells as Ned Stark and played with that. His and Jaime's goodbyes could have used a lot more screen time. But on the other hand I really liked the exchange between Tyrion and Shae was left completely silent, and IMO they handled her death as best as they could considering how different her character is in the show. I was also surprised they really had Tywin die on the potty, and glad they left out the "...Tywin Lannister did not shit gold" part. It may have been a pinch of black humor in the books, but in the series it would have been like a baboon painted in rainbow colors flinging shit everywhere in the middle of a funeral.

Overall, I really liked this finale, and this season overall. Maybe even better than season 3.

 

[Silvanus]

Yeah, but the "lone wolf and cub" vibe was very strong with these characters. Arya is a vengeful person, sure, but apart from that one rock scene in Season 3, she never attempts to kill the Hound. In fact she even wants to make sure he properly dresses his wounds. Why would she care about that if he can just drop dead without her batting an eye?

Well, one good reason is that she would otherwise be left alone, without a protector, in the war-torn Riverlands. A protector was sorely needed.

And if Arya is not a kind and forgiving person there's really nothing left to her character anymore. The whole hook behind her character is that she's this awesome little firecracker who sees her family get stripped away from her one at a time. She has a mean streak, but she has a heart of gold and she's loyal. And it's because of this that we want to see her succeed in exacting her vengeance. With that gone there's nothing to care about anymore.

She's very much loyal in some ways-- that's why she would never forget her friend, who was murdered by the Hound.

Of course, I can't convince anybody to like a character. She remains a popular character, though, and I always thought the Hound to be an unrepentant, terrible human being. The two of them found some common ground during their time together, but it did not mean his crimes and his brutality were forgiven.

 

[stroopwafel]

Of course, I can't convince anybody to like a character. I care a great deal, though, and always thought the Hound to be a self-justifying murderer. The two of them found some common ground during their time together, but it did not mean his crimes and his brutality were forgiven.

Well, he was ofcourse but there are only so many ways a person can turn out when knowing only hate and spite. What made him slightly tragical in my opinion was that under his rapacious veneer there was a fading sense of regret that life turned out so shit for him. No excuse for the things he did ofcourse but the many times he protected Arya did seem to bring that to the surface more often.

The Hound seemed tired of his own disposition as the servant of an ungrateful piece-of-shit king as well with his whole change of 'fuck the king' demeanor which I think also made him more interesting. There was want for change, but the Hound had seen too much and suffered too much.

 

[rcs619]

So, let's talk about it folks! Spoilers ahoy!
I am... surprisingly somewhat disappointed with the finale. Mainly because it had a number of "What an actual fuck?!" moments.
First of all Daenerys. So, Dany just lets one of her dragons to simply fly around and crisp people to death? And she's not aware of that? And she's not aware where that dragon is?!
Second, Stannis. How the fuck did he get his army across the wall?! It was still somewhat believable with one army coming from the front, but then he got second army coming from behind?! FREAKING HOW?! Please, if it's explained in book, tell me! I'm incredibly curious about that matter.
And lastly, Arya. Arya was my favorite character in the show, but now she is somewhat ruined for me. I always thought that Arya's motivation was all about justice. She's a screwed up kid, sure, but her moral compass always seemed to be firm. But the way she simple left Hound to die was completely out of her character. And it's especially jarring because I had an impression that she and Hound genuinely cared about each other, in their very own weird way. That move wasn't anti-heroish, as I perceived Arya, it was simply villainous. Now Arya looks just like a psycho to me and it is a shame.

Of course, there was a lot of other cool stuff in the episode, like incredible fight between Hound and Brienne, but these three moments kinda defined the whole episode to me.

Your turn people.

Dany: To be fair, it's a half-feral, flying, fire-breathing reptile roughly the size of a small horse. Short of chaining him up, there's basically no way for Dany to NOT have him flying around, basically doing whatever he wants and giving no fucks because, well, dragon.

A lot of the issue is from Danaerys (once again) being too naive and short-sighted to think ahead. She loves her dragons, she thinks they're great and that they're going to help her re-conquer her birthright one day. She also sees them as her children. What she doesn't see because of all that is that they're half-feral (especially Drogon) and she never took enough time to train them, because they're her kids and they totally wouldn't do anything bad like roasting innocent kids. It's like a woman with a mean, aggressive, untrained dog, but she's like "Oh, he wouldn't really bite you. He's sweet as can be around me." Even her ancestors' dragons were known to occasionally eat innocent people, and that's with a lifetime of training and handlers who actually knew what the heck they were doing. Danaerys has the best of intentions, she's just continually in way over her head and about half a step behind where she needs to be.

Granted, locking away the two dragons who actually seem mellow enough to behave is not good either. But this is Danerys. She doesn't think things out very far ahead and tends to overreact to things. The sounds they made as she left really were heart-wrenching though.

Stannis: The same way the wildlings usually get to the other side of the wall, they just went around it. The wall stretches from one end of the continent to the other, but it ends where the land ends. It's totally possible to just go to either end and ride a boat around. That's why the only three forts still manned by the Night's Watch are Castle Black (in the middle) and the fort located on each far end. The only reason Mance didn't do that is because he just didn't have the logistical support to move his army around by boat. Not to mention it would add months and months onto his timetable and would cause him to lose even more of his people along the trek.

Stannis on the other had has boats now (he got the money to hire Salador Saan again), and he's got a couple thousand knights under his command (not to mention the mercs he hired), so he boated them over behind the wall and rode like hell to get there.

Arya: She was never about idealism and justice. Her main motivation is anger and revenge, and as she's been exposed to the unrelenting harshness of the world, she's become more and more accustomed to thinking that the ends justify the means so long as it gets her closer to her revenge. Do the people on her list generally deserve to die? Absolutely. But is she willing to toss other people under the bus to get into stabbing range of them? Over time, yes, she's getting there. Especially hanging out with the Hound for so long. This is also probably why she's actually got a decent chance of surviving. Out of ALL the Starks, she's the only dang one who's willing to forget about honor and idealism, and actually focus on getting things done. Honor killed Ned and Catlyn. Idealism killed Robb and has kept Sansa on the edge of a knife for the entire series. Jon Snow is a chip off his dad's ole block, so that lowers his survival chances significantly. Arya though, she's become perfectly willing to work in shades of gray if it means getting what she wants.

I think it's important to note the the Hound was never a good guy. This is a guy that feels literally zero remorse for killing anyone who gets in his way, or inconveniences him in some way, or that he was simply ordered to kill. He has some depth to him, and some aspects that make you sympathetic towards him, but he was never a good guy, and he never had any truly redeeming moments like Jaime. Did he and Arya develop some sort of mutual respect and working relationship? Yes. But Arya never forgot who he was or what he's done either, or that he really only helped her because it would have benefited him in the end.