Game of Thrones Season 7 discussion thread. (SPOILERS ABOUND)
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That mostly depends on Stannis being present to guarantee it. If not and a bunch of horny soldiers drunk on victory found them without Stannis knowing of them yet, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't pass up helping themselves to some highborn ladies in the heat of the moment. Stannis might punish the culprits afterwards, but that wouldn't help the victims then and there.inu-kun said:
Also, remember Cersei knows about the last time a rebellion took King's Landing and how that went down for the women and children. She feared it enough to poison herself and her children.
There are no Trolls in this world, you are referring to Giants.trunkage said:
But to be fair, Trolls and Giants are usually intertwined in their portrayals. Giants though tend to look more Human looking.
I mean what you're saying is probably right, but I'm a simple idiot viewer, I need to be shown that. They could have cut Samwell's puke-track Montage short and included some explanationerttheking said:
Jaime: "Well, our forces at Dragonstone should be able to hold for at least a day or two. "
Cersei:"..."
Jaime: "You never put forces on Dragonstone, did you? "
Cersei: "I was busy!"
Edit: and also, if she is such a shit tactician, how does she know that? Just tell me that her spies or lookouts saw a dwarf moving around on the boat or something! They make it seem like she was watching the show and that's how they know that stuff
True. I hate to beat an old drum but "the books did it better." At least, if the books are going this path, it's up in the air right now.DrownedAmmet said:
In the books, Stannis left a garrison at both Dragon Stone and Storm's End, 300 at Storm's End and around fifty or so at Dragon Stone. 2,000 men, led by Loras Tyrell, were meant to take it. Cersei intentionally gave command to Loras in the hopes that he would do something stupid and get himself killed. She mostly got her wish. Instead of sieging the palace, he opted to storm it. 1,000 men died, most of them knights who were loyal to Tommen, and Loras was indeed put on death's door, so any forces left there would mainly be Tyrell forces who would have little interest in holding it if the explosion in King's Landing still happens in the books. Hell, the Tyrells were also sieging Storm's End at the time, and when they learned that Margarie had been arrested, they abandoned the siege to head back to King's Landing. So in the books, for the time being, Stannis' forces still hold Storm's End, but not Dragon Stone.
Plus there's also the fact that, in the books, Lannister forces couldn't get to Dragonstone even if they wanted to, as Cersei gave command of the royal navy to a bastard who she had the hots for because he vaguely resembled Rhaegar Targaryen, and when she was arrested by the Faith of the Seven, he decided to take the entire royal navy and go pirating. Yeah in the books, Cersei utterly went off the deep end (Burned the Tower of the Hand to the ground because she thought Tyrion was in the walls) and dug herself a damn deep hole.
Books have been much better for the past like four seasons, but the show easily could have been less worse if they just explained why stuff happened.erttheking said:
Like excluding the Dragonstone stuff makes sense for the show so they don't have to spend all that money on something that could be resolved a bit simpler, but they should throw us a fricken bone and tell us why
I shouldn't have to rely on "Cersei is an idiot" to fill in plot holes
Okay so the first episode has been released and well it's just a theory but i think the prophecy that Cersie will be killed by her younger brother is going to happen via arya stark taking identity of Jamie because even though Jamie is a changed man he still can't take up th courage to kill Cersie himself.
What you guys think about my theory?
What you guys think about my theory?
Well look, it's a TV show not a book. You can't possibly explain every single detail in a TV show like you can in the books. You just don't have the time for it. The books already have a lot more side-story on Dragonstone that the show didn't get time for. I'm sure the books will have a round-up of the sparrow storyline. If you want the full story, read the books. It's not really an indictment for the show to gloss over certain things, because every TV show does that.RiseOfTheWhiteWolf said:
That said, I think the first episode was a bit liberal in its use of time. I don't mean like Baelish's teleportation device or anything, I mean screen time that it devoted to actual plot points. Not a fat lot happened in that episode. I was expecting a bit more pace considering we've only got seven episodes per season now. It was a setup episode, sure, and not a bad one. But this is the seventh season; do we really need more setup? Think right back to episode 1 season 1; that was a setup episode, and that still managed to provide a bunch of genuine plot points that moved things forward. We're beyond the point of need for a setup; we needed to get the pace going again.
It's more likely that they'll end up fighting over it for most of the season and then only team up right at the end.Samtemdo8 said:
I expect:AlbeliSasha said:
Jaime does kill Cersei once she goes full Mad King and threatens to burn down King's Landing rather than let Daenaerys conquer it, because it would be almost painful from a narrative perspective if he didn't re-enact the defining moment of his life while turning on the love of his life. Then he gets killed by the Mountain or maybe commits suicide or something.
Arya will try to kill Cersei, but will end up fighting the Mountain, resulting in the most one-sided swordfight in history right up until Arya wins because she's great.
Arya will try to kill Cersei, but will end up fighting the Mountain, resulting in the most one-sided swordfight in history right up until Arya wins because she's great.
I would be expecting a scene where some peasants come out rioting at the gates and chanting "ey, you *****, you blew up the Sept of Baelor and killed like two hundred people" and then Cersei sics the Mountain on them or something. And Jaime is watching and being clearly uncomfortable, but Cersei's all "mwa ha ha evil queen gloat."DrownedAmmet said:
I mean, I can assume that all of that happened off-screen, but it's weird that the show would skip over it.
That whole scene was bizarre to me. I mean, sure, it was a great scene. There's no dialogue, just Dany slowly walking up to the place of her birth to signify her seizing her heritage. Scenery porn and such.DrownedAmmet said:
But...there are no guards? None of Stannis' old bannermen? Not even a token force of servants left to keep the place clean? No bandits or squatters going "hey, this is a huge fucking castle, maybe we can hide out the winter here?" No Lannisters? Why was it abandoned? If it was abandoned, how is it so clean?
And what if it wasn't abandoned? Daenaerys just lands on one boat with like, four guards, and starts walking. With her chief general, her spymaster, and her Hand all just following along in one convenient group. If there had been a few guys with crossbows manning that gate, Daenaerys' invasion would have been decapitated before it began.
It needed a scene where some leftover Stannis bannermen see the fleet coming in and very quickly piss off.
What about a scene in which three fucking massive dragons fly over the castle prior to them landing. I mean yeah it didn;t show it in detail but frankly if I was the part of the small remaining force that held that castle and I saw three massive dragons fly over I may just have enough time to change my breeches before I fucked right off.
You can also take in to consideration that it is made very clear that Stannis is not a loved leader, he is followed because his mean respect his ability to lead (well in the books, in the TV show he goes full retard) but chances are once he died whatever men he had, especially the ones left at the castle would have grabbed what they could and would have fucked off.
As to why Cersei never made a move on Dragonstone despite Stannis having been dead for a good while. Well I am sure it's made clear throughout the books that the location isn;t actually worth anything, Stannis bemoans his appointment there constantly seeing it as a slight rather than an honour, so that suggests it has very little in the way of tactical advantage, especially since the bulk of her forces were actually Tyrell men and those that aren't are more likely to be shoring up defence around King's Landing rather than trying to hold a tactically worthless castle.
Of course you then have Cersei going total mad. She's surrounded on all sides by enemies who could march over land to get to her, her enemies derive their supply chain from the lands that surround them so what does she do, teams up with a group of people well know for sucking hard when it comes to land based combat but they do have a huge amount of ships... great except that the ships are next to worthless if all your enemies need to do is march to your gates. Of course in the books Euron has a trump card that so far hasn't been mentioned in the TV show.
Yeah Jamie was way too calm around Cersei at this point of the season because for fuck's sake Cersei is responsible for killing their Uncle Kevan Lannister (and there have been points where Jaime shown some care for his Uncle) and her actions drove Tomman to suicide.RiseOfTheWhiteWolf said:
As someone who generally hates what the show has become and thinks the writers are abominable hacks, it was a reasonably entertaining episode. Some solid scenes. Some reasonably restrained writing. I generally went in for the "slower" episodes though. Season One was by far the best, and there was a lot of whining about "not enough happening".
Doesn't mean there wasn't some stupid stuff though.
Doesn't mean there wasn't some stupid stuff though.
1. Arya's assassination of House Frey. A continuation of last season's "stupid money shot", with the girl assassin being all COOL and BAD ASS and GETTIN' VENGEANCE. This kind of hollow fan-wankery is everything A Song of Ice and Fire was written to be the anti-thesis of. The show began losing its way when it abandoned complex political scheming and grey-grey morality for HEROIC MOMENTS and BADASS ACTION. Often personified in the trainwreck Arya has turned into.
2. This Euron. I cannot say enough bad things about how badly this show bungled the Iron Born right from the get-go, but this Euron is the reeking cherry on top of the cake. Theon was good, and well cast. Everything else has been a calamity. The Iron Born were often problematic in later ASOIAF volumes, often given to boggy chapters and an introduction of ancillary characters when the books needed to be tightening their scope. Alas, as with Dorne, the show scuttles this opportunity to lean things up by reimagining them as something ridiculously stupid. I know there are a few people out there who legitimately believe the show improves on the books. I point to the Iron Born as exhibit A and ask "What the fuck are you talking about".
3. Jaime's blithe acceptance of Cersei's obvious lunacy is bizarrely out of character and kind of dashes his entire arc against the floor, but I'm kind of used to it by now.
4. Abandoned Dragonstone is silly. Even if Stannis packed up his entire household right down to the cooks and maids to go to the Wall, I'd have imagined Kings Landing would have dispatched a force to take the empty keep. It has significant strategic value. Oh well.
HOWEVER...
All is forgiven as the Sandford Chief of Police has joined the cast. A GREAT BIG BUSHY BEARD.
2. This Euron. I cannot say enough bad things about how badly this show bungled the Iron Born right from the get-go, but this Euron is the reeking cherry on top of the cake. Theon was good, and well cast. Everything else has been a calamity. The Iron Born were often problematic in later ASOIAF volumes, often given to boggy chapters and an introduction of ancillary characters when the books needed to be tightening their scope. Alas, as with Dorne, the show scuttles this opportunity to lean things up by reimagining them as something ridiculously stupid. I know there are a few people out there who legitimately believe the show improves on the books. I point to the Iron Born as exhibit A and ask "What the fuck are you talking about".
3. Jaime's blithe acceptance of Cersei's obvious lunacy is bizarrely out of character and kind of dashes his entire arc against the floor, but I'm kind of used to it by now.
4. Abandoned Dragonstone is silly. Even if Stannis packed up his entire household right down to the cooks and maids to go to the Wall, I'd have imagined Kings Landing would have dispatched a force to take the empty keep. It has significant strategic value. Oh well.
HOWEVER...
All is forgiven as the Sandford Chief of Police has joined the cast. A GREAT BIG BUSHY BEARD.
I'm fine with extrapolating that, but just like the the absence of any visible reactions to Cersei blowing up the biggest cathedral on the continent, it's one of those things that I would want to see happening. It wouldn't take much; a couple of establishing shots at the start of both scenes, a minute or so long at most. Considering how much screentime was spent on Daenaerys' very slow walk up into the castle, they could've afforded that.Laughing Man said:
It isn't tactically worthless. They mention in that very episode that Dragonstone is a vital strategic point guarding the entrance to Blackwater Bay [http://i.imgur.com/QFMQ1ux.jpg?1] and therefore all maritime trade entering King's Landing. It just doesn't produce any food, because it's a castle on a rock in the middle of the ocean.Laughing Man said:
I can understand Cersei not having the forces to retake it - in the books, the Tyrells are still on her good side when she sends Loras off to go capture it - but if it's empty, she wouldn't need any forces to retake it. She could retake it with twelve guys and a boat.
I mean, even if every other power player in the series decided to ignore it, I would expect some pirates to be holed up in there, at least. It'd be an ideal location for raiding shipping routes. Shit, why didn't the Ironborn think of that? They could park their entire fleet there and hold the whole kingdom for ransom.
Dorne was a colossal failure on the showrunner's part and the absolute nadir of the entire series, and the writers knew it. But as to what caused it, it was a combination of two things. Firstly, they'd made the conscious decision to break from the books at that point because the books themselves have atrocious pacing during that period and they knew they were about to outrun the plot. Secondly, their shooting schedule was terrible; they found themselves rushing to film all the Dorne scenes while they still had summer, writing the entire arc basically as they went and struggling to negotiate what parts of some ancient medieval Spanish palace they were allowed to film in.RiseOfTheWhiteWolf said:
The end result was that the writers didn't have time to write a decent plot, they didn't know what the set was going to look like when writing a scene, and the actors had no time to train fight choreography to make the fights look convincing. The end result was one of the dumbest time-wasting story arcs in the entire series, where every character was bloodthirsty and/or stupid and the entire point of the arc was undone at the end of it by some gratuitous murder. They'd have done better cutting Dorne entirely and sending Jaime and Bronn off to the Riverlands early, because that part of Jaime's character arc is actually interesting.
As for Stannis, well...I have no idea what the showrunners wanted to do with Stannis and I have no idea what GRR was planning to do with Stannis. Stannis had been written into a corner where he either did something stupid - like attack Winterfell in winter - and died, or he just hung around the Wall diverting attention from other characters.
Really, I'd just advise that anyone watching the show skip season five entirely. Season six is way better.
BloatedGuppy said:
What grated on me about that scene was that we'd already had our moment of cathartic vengeance. She'd fed Walder his sons and cut his throat at the end of the last season. Having a scene where she just kills every remaining member of his extended family seemed gratuitous.
It's exactly that kind of predictable plotting that the book was infamous for ignoring. GRR Martin doesn't care about your catharsis. He'll kill your favourite character, then have all the characters seeking revenge stabbed to death at a wedding by their friends. There's no destiny in ASOIAF, there's just people fucking over other people because of the fucking those people did and sometimes getting fucked themselves before they can accomplish an emotionally satisfying level of fuckery.
Classic case in point: Arya's kill list. So far, in the show she's killed a grand total of two people on her dozen-or-so-long hit list, and about half of them have been killed for her by other characters in completely unrelated schemes that Arya was not involved with at all. In the books, she doesn't even kill those two; Walder Frey is still alive and Meryn Trant just kinda disappeared. The whole point of Arya's kill list is that she isn't destined to go on some murder rampage like John Wick; she's just fantasising about it while all those people get killed in unrelated situations through a confluence of dumb luck and blind scheming.
It's exactly that kind of predictable plotting that the book was infamous for ignoring. GRR Martin doesn't care about your catharsis. He'll kill your favourite character, then have all the characters seeking revenge stabbed to death at a wedding by their friends. There's no destiny in ASOIAF, there's just people fucking over other people because of the fucking those people did and sometimes getting fucked themselves before they can accomplish an emotionally satisfying level of fuckery.
Classic case in point: Arya's kill list. So far, in the show she's killed a grand total of two people on her dozen-or-so-long hit list, and about half of them have been killed for her by other characters in completely unrelated schemes that Arya was not involved with at all. In the books, she doesn't even kill those two; Walder Frey is still alive and Meryn Trant just kinda disappeared. The whole point of Arya's kill list is that she isn't destined to go on some murder rampage like John Wick; she's just fantasising about it while all those people get killed in unrelated situations through a confluence of dumb luck and blind scheming.
^ The thing is the writers are now trying to make Arya more and more like Lady Stoneheart from the books.
She's so revenge hungry she's killing everyone even remotely responsible for wronging her.
She's so revenge hungry she's killing everyone even remotely responsible for wronging her.
Northern Kingdoms Arc: Jon Snow got Sam's message and news of Dany's summons. So he rides for Dragonstone to negotiate with Dany and the preview to the next episode shows he arrives there without struggle. Arya is now heading directly to Winterfell after hearing what happened in the North and Jon Snow is King.
King's Landing Arc: Cersei gathers remaining Lords to join against Dany's army. That creepy preist guy that serves her constructs a giant Ballista at the weapon to kill the Dragons. Jaime convinces Lord Tarly to join him as his general despite misgivings since the Tarlys have close realtions with the Tyrells.
Samwell Tarly is helping Jorah Mormont in possibly curing or stopping his Grey Scale permenantly.
And the climax is Theon/Yara's fleet is destroyed by Euron's army with Yara and the Dorne lady that killed Cersei's daughter got captured.
Now I am most curious about the Dany/Jon alliance because the Northern Lords are very concerned and mistrusts the fact that Jon is asking help from a Targaryan, and that a Lannister is Dany's hand.
The obvious outcome is Dany agrees to help Jon with the North (and with the insistance of Melisandre) to deal with the White Walkers, but first has to bend the knee and deal with Cersei which means mustering Northern Armies to the South.
Sadly no update on Bran Stark's story.
King's Landing Arc: Cersei gathers remaining Lords to join against Dany's army. That creepy preist guy that serves her constructs a giant Ballista at the weapon to kill the Dragons. Jaime convinces Lord Tarly to join him as his general despite misgivings since the Tarlys have close realtions with the Tyrells.
Samwell Tarly is helping Jorah Mormont in possibly curing or stopping his Grey Scale permenantly.
And the climax is Theon/Yara's fleet is destroyed by Euron's army with Yara and the Dorne lady that killed Cersei's daughter got captured.
Now I am most curious about the Dany/Jon alliance because the Northern Lords are very concerned and mistrusts the fact that Jon is asking help from a Targaryan, and that a Lannister is Dany's hand.
The obvious outcome is Dany agrees to help Jon with the North (and with the insistance of Melisandre) to deal with the White Walkers, but first has to bend the knee and deal with Cersei which means mustering Northern Armies to the South.
Sadly no update on Bran Stark's story.
And alsoSamtemdo8 said:
Arya stopped in and had mead and some Hot Pie. Skipping from Mormont's treatment to chicken pot pie was brilliant editing. Hot Pie tells Arya about John's good fortune so rather than heading straight to King's Landing, she heads home. Along the way, she gets surrounded by a pack of wolves, led by Nymeria! The dire wolf doesn't join her but doesn't eat her either. Whether we see the wolf and her pack again is anyone's guess.