Well the only logical thing he can do now is make his way back to Dany and Tyrion to report what happened to the Fleet.RiseOfTheWhiteWolf said:
But I feel this is setting up his reunion with Jon Snow, Arya, and Bran.
Game of Thrones Season 7 discussion thread. (SPOILERS ABOUND)
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But I feel this is setting up his reunion with Jon Snow, Arya, and Bran.
Probably because the showrunners are doing with this show is a vanity experiment by making scenes to show off the actor's emotive facial expressions.RiseOfTheWhiteWolf said:
But anyways to be fair I feel this perticular instance is not that poorly handled.
I mean look at the situation, the fleet is lost, he is outnumbered, his sisters is held hostage by their Uncle. He attacks him their both dead, he kills him, the soldiers still loyal to Euron will kill them both.
He's basically living to fight another day.
Funny thing is the book Theon/Reek looks like he will meet his end through execution by Stannis who is still alive at the moment.
Well I'm glad things aren't going to be a cakewalk for Dany, and I'm super glad that we're down two Sand Snakes. I like Euron if only for killing those two. Still salty about the lack of Victarion Greyjoy though.
Overall it was a decent episode, though I have a couple of problems. That a ballista is apparently the anti-dragon weapon of choice, when in the books it was established that that only works if you can get them in the eye, something that's a wee bit tricky to do. I also think Tyrion should've been more pissed about his niece being killed, and Sansa SERIOUSLY needs to stop contradicting Jon in front of the other lords, I thought it was established way back in season 3 that that was a no no. And the Sand Snakes and their mommy continue to be walking, talking cringe. Thank fuck two of them are dead now.
The rest was pretty good though.
Overall it was a decent episode, though I have a couple of problems. That a ballista is apparently the anti-dragon weapon of choice, when in the books it was established that that only works if you can get them in the eye, something that's a wee bit tricky to do. I also think Tyrion should've been more pissed about his niece being killed, and Sansa SERIOUSLY needs to stop contradicting Jon in front of the other lords, I thought it was established way back in season 3 that that was a no no. And the Sand Snakes and their mommy continue to be walking, talking cringe. Thank fuck two of them are dead now.
The rest was pretty good though.
Hoo boy we saw what she was like with that sister who gave here the beat down at the behest of the Grand Sparrow god only knows what she is going to do to the women who killed her daughter.
Like what? I mean it's great to sit at the side lines and call the writing crap but so far they seem to have done a fairly ok job of showing someone who is clearly suffering from extreme PTSD as for his sister treating him like crap, well they've been like that from the very first scene in which we see them together.
I'd call being able to keep it together in an ambush and only cracking when all is lost a pretty big step taken on the road to recovery. And you'd watch a drama? Game of Thrones IS a drama.RiseOfTheWhiteWolf said:
As for Asha, she's an iron born. Tough love is the norm.
Overall, it was an a'ight episode. Kind of the norm for Thrones, a lot of setup that will (hopefully) payoff later. They've been VERY good at rewarding the setups in each season so far. I'm a touch worried that without Martin's writing, HBO is going to go into "Plot Armor" mode to make sure all the fan favorites survive to some climatic battle at the end of the series but I'll hold that judgment until we get the rest of the season.
Although I do agree that i really don't like what they've done with Theon/Reek. If they were meant to show him fleeing because the battle was lost, they did a poor job of conveying that as he basically went into a "Saving Private Ryan" shell-shocked moment. If they were meant to show his PTSD popping back up, they did a poor job of conveying that as having him fight and slaughter a bunch of soldiers right before it wouldn't make sense. It feels like they're trying to keep him useful but still want him to be able to turn into a blubbering coward when they need one.
To keep with SPR, I wish they'd have actually had him act like Opum. That would have made WAY more sense in my mind.
Basically have him hide on the ship, too afraid to help until his uncle calls him out, in which case then he bolts for the side of the ship.
Although I do agree that i really don't like what they've done with Theon/Reek. If they were meant to show him fleeing because the battle was lost, they did a poor job of conveying that as he basically went into a "Saving Private Ryan" shell-shocked moment. If they were meant to show his PTSD popping back up, they did a poor job of conveying that as having him fight and slaughter a bunch of soldiers right before it wouldn't make sense. It feels like they're trying to keep him useful but still want him to be able to turn into a blubbering coward when they need one.
To keep with SPR, I wish they'd have actually had him act like Opum. That would have made WAY more sense in my mind.
Basically have him hide on the ship, too afraid to help until his uncle calls him out, in which case then he bolts for the side of the ship.
Because GOT isn't a drama?
Ahhh so in one post you believe you know what they are trying to do with Theon's character while then saying that they clearly don't know what they want to do with his character... really?
Lol typical I can complain about it but fuck if I can come up with a better solution. The great thing is if he suddenly turned round and became super Theon destroyer of white walkers, savour of Westeros, rider of Dragons and managed to some how regrow his cock, guess what you'd be sitting there complaining about how he doesn't seem to have struggled much with the trauma he went through at the hands of Ramsay Bolton.
Just remember you clearly said these folk that write him are 'inept' but when asked what YOU think they should do your answer is 'fuck, anything' their is a small difference between complaining that you don't like the direction something is going and full on calling someone inept at their job, the former doesn't require you to come up with any suggestion beyond stating that you don't like said direction the latter implies that since you believe these writers are inept you have at least some experience or basis on which to judge this so called level of ineptitude 'fuck, anything' isn't exactly the prime example of how he should be written I was expecting.
I am sure someone who remembers the previous episodes better than I do can no doubt recall some sort of call back, situation or statement that was made during that last scene where Euron had the axe to Asha's neck that matches something that Bolton said or did to Theon. The way it was shown was like whatever Euron said or did acted as a trigger to Theon.
No one said that, and you're getting awfully personal and hostile over people having differing opinions over a gorram TV show.RiseOfTheWhiteWolf said:
The biggest one for me was how after Theon and Yara steal his fleet, Euron scrounges up the resources to build an even BIGGER fleet, then manages to set a nighttime ambush that he wins easily. Like, I imagine it'd be possible for Euron to sneak up pretty easily because it's Ironborn ships sneaking up on other Ironborn ships, they all look the same, but how'd they know which ships to ram? Why didn't Yara have any warning? It shouldn't be that easy to hide hundreds of medieval warships out on the open sea.RiseOfTheWhiteWolf said:
Also, Sam not wearing a face mask while debriding Jorah's infected tissue. He's got a disease spread by skin-to-skin contact, Sam, you need to put yourself in a goddamn human condom. I'm also doubtful as to how the treatment would work; papillomaviruses like what greyscale appears to be aren't cured by debridement. The warts/calcifications just grow back. And what are the chances that Jorah would even survive having what looks like a good third of his skin removed by an amateur with a scalpel?
But I guess if Jorah's going to do anything other than die in a cell, he needs to get cured somehow. And I was glad to see two out of three Sand Snakes kick the bucket. My only complaint about that was that the evil rape pirates decide "hey, let's not rape these two ladies we just pirated," but I guess that'd be pretty harsh even for this show.
I disagree with it being complete shit. It's moving at a steady clip, which is an accomplishment for a plot of this size.RiseOfTheWhiteWolf said:
With Theon, I think it's pretty clear the writers are trying to show him suffering from really bad PTSD from his time with Ramsay. He's had at least one PTSD-esque breakdown last season, and they use the same cues this episode. So I imagine even Theon is pretty confused as to why he ran.
What I don't get is why the Tyrells and Sand Snakes at the start even want to go attack King's Landing. They don't need to attack King's Landing. Winter is coming, they hold Dragonstone and therefore control maritime trade into the bay, and they have the Tyrells who produce all the food on their side. They could just wait a few months and then waltz into the throne room to find the Mountain gnawing on Cersei's bones.
Also, Jon doesn't need to attend Dragonstone personally. He could send a letter, saying like "Hey, the last time a Stark went to a Targaryen's court, they got burnt alive. Maybe we can meet at the Eyrie? Oh, by the way, there's an army of dead guys coming south who can only be killed by fire or dragonglass, and you've got three dragons sitting on a mountain of dragonglass. Just sayin'. Tell Tyrion his beard makes him look taller! Jon out." *drops quill*
This one is a wallbanger for so many reasons. For one, no fleet of that size will be able to sneak up on anything, especially not in the age of sail, when the time from being spotted on the horizon to being close enough to shout is measured in hours if not days, depending on ships relative bearing and speed. Then we get into the trouble of just how exactly two massive fleets manage to do battle in the night when both fleets are medieval sail ships, with lanterns that at best illuminate their own deck. Since both fleets have ships of similar design and it is too dark to identify flags and sails, how do you know which ship to target? How do you even begin to guide yourself onto the opposing fleet when you can't see it? How did Euron's massive ass ship get into the middle of Yara's fleet?bastardofmelbourne said:
The entire scene was a disaster, not just from the massive contrivance of it all, but the fact that it was shot in the worst way possible short of using a handicam. Dark, shaky shots with quick cuts that just leaves the view disoriented. And Euron is basically Ramsay if Ramsay's actor had been chewing on all the scenery all the time.
I am going to chalk this up to Greyscale being a magical disease. Also, historically the idea of face masks to protect yourself from inhaling contaminants is a pretty recent invention. The masks that plague doctors/collectors wore, weren't so much to prevent infection as it was a way to keep scented herbs close to the wearers nose, to dampen the smell of decomposing bodies.bastardofmelbourne said:
I think the problem is, as with Sansa between Season 4 and 5, that the show supposedly gave Theon's PTSD-arc closure last season with Yara's "toughen up"-therapy, just as Sansa supposedly found her own agency at the end of Season 4. Then Sansa 360'd in Season 5 and went and married Ramsay for no fucking reason and was back to being a passive victim. And now Theon's PTSD is suddenly back. It feels less like coherent plot and more like "Shit, we can do more with that arc, let's dredge it up again!".bastardofmelbourne said:
Let's just agree that there's a lot of stupidity in Tyrion's war strategy. Like the fact that people dying from attacking dragons is bad supposedly. People dying from starvation in a prolonged siege is... alright? It is obvious that the whole "strategy" has more to do with the needs of the plot then any coherent in-world reason, which is a shame since Martin is a master at in-world justification even for his more outrageous plot developments.bastardofmelbourne said:
Gethsemani said:
To play devil's advocate with Euron's fleet sneaking up on Yara, it's been heavily implied in the books that he has some sort of magical power on his side. I get the feeling they were hinting at that in the show, which was why there was a thunderstorm behind his fleet. Of course, this means I get to beat the old drum of "the books did it better."bastardofmelbourne said:
And the thing about PTSD is that it NEVER goes away for good. It's always lurking there, kind of like depression, and it only takes the right circumstances to bring it back into the open. You can adjust well enough to function in day to day life, but a really bad situation (which I say Theon was more than in) can make you have another attack. I'm in the camp that, while it's clear Theon has come a long way from Reek, it's clear he's not who he used to be. He's a lot more timid and quiet, and while he can work himself up to be brave, it clearly takes a lot more effort than it used to. I think they handled it well.
And, in defense of Tyrion, a famine is a lot easier to remedy when you have the Tyrells on your side than dragons running wild and burning half of King's Landing to the ground. And that Dany really does need to press her claim on the Iron Throne, lest someone who isn't insane get a grip on Cersei or, worst case scenario, no one gets a hand on Cersei and she goes full mad king, complete with Wildfire all over King's Landing. That and, when you get down to it, when you're in a middle age war and you have a lot of vassals providing you troops, you need to end things quickly or they get fed up and leave. I imagine this being a massive problem, in particular, for the Dothraki.
Regarding Theon's PTSD, I mean the man has lost his fuckin penis, thats a permanant reminder that his PTSD is here to stay. And who knows what Euron is capable of if he captures his brother.erttheking said:
Now that you mention it, both of his recent PTSD attacks in the show have been after watching his sister making out with some ladies.Samtemdo8 said:
I always felt that was mean of Yara. Guy's lost his dick, do you have to keep flirting with every set of tits that wanders into your line of sight?
Episode 2 was a lot closer to the GoT of recent seasons, which is to say it was Very Stupid. There were some individually nice moments, like Nymeria's appearance at Arya's fire (and subsequent departure)...which is likely on-book...but the rest of it varied from faintly ridiculous to overtly insulting.
Dany's meeting with half of Westerosi society in the until-recently-abandoned Dragonstone was a stark reminder of how hilariously this show treats travel and distance. The Dornish contingent continue to be abominably bad actors (although the horrendous dialogue they're given certainly isn't priming them for success). And Euron...oh my word. This Euron. He's so, so incredibly bad. Laughably, risibly bad. From his 80's emo rock appearance to his scenery chewing and cackling and high-school drama emoting. He's so far off the version of Euron in the books he stands as a unique show creation, and like virtually every unique show creation stemming from Roz the travelling prostitute to Karl "The Fookin Legend of Gin Alley" Tanner, he's unbelievably amateur hour.
There have been some bits of dialogue here and there throughout the show's run that have been off-book and still sharp, so I'm hesitant to say that every writer working on the show is incompetent, but it's actually pretty close. Good thing the budget is high. Beautiful locales, high quality actors and lavish production values are working overtime at this point to cover up Xena-level story boarding and dialogue.
Dany's meeting with half of Westerosi society in the until-recently-abandoned Dragonstone was a stark reminder of how hilariously this show treats travel and distance. The Dornish contingent continue to be abominably bad actors (although the horrendous dialogue they're given certainly isn't priming them for success). And Euron...oh my word. This Euron. He's so, so incredibly bad. Laughably, risibly bad. From his 80's emo rock appearance to his scenery chewing and cackling and high-school drama emoting. He's so far off the version of Euron in the books he stands as a unique show creation, and like virtually every unique show creation stemming from Roz the travelling prostitute to Karl "The Fookin Legend of Gin Alley" Tanner, he's unbelievably amateur hour.
There have been some bits of dialogue here and there throughout the show's run that have been off-book and still sharp, so I'm hesitant to say that every writer working on the show is incompetent, but it's actually pretty close. Good thing the budget is high. Beautiful locales, high quality actors and lavish production values are working overtime at this point to cover up Xena-level story boarding and dialogue.
I've worked with my fair share of people suffering from PTSD, in fact I dare say that I'm far and away more knowledgeable about it then the average joe, due to how often I engage with it professionally. Yara's "treatment" of it was shit, as in counter-productive in real life shit, but the show showed us that it apparently worked. That's bullshit, but I can live with mental illness being portrayed badly in pop culture (because it happens all the time). The major problem for me is the way the show just rolls back story arcs it has finished so that it can re-tread them some more. Just as happened with Sansa and her agency or Melisandre and her faith, it now happened with Theon and his PTSD.erttheking said:
Either his trauma is long lasting and they don't finish the fucking arc or it can be solved and it was done at the end of last season by Yara abusing Reek until Theon came back. Just as with Sansa's wedding to Ramsay or Euron's magically appearing fleet the problem is that anything can happen if D&D decides it would be "good story". We can't even trust dramatic arcs or internal logic to set boundaries for what will happen, because the moment D&D needs something to be a certain way (Sansa marrying Ramsay, Euron getting a fleet, Jon becoming King, Cersei not caring for her own children, Dragonstone being empty) it will be so, even if it flies in the face of previous character development or known information about the world.
And technically, what Theon is suffering from is not as much PTSD as it is a generalized traumatization from repeated abuse. But that's just a nitpick.
I did get the feeling that I was severely out of my depth when I was talking to you in particularly about PTSD, since you work in a medical field, but since I'm stupid I'm gonna keep going.Gethsemani said:
I fully agree that Yara's treatment was crap, the Ironborn are based on Vikings, a people hardly known for their finesse in dealing with mental disorders. Though I still argue that Theon never really fully recovered from his trauma and that it shows a lot. The brash, arrogant Theon from the first two seasons is gone, and he's lost a certain amount of confidence. He's much more quiet and docile than he used to be, usually just standing by silently while Asha/Yara/whatever the fuck her name is takes charge. In the few scenes where he does take a stand, I always got the impression he was rather unsure of himself and it was taking a lot of active willpower on his part.
Now is the show repeating itself? Yeah, I won't lie, the Sansa example you picked out is a golden example of that. Mainly because putting Sansa at the Dreadfort was an utterly stupid move for Littlefinger, but Jeyne Poole wasn't in the show so the showrunners had to be stupid. But I'd argue it works in the case of Theon, if only because I still stand by it never came across him as fully recovering. At best, he's no longer Reek, but I'd say it was pretty clearly those wounds never truly healed, they just got more manageable.
Ah. Fair enough.
Fun stuff, but I have a pressing notion to discuss. Is it just me (yes, never "just you", whatever) or has something happened between seasons which instead of making Hot Pie hotter, made him pie-er? He's certainly enjoyed a last harvest or two. edit: well now that I've made some comparisons it seems it's just his hair that's larger... carry on
Ok so, is it possible for someone who has been castrated to become erect? I mean, kudos to Grey Worm for finally hooking up with his girl, but I thought the whole point of castration was to remove any ability/desire for sex?
Am I missing something about the biology of sexual arousal in men? I mean, I am one, but I have my balls, so I don't really know what it's like to not have them and still be into women.
Am I missing something about the biology of sexual arousal in men? I mean, I am one, but I have my balls, so I don't really know what it's like to not have them and still be into women.
It's actually mentioned in season 2 that they remove the entire penis (a penectomy) of the Unsullied, as well as the testicles. So Grey Worm literally has nothing down there but a big scar.Happyninja42 said:
Castration removes the production of testosterone, which I understand also basically kills the libido. But Grey Worm may nevertheless have very strong feelings for Missandei, because it's possible to care about someone without wanting to fuck them. Missandei, obviously, still wants to jump his nonexistant bones, which probably explains why he was so hesitant and uncomfortable in that sex scene; they're not precisely on the same page.
Now, all of that is different to what Theon has, because if I remember correctly Theon had his dick removed but not his balls. That would be the worst possible situation, since he would retain an adult male's libido but also be burdened with the sexual anxiety of literally not having a penis. He could still find fulfilling sexual relief if he was willing to get pegged, although I'm no 100% certain what the state of Westeros' sex toy industry is.
Also: we have fucking spambots in our Game of Thrones threads now? Is there no level to which these monsters will not stoop?!
Ah, I missed that bit.bastardofmelbourne said:
Yes I'm aware it's possible to care about someone without wanting to fuck them. Just, the way the scene was shot, it clearly looked like they were getting ready to screw, and he seemed to be you know...lining up for entry if you will. Which is where my confusion was, since it would be difficult to accomplish that, without the biological act of erection. But, I guess they can just do scissoring style humping.bastardofmelbourne said: