Gamer Entitlement and the PC

[shadowyoasis]

So I was reading a forbes articles linked in another post that at the end had this video by TB. I agree with a good deal of what he says at the end.


Though things like Entitled Gamer is being slung around everywhere now by people who are upset about the products they buy its really a disgrace to the system of capitalism at this point.

We are one of the few markets that when we get uppity, the servicers for that market can put us down and we still go out and buy their things.

As far as the PC market is concerned, I used to be an avid PC gamer and still consider myself for the most part one. But only because I enjoy RTS games and they can't properly be played on a console.

What killed the PC as a gaming console was DLC. Modding is the backbone of PC gaming. But on a console you can charge for what others would've freely given out the community. This I feel is the reason why most publishers stray away from PC. Even now a lot of the publishers take to banning people who mod their games simply to add more content on the pretext of "it helps reduce piracy".

I remember when Microsoft was trying to bring an analogy to Xbox live to the PC and when most PC gamers found out they had to pay for it they simply said, "Why would we get this, we've had the same features for free for years?" so it was canceled for the most part.

Don't get me wrong sometimes I love my gaming console and sometimes I love my PC, but are we really Entitled punks because we want a product that offers us the same choices we had years ago that are now stripped from us?

Don't know just wanted to hear my fellow gamers opinions on things. Also I'm glad we as a community where able to get together and actively seek a change to things if we really need to, but I honestly want to see some boycotting going on. I've seen people in game journalism saying that boycotting and protesting is ridiculous, but isn't that our right as consumers? Shouldn't we be able get up and tell these guys, hey I'm not buying anything published by any studio under you because I'm sick of it.

 

[Scrustle]

I don't think it's entitled to expect to get something that we always did for free. That's totally fine. And the lack of mods on consoles does mean that developers/publishers can get away with making crap and charging for it. And it's not entitled to call bull shit on that, it obviously is.

But there is a hell of a lot of entitlement from gamers right now. Things like expecting a studio to retcon a huge part of the story they created simply because they didn't like is entitled. It's this attitude that games should have to pander to the consumer and give them everything they want even though they know nothing about game design because "the customer is always right".

 

[ResonanceSD]

What shits me is people qho complain about game franchises, yet keep giving developers cash.

 

[The Madman]

If people find a product they paid for or are interested in unsatisfactory they should have the right to voice their concerns, it's the same with any other product and should be treated the same for games. And then if enough people are voicing that same concern, well, maybe something genuinely is wrong with said product rather than the niggling of a minority.

On another note the people who released that product really aren't obligated to listen either, not on matters of taste or opinion. They probably *should* in some cases, but they don't have to.

That's how the world works. All this talk of 'entitlement' seems even more silly to me than people complaining in the first place. People have the right to speak their concerns, and just like anyone else, you're under no obligation to listen if you either disagree or don't like it.

Don't see how this is complicated.

 

[shadowyoasis]

What shits me is people qho complain about game franchises, yet keep giving developers cash.

Yeah, I hate this so much. Given the current controversy over Bioware and ME3. The right response was not "change the ending" it would've been open protests and boycotts of any produce produced from Bioware at all, effectively shutting them down as a studio.

Should they change the ending? Sure, it would've been a logical step to avoid the above, should we have demanded it? No. We should've just shut them out and they would've been forced to change it(game industry version of a recall).

 

[ResonanceSD]

What shits me is people qho complain about game franchises, yet keep giving developers cash.

Yeah, I hate this so much. Given the current controversy over Bioware and ME3. The right response was not "change the ending" it would've been open protests and boycotts of any produce produced from Bioware at all, effectively shutting them down as a studio.

Should they change the ending? Sure, it would've been a logical step to avoid the above, should we have demanded it? No. We should've just shut them out and they would've been forced to change it(game industry version of a recall).

And instead, some tosspots sent them cakes, which proves that gamers have no idea how capitalism works -_-. I haven't bought EA since dragon age 2.

 

[Erana]

So... Does he have a video explaining why he is against used games?
I mean, as a gamer, I have no fucking clue how people shell out $60 several times a year for games. I get them cheap, and when I can. What the Hell is wrong with them making their product, selling the product (or licenses, in the case of games) and people then go on to buy and sell or do whatever the Hell they want with them, just like all the other industries ever?

I mean, I know people are all into expensive, blockbuster games and all, but if you have to pull all this shit to take money from the consumer well beyond the cost of production, distribution and a reasonable payment to remain profitable, don't you think that maybe the industry is overextending itself?
I mean, all the arguments I hear about used games is that it robs the developers of money, leaving them destitute and unable to fund more work, right?

No, that's bullshit. Inbetween the developers and the consumers' payments are often the money people who are concerned solely with the business aspect. And I don't want consumers to be blamed for a studio dying for buying a used copy of their game when it made a long-term profit, but it was shut down by the corporate guys because it "wasn't profitable enough."

Yeah, businesses have a right to go with what's profitable. But its also the consumers' right to demand that they be charged more reasonable amounts and to do whatever the hell they want with the product they bought. How fucking hard is it to give someone what they bought and leave it at that?

I'm not the bad guy here. I love games. And controlling stunts like what is being talked about lately will be Hell on the long-term archival aspect of games, when the only way of using many of them a decade or so down the line is through cracked and pirated versions in some dark recesses of a torrent or someone's discarded hard drive.

 

[Kahunaburger]

What shits me is people qho complain about game franchises, yet keep giving developers cash.

+1

Seriously, people, just don't buy the next Bioware game. There are much, much better RPG devs out there.

 

[shadowyoasis]

Cheaper games is what the market for used games are for. In all honestly game prices have gone up and rather than decrease sales its increased. If you understand what happened to Australians you'd realize that game companies have no real intention of dropping prices.

You'd have to go down to the numbers, but in truth used games hurt small developers. Large developers tend to have enough first day sales that this isn't really much of an issue. Yes its a large overall profit cut but its pennies compared to their opening day profits.

Small game developers however are destroyed by it. Like he said sooner or later everything is going to be digital download for games. DRM however is a monster lurking in the closet and has proven time and time again that it is easily cracked and bypassed so all it ever does is hurt the consumer.

Great thing about sites like GOG is that they buy the rights to the old game and strip it of any DRM. Makes the game much more playable.

There was a rather awesome article by the designers of Sins of a Solar Empire, a game which shipped with no DRM whatsoever. I haven't played it myself but most people who have said it was an amazing game. It also has very few instances of being cracked, and despite not being a large title had good sales.

I for one contemplating cracking my CnC4 just so I didn't have to deal with the always on connection that caused me to lose my progress through the single player twice. Not because my connection went down, but because of a hiccup on their servers.

 

[Kahunaburger]

What shits me is people qho complain about game franchises, yet keep giving developers cash.

+1

Seriously, people, just don't buy the next Bioware game. There are much, much better RPG devs out there.

There are like 2. Maybe three. Obsidian, Inxile, whatever the ex-Troika guys are up to. None of the others come anywhere close in the vibrancy of their writing. Well, at least if you're talking western style RPGs.

It's Bioware - are we actually talking western-style RPGs? Atlus alone has an absurd number of games distributed across a similarly absurd number of platforms that do the party-based RPG thing much better than Bioware.

From the WRPG end, throw in old-school CRPGs and the various recently released Bioware-like ARPGs like Twitcher 2 and Human Revolution and you're good for a while.

 

[shadowyoasis]

Quake 2 would've never lived as long as it did if it wasn't for the mods.

Many mods have actually fully flourished as independent games.

DA:O was a better game for the PC because of the modding community and the fact that it fixed many problems the game itself had that bioware took too long to fix on its own.

Console gaming has slowly ruined the gaming industry, not because console gaming is bad. But because its not as open as PC games. PC gamers demand more customization and they demand it free because thats they way its always been. Publishers don't like this. We are considered "snobby and entitled gamers" because of it.

 

[Racecarlock]

Here's why I do not sympathize with developers who ***** about used games.

1.http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.354961-EA-John-Riccitiello-thinking-about-charging-money-for-bullets-in-games

Even if that rumor is not true, do you really trust that fucking guy to lower prices when we do reach this oh so glorious "All digital future" publishers wet themselves over?

I can't honestly believe he has the balls to call us entitled while thinking of doing that.

2. http://www.freewaregames.net/

http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/

The first website is an extensive library on games that are completely free. Except for the MMOS maybe (micro transactions), but the rest are 100% free.

The second is vega strike. It's in the same vein as Escape Velocity Nova and Frontier Elite and Wing Commander Privateer. It gives you a ship and sends you out into space to get a career in hunting, trading, or militia or something. Hell, you can just wander the universe if you want to. There's dynamic news reporting, a conversation system for you to communicate with AI ships that changes lines depending on your faction standing, and bartenders that you can talk to about rumors. Sometimes, there are bounty hunters and militia at the bar that you can talk to for missions. It's dynamic, it's realistic, it's immersive, and it's cool.

That game is 100% free. You can put it on as many computers as you like, and if you want to pay the guys who made this you can donate some money, even though you don't even have to do that.

And that is why I do not sympathize for one goddamn second with these publishers and developers that keep whining about how used sales are taking all of their profits. Because there are developers generous enough to work tirelessly on fucking brilliant games and only ask for small donations to keep the website server running so more people can download the game.

If they can fucking find a way to get their game out there without even asking for a monetary return and still manage to keep their game played and website up, so can you. Hell, since you actually have a price on your game, you could probably find even better servers to host your game. Hell, publish it on steam for $10 or $20 or something. But don't go whining to me about how I'm stealing your profits just because I buy used. Everything has a second hand market. Either get used to how commerce works here, or fuck off.

As for you publishers, well, same thing, but add this. You guys have some serious fucking balls. To tell me that I'm entitled while whining that you're not getting profits from used games. Not only that, but you call me entitled while you pluck important story characters out of games, games that people have bought new and payed full fucking price for, then you sell those characters back so people can get the full game for $10 or more so they end up wasting time and spending $80-$100 to get the full game they paid full price for in the first place. Do you really expect me to fall for that bullshit when there are guys like the vega strike developers who give me these great full games with nothing cut out and free of charge? If so, than you must really think I have the brains of a potato. So fuck you.

 

[Corven]

So... Does he have a video explaining why he is against used games?
I mean, as a gamer, I have no fucking clue how people shell out $60 several times a year for games. I get them cheap, and when I can. What the Hell is wrong with them making their product, selling the product (or licenses, in the case of games) and people then go on to buy and sell or do whatever the Hell they want with them, just like all the other industries ever?

I mean, I know people are all into expensive, blockbuster games and all, but if you have to pull all this shit to take money from the consumer well beyond the cost of production, distribution and a reasonable payment to remain profitable, don't you think that maybe the industry is overextending itself?
I mean, all the arguments I hear about used games is that it robs the developers of money, leaving them destitute and unable to fund more work, right?

No, that's bullshit. Inbetween the developers and the consumers' payments are often the money people who are concerned solely with the business aspect. And I don't want consumers to be blamed for a studio dying for buying a used copy of their game when it made a long-term profit, but it was shut down by the corporate guys because it "wasn't profitable enough."

Yeah, businesses have a right to go with what's profitable. But its also the consumers' right to demand that they be charged more reasonable amounts and to do whatever the hell they want with the product they bought. How fucking hard is it to give someone what they bought and leave it at that?

I'm not the bad guy here. I love games. And controlling stunts like what is being talked about lately will be Hell on the long-term archival aspect of games, when the only way of using many of them a decade or so down the line is through cracked and pirated versions in some dark recesses of a torrent or someone's discarded hard drive.

He doesn't have a problem with used markets, he understand why people might use them, but as a primarily pc gamer he understands the world can be better without them. Mainly since this has been the pc platform norm for over 8 years now and we are seeing more profit in the pc scene than ever before.

And whilst "i should be able to sell it" is valid, its also short sighted and doesn't give credit where credits due, overall the more money that goes to pubs/devs the better. Means they can afford to make riskier or niche products without fear of getting closed.

And thats the big issue, even mildly succesful studios are getting closed due to this, and just because you say louder "but they already sold the original one and got that profit" doesn't take into account how many times that single copy can go through the used market. Which is money the devs deserve more than just some random store.

Plus when you think about it the pc market is filled to the brim with discounted games and daily deals, that is our used market now, console gamers go out and buy used when they're strapped for cash and pc gamers will wait patiently for that inevitable steam sale or amazon discount, we've been trained this way due to the fact that the games industry won't even harbor the thought of a tiered pricing structure for games, every game has to be set at $60 no matter what.

For example the recent release of Rayman: origins, critically acclaimed and beloved by most people who bought it, but sold poorly because people saw it and went "I'm not paying 60 bucks for that" just because it looks like a flash puzzle platformer people have this ingrained idea of what puzzle platformers are supposed to sold for and the game suffered because of it.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

For example the recent release of Rayman: origins, critically acclaimed and beloved by most people who bought it, but sold poorly because people saw it and went "I'm not paying 60 bucks for that" just because it looks like a flash puzzle platformer people have this ingrained idea of what puzzle platformers are supposed to sold for and the game suffered because of it.

And of course, gamers were blamed for the failure, instead of the business practices that drove people off.

 

[Antari]

I don't worry about the naysayers. I just know they don't know yet. As I spend time in the community over the years everyone eventually gets slammed in the face with the rampant exploitation in gaming. Its only a matter of time. They can call me whatever they like. I know EA will screw them over WAY worse than I ever could. So its all good.

 

[Waffle_Man]

What killed the PC as a gaming console was DLC. Modding is the backbone of PC gaming. But on a console you can charge for what others would've freely given out the community. This I feel is the reason why most publishers stray away from PC. Even now a lot of the publishers take to banning people who mod their games simply to add more content on the pretext of "it helps reduce piracy".

What killed the PC (if you can call the PC dead) is that developers found it far more profitable to sell their money sinks to a mass audience of console gamers. Sure, you can do a ton more stuff on a PC, but most of the big sellers we see (and have always seen) aren't really complex enough to benefit in some fundamental way without excluding not only consoles, but anyone who doesn't a have super high end machine.

I would say that you're fairly close when you say that modding is the backbone of the PC, but I'd say it's much more accurate to call "openness" the back bone of the PC. The indie scene is actually booming at the moment because it plays to this primary strength. As for AAA titles, as more and more money is poured into games, an increasing percentage is going to be put into polish, which is almost always diametrically opposed to such openness.

Don't get me wrong sometimes I love my gaming console and sometimes I love my PC, but are we really Entitled punks because we want a product that offers us the same choices we had years ago that are now stripped from us?

It doesn't make you entitled. What makes someone entitled is buying it and then expecting it to be changed.

Don't know just wanted to hear my fellow gamers opinions on things. Also I'm glad we as a community where able to get together and actively seek a change to things if we really need to, but I honestly want to see some boycotting going on. I've seen people in game journalism saying that boycotting and protesting is ridiculous, but isn't that our right as consumers? Shouldn't we be able get up and tell these guys, hey I'm not buying anything published by any studio under you because I'm sick of it.

The problem isn't that boycotting doesn't work. It's that gamers don't know how to boycott. A boycott is a complete disassociation with a company, not a refusal to buy a single product. It also has to be a product aimed specifically at the people boycotting it. Do you think any butcher is going to care if a vegan boycott's their shop?

Console gaming has slowly ruined the gaming industry, not because console gaming is bad. But because its not as open as PC games. PC gamers demand more customization and they demand it free because thats they way its always been. Publishers don't like this. We are considered "snobby and entitled gamers" because of it.

Entitlement has more to do with the response rather than reason for it. No, it wouldn't be entitled to not buy a game because it doesn't offer mod support. It would be entitled to simply sit paralyzed (or worse, actually buy it) and demand that the company change what they're offering rather that simply walking away and finding someone who is offering what you want. I don't know which any given gamer is doing, but these are the basic criteria by which I would decide whether it's an example of entitlement or not.