#GamerGate Needs Damage Control Badly (Small OP Update)

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Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Zeconte said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
Man, evidence is easy to come by when you work backwards from a predefined conclusion.
Which pretty aptly describes every single piece of evidence I've been presented with from their side. Hence why I feel so confident dismissing this all as nothing worth getting so upset over, let alone trying to get other people fired over.
I'm inclined to agree. It wouldn't be so baffling if so much of it wasn't made up by people who are ostensibly mad at Anita/Zoe/whoever for lying and misrepresenting things. Not only do two wrongs evidently make a right, but three, four, or five wrongs do too.

It's quite possible Sakreesian or Quinn did something wrong. With all the bullshit being used against them, though, I guess we'll never know.
 

Louzerman102

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Mar 12, 2011
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Jux said:
Do you not consider sending nude photos, doxxing and making threatening phone calls harassment? I'm sorry, but Quinn's sex life is not in the realm of public interest, the very fact that the conversation proliferated as much as it did is in itself harassment.
The nude photos thing has bugged me throughout this whole argument because most people seem to use it in a sentence like "the jealous ex put her nudes up on the internet" when the situation is that Zoe Quinn did a pornographic shoot with stage lighting, a professional photographer and she was paid money afterwards. The industry term is pornographic model or Erotic model. It's like saying "oh they shared Jenny McCarthy nudes."

Anyway It's probably just me putting the wrong tone and intent into other people's words. Also I was not aware that anyone had Zoe Quinn's phone number because the one she linked connected to a (pay?) phone in Hawaii.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Machine Man 1992 said:
Just like Anita!

*BA DUM TISH*

Thank you, I'll be here all week!
Yeah, except for the evidence part. But, as I said before, I guess two wrongs do make a right.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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valium said:
Telling people on twitter that you have received real life threats is evidence enough that the person in question did not contact the authorities.
No, it's not. People disregard police advice all the time. It's absurd to claim otherwise.
 

acosn

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Sep 11, 2008
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Fappy said:
I educated myself today on what exactly has been going down and ended up with more questions than answers. Don't get me wrong, I understand the facts of the situation. I understand who said and did what (many of whom are ancillary at best and blatantly irrelevant at worst), and I understand what the point of #GamerGate is. I get it, people want a more accountable gaming press as well as a more ethical and fair Indy development scene.

But what the fuck is all this unrelated bullshit doing here? Why have the lines been drawn between so-called 'SJWs' and 'misogynerd' (or whatever the fuck they're called)? Why is feminism a factor at all? Oh wait, I see, many of the 'misogynerds' are saying that the Indy/Gaming Press Illuminati is using feminism/misogyny as a smokescreen to censor debate. Well if that's the case, then why the fuck are women, some of which have NO connection to any of this (like Anita), getting bombarded with harassment in the form of death and rape threats in relation to this?

You really wonder why people aren't giving #GamerGate the time of day? Really? It doesn't compute? STOP GIVING THEM AMMO! Teach the idiots within your ranks to keep their goddamn mouths shut. Whether you agree with their insane ravings or not, they are associated with your movement and their actions do reflect on your message. The only thing holding me back from supporting this movement is the simple fact that it is so over-saturated with immature, volatile and outright hateful people that I can't bring myself to support it. I cringe every time I see one of your ilk cry "Social Justice Warrior" and that Vivian James (or whatever) mascot is just a sad attempt at the "but I have black friends" defense.

Don't get me wrong, I won't for a second sit here and tell you that I give a damn about any Indy developers and publications getting thrown under the bus if they deserve it. If they are guilty of the crimes they've been accused of, then of course they deserve to be brought down for it; but you know, in an ethical, mature and humane way. Any prying into their personal lives or threats against them are obviously crossing the line, but that should go without saying.

If you want a more accountable gaming press, you're going to have to prove that you deserve it. Some of the more visible names on the #GamerGate side of the fence are clearly concerned about what truly matters, but many more seemingly are not.

Please, tell me if I am off-base, because from where I stand I think I am actually being more fair to #GamerGate than it deserves. As someone who studied journalism, I have always been critical of the gaming press' integrity, so I am naturally inclined to throw in my support; but this case is not so simple. I will not associate myself with a movement that is harassing and threatening people nor one that sees fit to blame everything on feminism of all things.

Define your message and cease this childish 'SJW' finger pointing. Look to the men that inspired the movement's namesake: Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein, and follow their example. They were professionals who acted with discretion, and if your movement wants to be taken seriously so do you.

/flameshieldactivated

SMALL UPDATE: At least something good came out of all this - http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/editorials/12223-The-Escapist-Publisher-Issues-Public-Statement-on-Gamergate

In the end, I think most of us really wanted the same thing.

I have to admit I was skeptical at first because I'd never assumed that anyone reporting on games was actually a journalist. Spun back to the 90's I remember reading nerd mags like Nintendo Power and Inquest Gaming and they never once pretended to be journalists. If people would write in asking how to get their jobs, it usually involved some nuance about being a good writer and holding an English degree. Inquest Gamer even told folks point blank that if they wanted to see more articles about X that they should be talking to the folks who make X because those people are the ones paying Inquest to run the articles.


So the prospect of biased reporting from enthusiast pages such as Kotaku and Polygon and IGN wasn't anything new. Them giving games that just barely pass the bar for what even constitutes a game (I'm still not convinced that Gone Home constitutes one because there's no potential to "lose") near-perfect or perfect scores does raise an eyebrow, but doesn't particularly surprise me. Nintendo Power never gave a bad rating to a Nintendo first party title, but then, Nintendo didn't typically make garbage.


There does, however, seem to be a substantiated link between people who are overtly pushing a "SJW" agenda trying to "infiltrate" video gaming as an industry, and while a lot of circumstantial evidence doesn't imply a crime, it does imply that we should be treating such things with suspicion. Kotaku running articles about how I- because we all need to remember that only white, adult men playing video games are bigots here- should be ashamed of my hobby and how much of a bigot I- allegedly- am didn't really phase me because I could assume most people didn't take this shit seriously but when you see this morph into an overt attack on the house that we built into a multi-billion dollar industry, yeah, it makes me angry.



#GamerGate is not misogynist. It is not racist. The idea that an inadament object can posses these traits is silly at best, and the assertion that Vivian James is a, "But I have minority friends!" argument is mildly insulting when you literally have people going on twitter when someone tries to call them sock puppet accounts and physically giving them a photo of themselves with a timestamps. Are there people within the movement who exhibit these traits? Absolutely. The SJW community also has to grapple with the fact that they have members literally threatening to kill people after doxxing them because the person refused to recant on what they said. Mind you, it was a 10 year old who said it was a comedian's job to find the fine line on social norms, and then cross them.


Quite to the contrary, "but I have minority friends" actually speaks to the diversity present in gaming. Three of the strongest women I know I met through online games. One was hands down the best druid healer in my raid guild, the second was a damn commendable hunter, and the third is- by odds- going to be dead somewhere in the next 6 years or so, assuming her liver behaves. Less if it just gives up. They were, and are, all great people and I wouldn't have met any of them if it wasn't for gaming. Or the gay Australian. Or the two Europeans.


People keep saying gamers are a bunch of bigots but I got no idea what they're talking about. If you can't understand that the actions of a minority do not constitute the position of the majority, then you have to assume the absolute worst about all movements. Because you got feminists who claim all sex between a man and a woman constitutes rape because it "reinforces" the woman's role as subservient to the man. Because you have liberals who literally welcome the prospect of the end of the "white" race, while being white themselves. You have people living in the United States who say with a straight face that communism would do the US some good, while citing figures like Joseph Stalin and Chairman Mao as people to emulate.


Every movement has its fair share of crazy people. They do not constitute the movement as a whole, and in a place like the internet you have to doubly assume that if they're not outright trying to sabotage the movement, they're at least talking out their arse.
 

Machine Man 1992

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
Just like Anita!

*BA DUM TISH*

Thank you, I'll be here all week!
Yeah, except for the evidence part. But, as I said before, I guess two wrongs do make a right.
And three rights make a left!

BOOM! I'm on fire today!

But really now, I mock people who complain about online harassment for the simple reasons that a) that's what trolls do, deal with it and b) there's this thing called a block button. Or just go outside for a while. And with this #gamergate thing (which I support a hundred percent), ere'body's gettin' doxxed, so it's hardly like I can care about who's more reprehensible when both sides are getting equal lumps.

Edit: I should probably elaborate what I mean about the people who complain about online harassment: I am of course referring to professional victimhood. In my experience, people who cry "I'm being harassed!" are usually looking to gain sympathy from everybody else.

And then I get situations like that ten year old/sixteen year old (damn you rumor mill!)who got doxxed, and I don't know whether to lump them in with the whiners or actually make an exception because doxxing could lead to IRL attacks.
 

Fox12

AccursedT- see you space cowboy
Jun 6, 2013
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Fappy said:
Easier said then done. Most people here are pretty reasonable. Are there idiots? Sure, on both sides. I find certain people on the so called "SJW" side quite reasonable. There are also people like Phil Fish running off their mouths. There are also people making ignorant, hateful statements. There are also people on both sides hacking accounts. These people should be condemned and ignored, but to some degree it's impossible to reel in all the trolls.

At the end of the day I crawl through the bullshit and try to focus on the handful of real issues that have resulted from this. Because there ARE some real issues here. If someone derails the debate, then condemn and ignore.
 

Agayek

Ravenous Gormandizer
Oct 23, 2008
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Machine Man 1992 said:
And then I get situations like that ten year old/sixteen year old (damn you rumor mill!)who got doxxed, and I don't know whether to lump them in with the whiners or actually make an exception because doxxing could lead to IRL attacks.
Well considering that the ten year old explicitly told the people defending him to back down and forget about it, I don't think you can classify him as a 'whiner'.

I dunno about the 14 year old trans girl that was doxxed for editing the GamerGate wikipedia page though. I don't think she's commented publicly at all and is just hoping it all goes away.
 

Dr. Crawver

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Nov 20, 2009
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Davroth said:
Now, I haven't really picked a side on the whole Gamergate thing, but this, this reeks once again like double standard. So it's okay to dismiss the Gamergate movement outright for their extremists. Okay, fair enough. Movements need to do damage control, right? How else can anyone take them seriously.

Well, why then are feminists not held to the same standard? Have you guys read what some self-proclaimed feminists write on tumblr or say in Youtube videos? Noone calls for damage control their, or dismisses the cause of feminism. On the contrary, most people just wave that part of the movement away and ridicule people for even bringing it up.

So which one is it? You can't have it both ways.
I know this is a late reply, and sorry of you've had this answered a lot, but I feel I should answer this.

Firstly, I don't really understand why tumblr feminists are constantly brought up. They live in their own echo chamber and have pretty much no influence or sway on anything. I get it, they're annoying, and some of the things they say are complete and total bullshit. I'm a male feminist, and some of the things people have shown me that they've said really does get under my skin. But then I also realize they're all total nobodies (at least all of the ones I've ever seen), and so I have no problem just ignoring it in the long run. But I still do say that yes, they're pretty much insane in the stuff they say, and yes should be denounced. Not abused, not threatened, just denounced and then ignored.

The reason why I can do this is that they're not (at least as far as I can tell) rallying behind any current movement that has steam. They're just flinging shit in their own little corner of the internet. At the same time I don't get angry at the vile elements of 4chan doing their angry shit flinging on 4chan. As long as it stays there, good for them. It's when it leaks out that there's a problem, and here we're seeing a movement with momentum (momentum is important here as well as it should and does increase exposure and scrutiny) and it's leaking on all edges with vile scum out all over the internet. It isn't quite the same for that reason.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not being aggressive. I'm just saying this is at least my take.
 

Davroth

The shadow remains cast!
Apr 27, 2011
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Dr. Crawver said:
Davroth said:
Now, I haven't really picked a side on the whole Gamergate thing, but this, this reeks once again like double standard. So it's okay to dismiss the Gamergate movement outright for their extremists. Okay, fair enough. Movements need to do damage control, right? How else can anyone take them seriously.

Well, why then are feminists not held to the same standard? Have you guys read what some self-proclaimed feminists write on tumblr or say in Youtube videos? Noone calls for damage control their, or dismisses the cause of feminism. On the contrary, most people just wave that part of the movement away and ridicule people for even bringing it up.

So which one is it? You can't have it both ways.
I know this is a late reply, and sorry of you've had this answered a lot, but I feel I should answer this.

Firstly, I don't really understand why tumblr feminists are constantly brought up. They live in their own echo chamber and have pretty much no influence or sway on anything. I get it, they're annoying, and some of the things they say are complete and total bullshit. I'm a male feminist, and some of the things people have shown me that they've said really does get under my skin. But then I also realize they're all total nobodies (at least all of the ones I've ever seen), and so I have no problem just ignoring it in the long run. But I still do say that yes, they're pretty much insane in the stuff they say, and yes should be denounced. Not abused, not threatened, just denounced and then ignored.

The reason why I can do this is that they're not (at least as far as I can tell) rallying behind any current movement that has steam. They're just flinging shit in their own little corner of the internet. At the same time I don't get angry at the vile elements of 4chan doing their angry shit flinging on 4chan. As long as it stays there, good for them. It's when it leaks out that there's a problem, and here we're seeing a movement with momentum (momentum is important here as well as it should and does increase exposure and scrutiny) and it's leaking on all edges with vile scum out all over the internet. It isn't quite the same for that reason.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not being aggressive. I'm just saying this is at least my take.
I can't really agree with your assertion of the situation.

First of all, their brand of radical, sex negative, second wave feminism has been slowly bleeding into the mainstream, at least in the video game sphere, to an alarming degree. Myself, as a sex positive, third wave feminist find that increasingly difficult to stand behind, and I basically decided to sit in the middle and wait it out months. It's not just tumblr and youtube, it's blogs, it's in tedx talks, it's bleeding into main stream media (although they do their best to hide their extremist side there, for good reasons, I'm sure). If GamerGate exposed anything, then it's that everyone, self proclaimed feminists, white knights, and gamers can be equally horrible people on twitter.

In a nutshell, I believe second wave feminism to be an antiquated movement that should by now be ignored in favour of tackling the real problems feminism faces today. But that's not happening. We are slowly pulled backwards, and for no good reason.

And another thing: You make some pretty sweeping assumptions about the people who frequent 4chan there, and it mostly shows me that you never bothered to actually research them. You only see the trolls bubble to the surface, and yes, most of the shit flinging is perpetrated by trolls, not actual feminist haters. You should take the time and actually look into it, and if you did and that's what you took away from it, well, I think you are wrong. But I probably wont persuade you. Just something to think about: When allegations were made that Zoe Quinn might not be on the up and up with her donations from Depression Quest, they raised over 2000 dollars in a few hours. And are still going. Allegations turned out to be exaggerated, but that's really not here nor there. There is nothing wrong with asking if donations reach their intended destination. Considering how scandal clad charities have been in recent years, noone should be surprised about that.

https://www.crowdrise.com/NSHGamers/fundraiser/loping

I'm pretty sure that's more then Depression Quest has raised for the cause of depression and suicide prevention, going by Zoe Quinn's own accounts on twitter, which, not bad for a bunch of degenerates and mysogynists. Again, my problem is that everyone looses their mind about the vile elements of 4chan while noone bats an eye about the vile elements of the other side, and they are out and about especially on twitter in full force these days. And the media coverage of all of this is very one-sided. I find that saddening. Also, not a word about this feminist indigogo project reaching its funding goal with 15 days to go:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-fine-young-capitalists--2#activity

They could use the exposure. Yet all the video game blogs seem surprising silent about them. I wonder why.

So overall, no, I'm sorry, I can't agree with you on either of those points.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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geK0 said:
I appreciate your take.

I think people rallied around this particular instance of collusion/nepotism because the targets were/are so very self-righteous. When a major hypocrit (and as an emotionally abusive user, Zoe the social justice champion is absolutely a hypocrit) appears among a tight-knit group of dedicated preachers who refuse to cede the moral high ground, no matter what, you better believe people are gonna seize on that incongruity and go on the attack.
 

maninahat

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Sleekit said:
go on,

tell us how to stop the random assholes of the internet.

over and above that...which we are already doing.

i genuinely await your reply with fascination.
I can't propose a fool proof way to stop people being assholes on the internet. There are fairly basic steps that can be taken though to try and mitigate their effect.

1) If it is on a forum or an imageboard, forums and imageboards have moderators and rules. 4Chan even has moderators, though they don't take too much interest in what people are saying unless their comments fall afoul of a very specific (limited) criteria. If 4chan really cared about stopping homophobic or xenophobic or sexism or bullying etc, the moderators most certainly could do something about it.

2) Even without the powers that be getting involved, other interlocuters can do more to condemn the assholes. To pick on 4chan again, people will say whatever the hell they want, and it largely goes unchallenged. Many of the "haha jews" comments are often made by people who aren't genuinely anti-semetic, but are desperate for someone to laugh at their comment and pat them on the back, or to make some outraged response that they can smugly chortle to. Don't feed the trolls, but also make it clear to them that they aren't impressing anyone. If I was a supporter of the gamergate discussion, the last thing I would want is some asshole on "my side", bragging about how he taught some woman a lesson by sending her nude picks around. Make that clear to them, otherwise your failure to criticise or distance yourself from these people will get you tarred by the same brush.
 

Davroth

The shadow remains cast!
Apr 27, 2011
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valium said:
I am getting some severely conflicted notions on feminism. Old school feminists are calling the radical feminists 3rd wave, but self-proclaimed 3rd wave are blaming 2nd wave.

Might just be semantics, but I think we can all agree this SJW brand of trying to force their narrow and dangerously skewed morals on everybody is nothing but damaging to everything they get involved with. No wonder they hate actual progressives, that would take away their high ground in which to spew their vile bullying.
Actually, second and third wave feminists can be very easily distinguised from each other. Usually by which definition of patriarchy they subscribe to. One of the reasons I personally don't have a lot common ground with second wave feminists. But the internet is actually full of viable and neutral material where everyone can educate themselves of feminist theory.

I'd argue the SJW crowd isn't a feminist movement at all, though. They seem too busy hurling abuse at people who dare to not 100% agree with their opinions.
 

mega lenin

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Hat tip to Marshal Zukhov on the find.

The lesson to learn:

When you find yourself in a knee jerk frothing mouth rage state, jumping to far fetched conspiracies as obvious conclusions to why you are in a knee jerk frothing mouth rage state, you'll soon find yourself approached by my boy Kane here from the Brotherhood of Nod to join him as a fellow traveler in the Tiberium Wars to come. Goofballs like this and infoporn profiteers like Breitbart aren't here to champion your cause. They are here to try and ensnare you into their personal tin foil hat club (Good ol' Kane) and or to herd you into their fetishistic infoporn sphere to make some sweet sweet cash off of you (Breitbart). Take it as an object lesson that whenever you are in an outraged state where all caution and skepticism is thrown to the wind, the internet is full of useless people trying to monetize your outrage or bring you into constant fellowship with that outrage as a fucking pathetic lifestyle.
 

j4c0b1

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mega lenin said:
At least Kane was very charismatic, and well spoken.

On the original topic can we not say both "sides" are equally as bad, and nothing of value has been learnt by anyone in this clusterfuck.
 

Requia

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Fappy said:
But what the fuck is all this unrelated bullshit doing here? Why have the lines been drawn between so-called 'SJWs' and 'misogynerd' (or whatever the fuck they're called)?
The lines have been drawn this way because they have used classic SJW tactics of claiming harassment and bigotry to deflect legitimate criticism, while at the same time being bigots and harassing people. And by bigots I don't mean reverse racism or misandry, I mean they decry women who have their own opinions as gender traitors, harass a depression support groups, have made calls for men to defend women as men are obligated to do.

Why is feminism a factor at all?
Because the SJWs are perpetuating patriarchy, spreading transhate, and making appeals to sexism (that is, encouraging people to be sexist against women)? I think you missed all the feminist critique of the anti-gamergate crowd that's been spewing out of Tumblr and Twitter. Look up @MissAngerist on twitter, or j-k-degoya on Tumblr.
 

Agayek

Ravenous Gormandizer
Oct 23, 2008
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Requia said:
Because the SJWs are perpetuating patriarchy, spreading transhate, and making appeals to sexism (that is, encouraging people to be sexist against women)? I think you missed all the feminist critique of the anti-gamergate crowd that's been spewing out of Tumblr and Twitter. Look up @MissAngerist on twitter, or j-k-degoya on Tumblr.
It generally works better [https://medium.com/@cainejw/a-narrative-of-gamergate-and-examination-of-claims-of-collusion-with-4chan-5cf6c1a52a60] when you provide [https://twitter.com/MissAngerist] links [http://j-k-degoya.tumblr.com/post/97436700191/everyone-who-wants-to-weigh-in-on-gamergate-needs] yourself instead of telling people to look it up. Just saying.

Edit:
Also, all y'all are gonna want to calm down on the inflammatory rhetoric. You're not gonna win any converts shrieking about how you're right.

Unless you're Leigh Alexander apparently.
 

shrekfan246

Not actually a Japanese pop star
May 26, 2011
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s69-5 said:
Fourth, you don't visit "gaming discussion" and took one cursory look at it and declared your statement to be truth and mine to be dubious at best - even though I've lived in Gaming Discussion for 5 years now... okay then.
Okay, how about the opinion of someone who has been a part of Gaming Discussion and Off-Topic almost daily for three and a half years then?

More than three-quarters of the threads made since 2012 which have involved feminism, sexism, or "social justice" topics in gaming have come from people trying to discredit Anita Sarkeesian or otherwise trying to "shout down" those they consider to be "SJWs". A precious few have been made trying to actually discuss the subject matter and content of things like Sarkeesian's videos, but those are all inevitably derailed by people coming in trying to discredit her on a personal level. Even the topics we get like "should there be more women in gaming?" tend to just be thinly-veiled attacks on "feminist" ideology. It is incredibly rare that we actually get one of those threads from someone who is a feminist, because they've all spent a damn near constant two years getting "shouted down by the opposition".

And in every single one of those threads, hyperbole is used in quite an astounding way to make it seems like this entire website is filled with nothing but indignant "SJWs" who are calling everyone else "misogynists" for daring to speak up against them and trying to "censor" the other side of the discussion; claims which any "cursory look" could easily disprove. (And I won't even get into the criminal abuse and misuse of the term "censorship" that has happened over the past two years.)

There are very few people on this website who have ever expressed open support for the types of "feminism" that the pro-GamerGate people seem so terrified of. Many more of us simply jump into threads to try getting people to refrain from attacking people rather than their arguments, or to ensure that they're actually using factual information and aren't simply taking something as fact because it validates their confirmation bias.

EDIT: This is all from the perspective of being completely separate from the R&P forum, of course. I don't go there, so maybe it's a slightly different story there. But in GD and OT, feminists (the likes that people are saying are coming out from around every corner at least) are in very short supply.