Gamergate, No "Right Side." - We Should Avoid Picking Sides

[JimB]

No, but it's annoying that people have made that point several times throughout this thread.

Sorry. Redlemon asked a question while quoting me, so I answered. In all honesty, I'd do it again.

I'm sorry that there is just one to many GamerGate threads for you. If it's such a huge problem, you could try to avoid them.

I could, or I could try to add my voice to the discussion. Y'know, whichever.

I made this thread manly to see if a middle ground exists.

I don't know if it counts as a middle ground, but here's what some guy I never heard of thinks about it. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.863033.21519247]

What's the use for me to enter the gaming industry if this is how the gaming industry acts?

I guess that depends on your personal standards of how much disagreement with your position you're willing to tolerate from your coworkers.

 

[Pirate Of PC Master race]

After much research, I can safely declare that everyone is wrong.
What I have seen is that this gaming war has become too radical on both sides.

Extremists overgeneralizing movements.
Misinformation and a Lack of Understanding.

The only choice for us as the fence sitters is to not pick a side.

This issue has devolved to the point of slinging mud. Children in the playground shouting insults to one another then crying saying "we're not poopy heads." as they shout "you are poopy heads."

Can we all just agree, Gamergate will not solve anything? Can we all agree StopGamergate will not solve anything.

The truth has always been that there is room for both.
There is room for gone home and call of duty.
There is room for Bayonetta getting a 7.5 on Polygon and 10 out of 10s from other respectable sites.

There is room for us all. We should all be gaming. We don't need a label. And if we have a label we give ourselves then so what.

The truth is, there is no "True Gamers." There is no "fake gamers". Gaming has reached the mainstream in ways we could only dream of in the 90s.

How can we save gaming? If we embrace our fellow men and women with controller in hand passing off to each other in glorious play.

For peep-sakes, can we be adults? Let's have the games the way we want it.
The truth is, your games aren't going anywhere.
You experiences will not end.
New Experiences will be created and will be accepted.

That's the truth.

If gamergate wants to truly make a difference then create a consumer group. Create a website. Rally the hundreds, thousands who pledge the hashtag. The talents they have. Rally together and create something new.

Why do we always have to keep fighting when most games come with two, four, sixteen players?
Can't we just play?

You are an optimist for believing in what you say.

May I offer my theory? It is your choice to take it to the heart or not though.
I will try to keep it short.

In my opinion, most people love to fling *cough* dirt at each other.
The GG, or anti-GG? They mean nothing to them. It is just a reason, no- an excuse to fight against each other and roll in the mud.

Oh yeah, Good causes, peace for humanity, advancement of ages or whatever. They will still fight over it with insignificant reasons or just target specific person because why not. But what good is my point when there are no evidences? Let's go over good ol' history books.

Oh, Martin Luther King, Jr(may his name be remembered. He was an optimist too) got assassinated. Let us honour his death.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_assassination_riots
..By looting the stores that has nothing to do with it. It's probably what King. Jr wanted.

Oh my. Black man got beaten up unjustfully. Let's show government how angry we are!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots
..By burning cars and looting stores.

Poors are bring crushed by capitalism and the country's leaders are doing nothing!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_G-20_Toronto_summit_protests
MAIM KILL BURN! MAIM KILL BURN!

But it is just the real life example. Such barbarism cannot possibly exist on the internet, right?
Just ask some guys who have 2k or more posts, I am sure that they've been around for a while to see the pattern going on. I only remember events far and in-between like feminist movement and gun control due to my low interest on those subject(and inevitable s***storm). For your best interest, I suggest you to understand the cause of this bizarre social phenomenon. Otherwise, you will get disappointed over, and over, and over again.


p.s- I remember a mime talking about something about this subject.

"You see, their morals, their code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you. When the chips are down, these... these civilized people, they'll eat each other."

 

[grassgremlin]

You are an optimist for believing in what you say.

May I offer my theory? It is your choice to take it to the heart or not though.
I will try to keep it short.

In my opinion, most people love to fling *cough* dirt at each other.
The GG, or anti-GG? They mean nothing to them. It is just a reason, no- an excuse to fight against each other and roll in the mud.

Oh yeah, Good causes, peace for humanity, advancement of ages or whatever. They will still fight over it with insignificant reasons or just target specific person because why not. But what good is my point when there are no evidences? Let's go over good ol' history books.

Oh, Martin Luther King, Jr(may his name be remembered. He was an optimist too) got assassinated. Let us honour his death.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_assassination_riots
..By looting the stores that has nothing to do with it. It's probably what King. Jr wanted.

Oh my. Black man got beaten up unjustfully. Let's show government how angry we are!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots
..By burning cars and looting stores.

Poors are bring crushed by capitalism and the country's leaders are doing nothing!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_G-20_Toronto_summit_protests
MAIM KILL BURN! MAIM KILL BURN!

But it is just the real life example. Such barbarism cannot possibly exist on the internet, right?
Just ask some guys who have 2k or more posts, I am sure that they've been around for a while to see the pattern going on. I only remember events far and in-between like feminist movement and gun control due to my low interest on those subject(and inevitable s***storm). For your best interest, I suggest you to understand the cause of this bazaar social phenomenon. Otherwise, you will get disappointed over, and over, and over again.


p.s- I remember a mime talking about something about this subject.

"You see, their morals, their code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you. When the chips are down, these... these civilized people, they'll eat each other."

Wow.
Honestly, I just don't know what I can do.

 

[Something Amyss]

"Gamergate is a hate movement"
"Gamergate is a bunch of men angry at women"
"Gamergate is a movement to harass people"

[citation needed]

And yet the media labels the entirety of GamerGate as misogynists due to the actions of only a few. Sometimes due to the actions of people who aren't even affiliated with GamerGate. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Well, 1, that's not hypocrisy. Hypocricy is saying one thing and doing another, like, say, insisting on journalistic ethics and then rallying behind Milo Yiannopoulos or not investigating claims before running with them. And when you do that last one, it certainly looks like Gamergate is a movement to harass people. 2, you're not providing any sources, so....

In fact, this is the third or fourth time I've been around on this with you.

It's funny you say that, I just read this particular article. http://pixietalksgamergate.wordpress.com/gamergates-misconceptions-thus-far/

You know, it's people like PixieJenni that makes me realize not everyone involved with Gamergate is an overly emotional child.

I think the best part is that I can't particularly tell where the author stands just by looking at that. I mean, if I did a count of the responses, it might favour one "side" or the other (really, it seems it does, but I haven't even heard several of these claims before, so I don't know who they'd be favouring), but it doesn't immediately read like an apologetic for any one perspective.

Granted, I also haven't fact checked every line, but it at least comes off as reasonable.

 

[Callate]

"Then from out of the blue,
And without any guide,
You know what your decision is,
Which is not to decide..." -Into the Woods

On one hand, I'm pretty much there with you. The more extreme members of both sides are an embarrassment. There's hardly a virtue to extol that they can't mangle with the very next sentence.

If I had a concern, though, it would be this: despite what some might like to believe, harassment and death threats existed before GamerGate, and will undoubtedly persist thereafter. But having had it confirmed that [there really is an organized conspiracy refusing to listen and working to censor their point of view/ there really are misogynistic basement-dwellers who are ready to go to extremes to keep women oppressed], taking matters out of discussion where there are the more moderate people to say, "Hey, cool it guys! Not okay!" is just going to leave the worst people angrier and more fed up than ever.

Score one for pessimism about the human condition, one way or another...

 

[Olas]

I don't really see how you can be in the "middle" of this issue. You either object to nepotism and corruption in journalism or you don't.

Basically, neutrality in the debate isn't a third side, it's just staying out of the debate. If you want to stay out of the debate then stay out of the debate.

 

[Something Amyss]

What's the use for me to enter the gaming industry if this is how the gaming industry acts?

Do you mean the fans? Because from what I've seen, most of the industry itself has been decent about the whole thing.

The fandom's response has been disturbing, and if that's your worry I understand.

 

[Erttheking]

What's the use for me to enter the gaming industry if this is how the gaming industry acts?

Do you mean the fans? Because from what I've seen, most of the industry itself has been decent about the whole thing.

The fandom's response has been disturbing, and if that's your worry I understand.

Funny story. Awhile ago I actually wanted a job in the game industry. Boy did those dreams get squashed out of me when I saw what I'd have to put up with from the community

 

[Erttheking]

What's the use for me to enter the gaming industry if this is how the gaming industry acts?

Do you mean the fans? Because from what I've seen, most of the industry itself has been decent about the whole thing.

The fandom's response has been disturbing, and if that's your worry I understand.

Funny story. Awhile ago I actually wanted a job in the game industry. Boy did those dreams get squashed out of me when I saw what I'd have to put up with from the community

Unless the job that you wanted involved PR or Marketing, you wouldn't be in a position to interact with the community at all, unless you voluntarily did so. And beyond that, you'd only be a "public figure" if you wanted to.

Of course, that wouldn't stop corrupt journalists from doxxing you. It's not the community you have to fear.

I wanted to be a reviewer. So no thank you. Don't need people telling me I'm biased every other review .

 

[Erttheking]

I wanted to be a reviewer. So no thank you. Don't need people telling me I'm biased every other review .

Oh, I wouldn't call that "The game industry".

Yeah, if you can't handle people verbally vomiting all over your work, you should probably never make any consumer-facing product ever, because this happens in every industry.

Yeah...thanks for the advice and all, but I already regularly post things online. I'm good. I just want nothing to do with people who will send me death threats because I don't like their favorite thing, or actually liked their not favorite thing. Which oddly enough seems unique to gaming.

 

[Something Amyss]

Read the main gg thread here. Do you see any actual misogynists in there?

You know, I have a friend who has possibly quite the Escapist over the harassment that has followed them for the gall of posting in that thread. They have definitely killed their Twitter account.

If being stalked online by people screaming at you and calling you a slut for nothing more than trying to have a conversation doesn't count as misogyny, then no. I don't.

 

[Erttheking]

Yeah...thanks for the advice and all, but I already regularly post things online. I'm good. I just want nothing to do with people who will send me death threats because I don't like their favorite thing, or actually liked their not favorite thing. Which oddly enough seems unique to gaming.

I'm sorry it seems that way to you, but let me assure you, you are wrong. Death threats because of subjective preferences exist everywhere.

Trust me. I've seen enough to make an informed decision. There's too much bullshit in gaming for me to even think about getting a job with anything that has anything to do with it.

 

[Popido]

I wanted to be a reviewer. So no thank you. Don't need people telling me I'm biased every other review .

Oh, I wouldn't call that "The game industry".

Yeah, if you can't handle people verbally vomiting all over your work, you should probably never make any consumer-facing product ever, because this happens in every industry.

Yeah...thanks for the advice and all, but I already regularly post things online. I'm good. I just want nothing to do with people who will send me death threats because I don't like their favorite thing, or actually liked their not favorite thing. Which oddly enough seems unique to gaming.

Gaming culture has become a vile toxicated community driven by hate. Games have for years promoted violence, misogyni and satanism towards the masses. Jack Thompson and other free-thinkers were right for calling the spewing cauldron of hate as it is.

Journalist have not lost contact with their audience, as there never was any contact to be had with. Just pure uncontrollable hate. Death threats, consolewars, fear and loathing. This is the culture of hate.

You do not want to work in this industry or promote it to the masses.

 

[Something Amyss]

Yeah...thanks for the advice and all, but I already regularly post things online. I'm good. I just want nothing to do with people who will send me death threats because I don't like their favorite thing, or actually liked their not favorite thing. Which oddly enough seems unique to gaming.

You know, I was watching a video last night, and the guy was asked how he felt about Anita Sarkeesian. Despite not being a gamer or into games, he's been asked this like four or five times, and he's always answered that he didn't have a problem with her or actually supported her. So I don't know what people are expecting.

Anyway, said YouTuber brought up the part where from the perspective of any other entertainment media (actually, I think he just said books and film, which is probably more accurate, given comics), this sort of criticism would be completely non-controversial. He even points out that you're still free to disagree with her, but that the bile she gets for simply making a critique is astonishing.

And I mean, I've thought this before, but it sort of codified it in my head: isn't it astounding how we have a movement that wants "better games journalism," but that balks at any criticism (including "he liked (game I dislike)" or "he didn't like (game I like)") and seems to want to be treated like special snowflakes?

And this isn't even about sexism, it's about puerile behaviour. I'm not sure why anyone would give an honest, ethical assessment of a game in this environment. I'm not even particularly sure why people would want to get in, knowing a balance tweak could get you threatened.

 

[Erttheking]

Trust me. I've seen enough to make an informed decision. There's too much bullshit in gaming for me to even think about getting a job with anything that has anything to do with it.

How many other consumer-facing (preferably internet-facing) industries have you been in, that allows you to make this "informed decision"? What was the price model like? In other words, was your content free for everyone on the internet, or was your content behind a pay wall of some sort? Was your content objective, or something subjective like a review or an opinion?

I've seen the way that people react to journalists. The sheer amount of bile that gets thrown their way. No. Fucking. Thank you.