GamerGate's Image Problem

[KokujinTensai]

Hey Runic, although your efforts to engage with the opposition are admirable it appears evident that both sides are entrenched. I learned alot from this topic. Hopefully we can take some valid criticisms here and help fix the negative views some people who are unfamiliar with the situation may have. The key is to leave all emotion out of debate. Rational thought will trump emotion always.

That's not whats going on, even a little. Mega thread is ALL emotions. Its fast becoming a problem because few, if any, see it.

For all that I disagree with runic, he/she is one of the few willing to brave the area outside the echo chamber of mega thread.

You're totally right and there are voices attempting to quell the emotion, but as you can see this topic has gotten people very riled up and it's not necessarily an easy task. I know its easy to just label us all petulant manchildren but I urge both sides to avoid making such broad generalizations. I also dislike echo chambers which is why I'm here trying to see how those who oppose us view us.

 

[aliengmr]

runic

I'll try to keep this short, life stuff.

I don't think there is any question at all that the hostility toward the women involved were because they were women. Not 100% of it, but I should point out that the men involved received FAR less attention, Greyson being the chief example of that. Seriously, some of the stuff was down right horrible. Not placing it at your feet, just telling you what I witnessed. Hence my extreme reluctance to sign up.

I've seen it before this as well, the hostility towards women making criticisms is just much higher. We haven't wanted to admit it because, I believe, we just don't know what to do about it and think we are complicate in it when we aren't. I agree its a frustrating place to be in as a man. I also think language used has an effect. Anita's videos have that problem, I think.

I do also wonder what role culture plays in this debate.

The latter part is really just my opinions so take them with a grain of salt.

Gotta go.

 

[runic knight]

runic

I'll try to keep this short, life stuff.

I don't think there is any question at all that the hostility toward the women involved were because they were women. Not 100% of it, but I should point out that the men involved received FAR less attention, Greyson being the chief example of that. Seriously, some of the stuff was down right horrible. Not placing it at your feet, just telling you what I witnessed. Hence my extreme reluctance to sign up.

I've seen it before this as well, the hostility towards women making criticisms is just much higher. We haven't wanted to admit it because, I believe, we just don't know what to do about it and think we are complicate in it when we aren't. I agree its a frustrating place to be in as a man. I also think language used has an effect. Anita's videos have that problem, I think.

I do also wonder what role culture plays in this debate.

The latter part is really just my opinions so take them with a grain of salt.

Gotta go.

I will agree, what some people have said or done on both sides is utterly despicable. Hell, right now the megathread is posting a lot of cases of pro-GG people being hacked and being called on home phones and I am sure people on the other side of the divide have been dealing with similar attacks. That shit isn't right on either side.

I have to disagree still that it was misogynistic though. The sort of hate and harassment youtubers like thunderf00t or The Amazing Atheist get is easily equivalent to what anita or Zoe got if not more so before this blew up. Afterwards, considering how Zoe was the center of a lot of different controversies such as sabotaging TFYC, the wizardchan debacle and so forth, as well as the constant attempts to paint questions about her as misogynistic has lead to an easily predictable backlash against her. There is are reasons why zoe was the spark of this, as she had connections to many different issues, while the individual people she was connected with at the start were just that, the connections to those elements. Furthermore, Zoe has done a lot more to maintain in the spot light compared to the others who have generally kept their heads down in comparison. Honestly, look at how people are now going after Kuchera now that is was revealed what an asshole he is. I don't think that is how misogyny as motivation would work.

you claim that women get more hostility but I have to ask where that is coming from. Is that based on the hostility seen, or the reporting of the hostility?

In a cultural discussion, I could see how societal pressures would shape how such things are reported and thus presenting the case that it happens more to one gender then the other, but something here just doesn't make sense, not from a cultural nor from a logical standpoint, that women would get more harassment solely for being women. Just, why would that be the case?

 

[Lunar Archivist]

I don't think there is any question at all that the hostility toward the women involved were because they were women. Not 100% of it, but I should point out that the men involved received FAR less attention, Greyson being the chief example of that. Seriously, some of the stuff was down right horrible. Not placing it at your feet, just telling you what I witnessed. Hence my extreme reluctance to sign up.

The reason that the women appear to be bearing the brunt of the attack is that ZQ and AS keep getting shoved back into the spotlight for one reason for another. Leigh Alexander keeps coming up because not only was her Gamasutra article particularly vile, but because she seemed to almost revel in being as mean as possible on Twitter. Grayson's not getting much flak because he wisely decided to lay low, but Ben Kuchera's definitely been getting a lot of crap.

You're also neglecting the fact that a lot of the men on the pro-GamerGate side, such as Adam Baldwin, Milo, Internet Aristocrat and Boogie have also been relentlessly attacked.

I've seen it before this as well, the hostility towards women making criticisms is just much higher. We haven't wanted to admit it because, I believe, we just don't know what to do about it and think we are complicate in it when we aren't. I agree its a frustrating place to be in as a man. I also think language used has an effect. Anita's videos have that problem, I think.

I do also wonder what role culture plays in this debate.

If - and that's a big if - there's any increased hostility towards women, then it's due largely to the anti-GamerGate crowds overplaying of the sexism/misogyny card. They can't seem to differentiate between people criticizing a women just for being a woman (real misogyny) and criticizing a person who just happens to be a woman (not misogyny). It's extremely difficult and frustrating to argue with someone can not only magically turn an entire crowd against you just by yelling "Sexist!" or "Misogynist!" but is also never called out on their crap for doing so.

 

[Zontar]

Which would mean nothing if there weren't a substantial population of GGers who simply cannot help themselves anytime a female who disagrees in any way with them or doesn't conform to their narrative appears "in the spotlight" (which apparently means in any public venue at all).

I wonder if there's a word for that. I think it starts with an "m."

Replace "GGers" and put in "Anti-GGers" in that sentance and you have the reason why #NotYourShield became a thing. I don't want to get into a long drawn out discussion with you (based on your previous posts nothing will come out if for either of us), but your comment reacks of hypocracy and a lacking of self-awareness bordering on the absurd.

I can also think of a word for all this, which also starts with an "m". Misandric. It would still be wrong as next to nothing has been bread from the genuine hatred of men by women, but hey, who needs things like 'definitions' for words? It's not like words have meaning after all.

 

[runic knight]

I don't think there is any question at all that the hostility toward the women involved were because they were women. Not 100% of it, but I should point out that the men involved received FAR less attention, Greyson being the chief example of that. Seriously, some of the stuff was down right horrible. Not placing it at your feet, just telling you what I witnessed. Hence my extreme reluctance to sign up.

The reason that the women appear to be bearing the brunt of the attack is that ZQ and AS keep getting shoved back into the spotlight for one reason for another.

Which would mean nothing if there weren't a substantial population of GGers who simply cannot help themselves anytime a female who disagrees in any way with them or doesn't conform to their narrative appears "in the spotlight" (which apparently means in any public venue at all).

I wonder if there's a word for that. I think it starts with an "m."

Yes, I believe it was "misrepresentation"? Oh, I think you may have meant something else there, was it "misconstrue"? Hmm, might have to keep guessing at that, time to break out the dictionary I guess.

You know, you are saying here that whenever a female representative doesn't agree is when people start to call them out, readily admitting that it is "when they disagree" and not because of the gender of the person involved, and yet still want to try to hint at what you were hinting at? Seems to actually be arguing that it isn't a hatred of women that motivates people but rather the personal opinions and stances they disagree with, as though they would get the same reaction if they weren't women. Kinda like one Kuchera perhaps?

So, would you readily admit then that why people disagree and criticize these women is not because they are women and is instead because what they say itself is found disagreeable?

And in relation to the larger thread topic itself, would helping spread this information around, that the disagreement has nothing to do with the gender of the people involved and everything to do with their actual stances and opinions as individuals and thus misogyny is not the motivation behind gamergate itself? You know, I think you are on to something there, thank you for that one, it should help a lot in trying to help people learn about this whole movement.

 

[Zontar]

A failed thing of super-obvious sockpuppeting meant to protect certain people from having to face up to the hateful and transparently deceptive genesis of their so-called "movement," yes. And also a tactic you still can't seem to process has been nakedly exposed for some time now. Sadly hilarious that you're the one bringing it up.

I can't tell at this point if you're genuine, or a parody of the more extremist parts of the anti-GGers. Exposed by who? The whole thing started with minorities and women posting images of themselves holding papers with NotYourShield written on them. Are you really trying to say that it was all, or even more then just partially, faked?

And people say GGers have a conspiracy theorist problem.

 

[RexMundane]

As an aside, and in a doomed attempt to try and bring this back to the original topic, I'm becoming of the opinion that Leigh Alexander is about to be dubbed Literally Who #3, in that it lately feels like they can't shut up about her, but might yet realize that, much like Zoe and Anita, it's problematic to their public image to be seen fixating on her, but since they can't stop themselves, they'll start using the nickname in the hopes of fooling anyone at all. Maybe I'm talking out my ass, maybe my psychic radar is acting up again, just a hunch is all.

a) In that mega thread of circle jerking, she's already been discussed as LW#3, actually.

b) thanks for clearing up what them lW's mean, I got who they were meant to be, but not what they actually meant.

Yeah, all the needless playing around with codewords is a little grating. I only just a minute ago got the "muh soggy knee" thing. Like, dammit, if you want people to take you seriously, maybe quit with the cutesy childishness, you know?

Also, just made the mistake of stepping into the main thread, now they're attacking Boogie of all damn people as a shill, ZQ for being a Marxist, and more and more "it's all connected" flowcharts. This is... this is getting a bit surreal for me, it's like how you'd write a parody of a paranoid conspiracy theory, and it's happening right in front of us. Breathtaking in its way.

 

[runic knight]

A failed thing of super-obvious sockpuppeting meant to protect certain people from having to face up to the hateful and transparently deceptive genesis of their so-called "movement," yes. And also a tactic you still can't seem to process has been nakedly exposed for some time now. Sadly hilarious that you're the one bringing it up.

I can't tell at this point if you're genuine, or a parody of the more extremist parts of the anti-GGers. Exposed by who? The whole thing started with minorities and women posting images of themselves holding papers with NotYourShield written on them. Are you really trying to say that it was all, or even more then just partially, faked?

And people say GGers have a conspiracy theorist problem.

He is talking about the Quinn "4chan raid" thing. You remember, that attempt to misrepresent the chat logs that suddenly got dropped after the full logs were voluntarily released and everyone could look through them and see the misrepresentation for what they were? That thing that was abandoned by even the journalists themselves because of how easy it was to disprove weeks ago? Yeah, he was trying to push that as evidence that notyourshield was fake.

 

[Zontar]

A failed thing of super-obvious sockpuppeting meant to protect certain people from having to face up to the hateful and transparently deceptive genesis of their so-called "movement," yes. And also a tactic you still can't seem to process has been nakedly exposed for some time now. Sadly hilarious that you're the one bringing it up.

I can't tell at this point if you're genuine, or a parody of the more extremist parts of the anti-GGers. Exposed by who? The whole thing started with minorities and women posting images of themselves holding papers with NotYourShield written on them. Are you really trying to say that it was all, or even more then just partially, faked?

And people say GGers have a conspiracy theorist problem.

He is talking about the Quinn "4chan raid" thing. You remember, that attempt to misrepresent the chat logs that suddenly got dropped after the full logs were voluntarily released and everyone could look through them and see the misrepresentation for what they were? That thing that was abandoned by even the journalists themselves because of how easy it was to disprove weeks ago? Yeah, he was trying to push that as evidence that notyourshield was fake.

Isn't it technically racist and sexist? I mean, he's basically arguing that women and minorities are incapable of being part of GamerGate.

 

[runic knight]

Also, just made the mistake of stepping into the main thread, now they're attacking Boogie of all damn people as a shill, ZQ for being a Marxist, and more and more "it's all connected" flowcharts. This is... this is getting a bit surreal for me, it's like how you'd write a parody of a paranoid conspiracy theory, and it's happening right in front of us. Breathtaking in its way.

um... what? I see a lot of people getting outraged that someone who was pro-gamergate was actually fired for it, as well as numerious people being doxxed and called at home and being threatened.
You sure you actually went to the right thread?

but hey, have a good laugh there.

 

[runic knight]

A failed thing of super-obvious sockpuppeting meant to protect certain people from having to face up to the hateful and transparently deceptive genesis of their so-called "movement," yes. And also a tactic you still can't seem to process has been nakedly exposed for some time now. Sadly hilarious that you're the one bringing it up.

I can't tell at this point if you're genuine, or a parody of the more extremist parts of the anti-GGers. Exposed by who? The whole thing started with minorities and women posting images of themselves holding papers with NotYourShield written on them. Are you really trying to say that it was all, or even more then just partially, faked?

And people say GGers have a conspiracy theorist problem.

He is talking about the Quinn "4chan raid" thing. You remember, that attempt to misrepresent the chat logs that suddenly got dropped after the full logs were voluntarily released and everyone could look through them and see the misrepresentation for what they were? That thing that was abandoned by even the journalists themselves because of how easy it was to disprove weeks ago? Yeah, he was trying to push that as evidence that notyourshield was fake.

Isn't it technically racist and sexist? I mean, he's basically arguing that women and minorities are incapable of being part of GamerGate.

I don't even know anymore. at this point he was admitting that people were going after Zoe for what she was saying but still trying to pretend that it was still misogynistic despite the rules of language itself running contrary to that claim. I wouldn't be surprised if the racism and sexism that comes from denying the individuality of people to act and make their own choices based on their race and gender is being re-defined as something else.

 

[runic knight]

You remember, that attempt to misrepresent the chat logs

Yes, "quoting our words in full is misrepresenting us."

And you're still too deluded to figure out why it isn't working, aren't you.

But wait... oh noes! Zontar! I'm the Real Racist? I did not see that coming, that's really outside the box.

Actually I am still patiently waiting on you to reply to a number of points across multiple posts, but I will settle for the latest one at least. And I suppose being a bit snarky because you left it open for me to be with that "starts with M" comment. But yeah, saying that someone responding to a woman because of her stated opinion or stance is misogyny is misrepresenting why they are interacting with her from the actual reason (that of the different stance or opinion) and trying to insist it is something else in a dishonest portrayal (that of the claims you make that it is because she is a woman)

But yeah, serious talk now, you going to address this point?

You know, you are saying here that whenever a female representative doesn't agree is when people start to call them out, readily admitting that it is "when they disagree" and not because of the gender of the person involved, and yet still want to try to hint at what you were hinting at? Seems to actually be arguing that it isn't a hatred of women that motivates people but rather the personal opinions and stances they disagree with, as though they would get the same reaction if they weren't women. Kinda like one Kuchera perhaps?

So, would you readily admit then that why people disagree and criticize these women is not because they are women and is instead because what they say itself is found disagreeable?

And in relation to the larger thread topic itself, would helping spread this information around, that the disagreement has nothing to do with the gender of the people involved and everything to do with their actual stances and opinions as individuals and thus misogyny is not the motivation behind gamergate itself? You know, I think you are on to something there, thank you for that one, it should help a lot in trying to help people learn about this whole movement.

 

[Zontar]

Can't say that I agree with the op. Gamer gate is fighting for justice, freedom and equality. That is a wonderful image to have.

The problem is that a lot of people have been fooled by the smear campaign against it.

 

[Quadocky]

I don't think anti-feminism is a key issue in the least so much as anti-moral authority posturing under the guise of feminism. And it is because of that I would answer no to the second one as well. I have talked to a lot of people because of this, and it seems every time I talk to them about this, even if they rabidly hate "SJW" types, it is very easy to help them see that it is not those promoting social advocacy that are the ones they have a problem with, but rather those who abuse the causes to manipulate and manufacture outrage.

Hell, posted in the main thread, this sort of sums that up entirely.

This image as a perfect example of Willful Ignorance. There is no other way I can describe it.

Where do you find this stuff?

it is not those promoting social advocacy that are the ones they have a problem with, but rather those who abuse the causes to manipulate and manufacture outrage.

Which has never happened ever? I don't get where this sentiment comes from at all.

 

[runic knight]

Can't say that I agree with the op. Gamer gate is fighting for justice, freedom and equality. That is a wonderful image to have.

Yeah, I been with this since before it had name and even I will admit, it isn't being portrayed very well and general opinion of gamergate is flavored heavily by the fact. And that is even before we get into the disorganization, the lack of defined identity and the perception of craziness about the whole ordeal. We have plenty of room for improvement in that regard.

 

[RexMundane]

Also, just made the mistake of stepping into the main thread, now they're attacking Boogie of all damn people as a shill, ZQ for being a Marxist, and more and more "it's all connected" flowcharts. This is... this is getting a bit surreal for me, it's like how you'd write a parody of a paranoid conspiracy theory, and it's happening right in front of us. Breathtaking in its way.

um... what? I see a lot of people getting outraged that someone who was pro-gamergate was actually fired for it, as well as numerious people being doxxed and called at home and being threatened.
You sure you actually went to the right thread?

but hey, have a good laugh there.

I shall show you, nonbeliever. I give you Boogie the Shill [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.860762-GamerGate-Discussion-Debate-and-Resources?page=166#21418181], Zoe the Marxist [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.860762-GamerGate-Discussion-Debate-and-Resources?page=167#21418217], and oh those wonderful flowcharts [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.860762-GamerGate-Discussion-Debate-and-Resources?page=163#21417639].

I also see the other stuff, and people being targeted like that is shitty behavior no matter whose side you're on. If privacy/security has been breached like that it's worth all their time to contact the police... which, and I hate to feel like I'm going off tangentially again, but that's part of why it makes Milo such a shitheel when he's mocking and shaming people for having perfectly sensible reactions to such threats and invasions of privacy.

 

[runic knight]

This image as a perfect example of Willful Ignorance. There is no other way I can describe it.

Where do you find this stuff?

it is not those promoting social advocacy that are the ones they have a problem with, but rather those who abuse the causes to manipulate and manufacture outrage.

Which has never happened ever? I don't get where this sentiment comes from at all.

Wait, the post I used as an example of how people can change what they think is their foe to the tactics and behaviors that underlay that assumption is being willfully ignorant? Or did you simple see the post and go "well, I disagree, all gamergate is hateful monsters so it must be untrue and the point he was trying to make is irrelevant since the example he used is something I personally don't believe in"?

What do you mean "never happened"? Hell, I gave you a perfect example of it historically with the McCarthyism example.

You know, I get the feeling you aren't actually reading my posts at this point.

 

[runic knight]

Also, just made the mistake of stepping into the main thread, now they're attacking Boogie of all damn people as a shill, ZQ for being a Marxist, and more and more "it's all connected" flowcharts. This is... this is getting a bit surreal for me, it's like how you'd write a parody of a paranoid conspiracy theory, and it's happening right in front of us. Breathtaking in its way.

um... what? I see a lot of people getting outraged that someone who was pro-gamergate was actually fired for it, as well as numerious people being doxxed and called at home and being threatened.
You sure you actually went to the right thread?

but hey, have a good laugh there.

I shall show you, nonbeliever. I give you Boogie the Shill [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.860762-GamerGate-Discussion-Debate-and-Resources?page=166#21418181], Zoe the Marxist [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.860762-GamerGate-Discussion-Debate-and-Resources?page=167#21418217], and oh those wonderful flowcharts [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.860762-GamerGate-Discussion-Debate-and-Resources?page=163#21417639].

I also see the other stuff, and people being targeted like that is shitty behavior no matter whose side you're on. If privacy/security has been breached like that it's worth all their time to contact the police... which, and I hate to feel like I'm going off tangentially again, but that's part of why it makes Milo such a shitheel when he's mocking and shaming people for having perfectly sensible reactions to such threats and invasions of privacy.

Ah, when you said "had a look" you meant to say "looked through at least the last 5-10 pages". Alright, I'll be happy to address them.

Boogie: guy says he is sort of a shill but is sorry for boogie anyways. Given how boogie flip flops a bit, that a poster had this opinion of him is bad or surprising?

Zoe: People are looking at events along political and cultural historical lines. Ok. Also I seem to recall this actually being started by archeon himself in the old thread, as he went on about such things for a bit. Is interesting to me but I guess not your bag then?

Flowchart: it is a flowchart. Is that bad? Or does it just look too crazy for you to take seriously and thus deemed mockable?

I'll agree, it is shitty all around and people should contact the authorities where they can. Sadly, some like the people losing jobs do not actually have recourse like that as political view is not as protected a thing when it comes to employment termination.

And Milo is bad man, I know, I know.

 

[Quadocky]

This image as a perfect example of Willful Ignorance. There is no other way I can describe it.

Where do you find this stuff?

it is not those promoting social advocacy that are the ones they have a problem with, but rather those who abuse the causes to manipulate and manufacture outrage.

Which has never happened ever? I don't get where this sentiment comes from at all.

Wait, the post I used as an example of how people can change what they think is their foe to the tactics and behaviors that underlay that assumption is being willfully ignorant? Or did you simple see the post and go "well, I disagree, all gamergate is hateful monsters so it must be untrue and the point he was trying to make is irrelevant since the example he used is something I personally don't believe in"?

What do you mean "never happened"? Hell, I gave you a perfect example of it historically with the McCarthyism example.

You know, I get the feeling you aren't actually reading my posts at this point.

No no no, that Image, the words in it, the guy is basically saying "I have an intense character flaw" and smugly shifts the blame for it on people who would otherwise tell him that "You are being shitty, please stop."

Its the sheer cognitive dissonance. Its frightening to me that people like that actually exist. Doesn't matter what age they are, there is only so much level of sheer absurd one can spew out. He is literally blaming people telling him not to be a shitty person for making him a shitty person.

Also, in the context of video games, the only witchhunts I have seen have been the blacklisting of supposed SJW journalists and the like. Which seem more in the vein of McCarthyism than anything else of late. There is nothing of the sort on the 'other side' if you will aside from a gallery of people laughing at just how absurd it is.