GamerGate's Image Problem

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runic knight

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Quadocky said:
No no no, that Image, the words in it, the guy is basically saying "I have an intense character flaw" and smugly shifts the blame for it on people who would otherwise tell him that "You are being shitty, please stop."

Its the sheer cognitive dissonance. Its frightening to me that people like that actually exist. Doesn't matter what age they are, there is only so much level of sheer absurd one can spew out. He is literally blaming people telling him not to be a shitty person for making him a shitty person.

Also, in the context of video games, the only witchhunts I have seen have been the blacklisting of supposed SJW journalists and the like. Which seem more in the vein of McCarthyism than anything else of late. There is nothing of the sort on the 'other side' if you will aside from a gallery of people laughing at just how absurd it is.
I have to wonder, you do know why ideas like racism, sexism and stuff tend to be prevalent in some places and not in others, and hard to uproot in general? Because your post here... Do you think these people are just inherently flawed as an isolated thing? That people are raised racist or sexist or whatever and thus are broken in that regard? People justify why they think the way they do and that built up defense is why it is so hard to get people set in their ways to change. People don't think of themselves as shitty people in general and the mind does wonders to justify actions, be it based on past experiences, common perception or just reiteration. Racism, sexism, it is all learned but less drilled into someone's head like at school and more built up over time through life and perception.

The person in question had a pretty big flaw there, but then realized what was the underlying reason for it and realized in this case it was a misplaced association. In terms of my point, it showcased that people can identify underlying reasons why they dislike, say "SJW", when they can be shown that no, it isn't social justice advocates they hate but rather the people who manipulate and so forth. In terms of them, it essentially derailed the mindset that was forming the misogyny and other shit and forced them to realize "Hey, I don't actually hate these people, I hate what some of these assholes are doing and doing in the name of those people. These people can be pretty cool actually". It honestly represents the only actual damn way to ever combat racism, sexism or any of that: people figuring out why it isn't right. And I don't mean along a moral sort in that, but along the built up lines of reasoning and justifications.

But hey, guess since he was shitty to start with, doesn't matter why he changed or that he did, because he was shit to start with.

Considering what is going on in the megathread right now, your second half is sadly hysterical in all the worse ways though.

also, side note but serious, why is everyone named bob? Moviebob, bobleponge, bob from earlier, darkmagebob... everyone is a bob.
 

RexMundane

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runic knight said:
RexMundane said:
runic knight said:
RexMundane said:
Also, just made the mistake of stepping into the main thread, now they're attacking Boogie of all damn people as a shill, ZQ for being a Marxist, and more and more "it's all connected" flowcharts. This is... this is getting a bit surreal for me, it's like how you'd write a parody of a paranoid conspiracy theory, and it's happening right in front of us. Breathtaking in its way.
um... what? I see a lot of people getting outraged that someone who was pro-gamergate was actually fired for it, as well as numerious people being doxxed and called at home and being threatened.
You sure you actually went to the right thread?

but hey, have a good laugh there.
I shall show you, nonbeliever. I give you Boogie the Shill [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.860762-GamerGate-Discussion-Debate-and-Resources?page=166#21418181], Zoe the Marxist [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.860762-GamerGate-Discussion-Debate-and-Resources?page=167#21418217], and oh those wonderful flowcharts [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.860762-GamerGate-Discussion-Debate-and-Resources?page=163#21417639].

I also see the other stuff, and people being targeted like that is shitty behavior no matter whose side you're on. If privacy/security has been breached like that it's worth all their time to contact the police... which, and I hate to feel like I'm going off tangentially again, but that's part of why it makes Milo such a shitheel when he's mocking and shaming people for having perfectly sensible reactions to such threats and invasions of privacy.
Ah, when you said "had a look" you meant to say "looked through at least the last 5-10 pages". Alright, I'll be happy to address them.

Boogie: guy says he is sort of a shill but is sorry for boogie anyways. Given how boogie flip flops a bit, that a poster had this opinion of him is bad or surprising?

Zoe: People are looking at events along political and cultural historical lines. Ok. Also I seem to recall this actually being started by archeon himself in the old thread, as he went on about such things for a bit. Is interesting to me but I guess not your bag then?

Flowchart: it is a flowchart. Is that bad? Or does it just look too crazy for you to take seriously and thus deemed mockable?

I'll agree, it is shitty all around and people should contact the authorities where they can. Sadly, some like the people losing jobs do not actually have recourse like that as political view is not as protected a thing when it comes to employment termination.

And Milo is bad man, I know, I know.
Sorry, am I supposed to feel bad that I've been following the thread for a while? Cause... well now that I actually come to say it, yeah, I kinda feel pretty rotten about it. Maybe I'm getting obsessive with this nonsense to an unhealthy degree... I gotta go and rethink my life...

Re Boogie: People are allowed to change positions and have whatever opinions they like, it's specifically the use of "Shill," particularly of a figure that both sides generally respect for doing what he can to keep things civil, that ties into the whole weird conspiracy thing. Likewise with the "She's a Commie" thing, and the latest in a long-line of obtuse "it's all connected" charts. This is how paranoid fantasy conspiracy theorists talk. Again, bringing it back to optics, that whole thing would be good to minimize.

Likewise, and I don't want to re-hash the whole Milo thing, but people who were trying to attack Sarkeesian for calling the cops over death threats are pretty much without a leg to stand on when asking for sympathy for victims on their own side. Lack of human empathy just looks awful, and again, won't win you any favors.
 

runic knight

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Nirallus said:
BlackMageBob said:
Kotaku
Kotaku
Polygon
Kotaku
Gamasutra
Kotaku
These sites have revealed themselves to have zero credibility.
I think the point he was making is that those sites are committing witch hunts in contradict to Quadocky's claims.
 

Quadocky

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smokratez said:
Quadocky said:
runic knight said:
Quadocky said:
This image as a perfect example of Willful Ignorance. There is no other way I can describe it.

Where do you find this stuff?

it is not those promoting social advocacy that are the ones they have a problem with, but rather those who abuse the causes to manipulate and manufacture outrage.
Which has never happened ever? I don't get where this sentiment comes from at all.

Wait, the post I used as an example of how people can change what they think is their foe to the tactics and behaviors that underlay that assumption is being willfully ignorant? Or did you simple see the post and go "well, I disagree, all gamergate is hateful monsters so it must be untrue and the point he was trying to make is irrelevant since the example he used is something I personally don't believe in"?

What do you mean "never happened"? Hell, I gave you a perfect example of it historically with the McCarthyism example.

You know, I get the feeling you aren't actually reading my posts at this point.
No no no, that Image, the words in it, the guy is basically saying "I have an intense character flaw" and smugly shifts the blame for it on people who would otherwise tell him that "You are being shitty, please stop."

Its the sheer cognitive dissonance. Its frightening to me that people like that actually exist. Doesn't matter what age they are, there is only so much level of sheer absurd one can spew out. He is literally blaming people telling him not to be a shitty person for making him a shitty person.

Also, in the context of video games, the only witchhunts I have seen have been the blacklisting of supposed SJW journalists and the like. Which seem more in the vein of McCarthyism than anything else of late. There is nothing of the sort on the 'other side' if you will aside from a gallery of people laughing at just how absurd it is.
Didn't someone from their side try to get a charity to get more women into game development black listed?
Its not a charity?
 

aliengmr

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runic

First off, I won't ask you or anyone else to take what I say as anything more than my personal perspective on the matter. I will say I have devoted a fair amount of time to many sides of this well before my first comment. I also, like literally everyone else, want games journalism improved.

Now, when we talk about who said what to who and what is said to what gender, it confuses the issue. I do not think Zoe Quinn was completely innocent. However I do think the the hatred for her is much more complex than just misogyny. It all relates to what she actually did, she cheated. This is, I believe, the source that spawns a lot of dislike for her. The story was likely similar for many, including myself. And yes, I did not like her for it. Combine that with everything else and you really start to see why people wouldn't stop talking about her. She was a symbol for the people that hurt us the most in our own lives. This story combined with the articles and all the infighting and it starts getting clearer why we are here now.

About the misogyny. This is going in to why I think we are confusing the issue. Where we disagree is how we we are "defining" misogyny. You are looking at it in a very rational, almost mathematical way, which on the surface seem like a rational thing to do. But misogyny is not a rational concept anymore, very much like racism. In that, for many, the problem ended years ago, so when it happens we tend to look at it very black and white. The reactions aren't solely out of a clear hatred and or distrust for women, but to a perceived outsider. As someone making a criticism they have no business making. That is not a rational thought, but that's the start, and after that we start build rational behind that. Here's the problem, its hard to recognize or rationalize and it angers people because they're telling themselves they don't treat women as they did 50 years ago, and they are right. But its reacting to the outside criticism that riles people up.

There was 2 articles I saw and both were similar. Both were early views of Destiny and both had less than favorable, not bad, things to say about it. One of these had a measurably higher difference of opinion, I'll let you guess the differences. That could had been for various reasons, I won't deny it. And if you toss out the "back to the kitchen" comments you could make the case. But it was always the women that seemed to produce a stronger reaction when presenting arguments. Men get reactions as well, of course, but this is where the "mathematical" thought process comes in to play, its not the comments, its the tone. Its how quick we jump in the fight. Its the weird shit we can't see.

This is NOT my proof that gamers are misogynist. This is my argument that gamers react. Misogyny is a tough word since it doesn't just mean hate, but also distrust. Gamers distrust outside critique, I don't need to prove that. But if you look at the reaction to Anita Sarkeesian's videos, not comment by comment, but the big picture, its possible to see something different. See she expressed an opinion on certain tropes as she sees them, that's all. Its not a referendum on games development. Its not a list of demands. She clearly states it isn't, its an opinion and for the most part its backed up, there's very little ways to argue against them.

Little example, for arguments sake think of a game you love...I think it sucks, I didn't like x, y, and z. Now you could argue why you like it but you can't prove me wrong either. But I'm a gamer, you know this and you know its pointless to debate opinions after a point.

See regardless of what was accurate or not at the end of the day it was one persons opinion. If she was a man do you honestly think his videos would still be talked about? No, they would have been forgotten a long time ago. She is an outsider and a threat.

Sexism and misogyny exist in the world, we know this. Gaming is reaching adulthood, and here we are. You want proof of what I'm saying just look. Gender is an issue, people wouldn't be fighting the great SJW threat to games if it wasn't an issue.

Gamergate has so many issues its dealing with. We are all looking in a mirror right now. I know you don't hate women I don't either, we both still react, the difference is I'm not trying to rationalize it or mathematically put it in to a formula that makes sense, I realized I view life through a particular lens that colors everything I see and experience.


I fully understand that I will be completely disregarded in many cases. Gamergate is the reaction to so many things including ourselves and it happens to have serious issues thrown in the mix. As I see it the only way to address concerns is by separating them.
 

runic knight

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RexMundane said:
Sorry, am I supposed to feel bad that I've been following the thread for a while? Cause... well now that I actually come to say it, yeah, I kinda feel pretty rotten about it. Maybe I'm getting obsessive with this nonsense to an unhealthy degree... I gotta go and rethink my life...

Re Boogie: People are allowed to change positions and have whatever opinions they like, it's specifically the use of "Shill," particularly of a figure that both sides generally respect for doing what he can to keep things civil, that ties into the whole weird conspiracy thing. Likewise with the "She's a Commie" thing, and the latest in a long-line of obtuse "it's all connected" charts. This is how paranoid fantasy conspiracy theorists talk. Again, bringing it back to optics, that whole thing would be good to minimize.

Likewise, and I don't want to re-hash the whole Milo thing, but people who were trying to attack Sarkeesian for calling the cops over death threats are pretty much without a leg to stand on when asking for sympathy for victims on their own side. Lack of human empathy just looks awful, and again, won't win you any favors.
I think part of why the poster in the thread was worried he was a shill may also have to do with how he was contacted before and pretty much had his career threatened with future blacklisting if he didn't back off. Fits wit hthat whole "I feel sorry for him" bit of the post too. Just saying.

I get it, you harp on it enough that it is a conspiracy theory, but I fail to see how people reading too much into the connections of wrongdoing somehow devalue the actual evidence of connections and wrongdoing already revealed.

I think given how the milo thing turned out last time, for the sake of civilized discussion, might be best to avoid going into him again in this topic. That said, I am pretty sure I said there is a lot of terrible stuff happening on both sides already, but if not, well, there it is: There is a lot of terrible behavior on both sides, it is just weird when one side is a general mob of anonymous people which includes any sort of rabblerouser or opportunist and who are largely using anonymity to commit these horrible acts and the other are a bunch of public personalities and yet there is terrible behavior on both sides. Yes all the people should be condemned for it, but why do so few seem to get the outrage that "professionals" are acting in the same manner as nameless faceless trolls like it was acceptable behavior.
 

Quadocky

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runic knight said:
Quadocky said:
No no no, that Image, the words in it, the guy is basically saying "I have an intense character flaw" and smugly shifts the blame for it on people who would otherwise tell him that "You are being shitty, please stop."

Its the sheer cognitive dissonance. Its frightening to me that people like that actually exist. Doesn't matter what age they are, there is only so much level of sheer absurd one can spew out. He is literally blaming people telling him not to be a shitty person for making him a shitty person.

Also, in the context of video games, the only witchhunts I have seen have been the blacklisting of supposed SJW journalists and the like. Which seem more in the vein of McCarthyism than anything else of late. There is nothing of the sort on the 'other side' if you will aside from a gallery of people laughing at just how absurd it is.
I have to wonder, you do know why ideas like racism, sexism and stuff tend to be prevalent in some places and not in others, and hard to uproot in general? Because your post here... Do you think these people are just inherently flawed as an isolated thing? That people are raised racist or sexist or whatever and thus are broken in that regard? People justify why they think the way they do and that built up defense is why it is so hard to get people set in their ways to change. People don't think of themselves as shitty people in general and the mind does wonders to justify actions, be it based on past experiences, common perception or just reiteration. Racism, sexism, it is all learned but less drilled into someone's head like at school and more built up over time through life and perception.

The person in question had a pretty big flaw there, but then realized what was the underlying reason for it and realized in this case it was a misplaced association. In terms of my point, it showcased that people can identify underlying reasons why they dislike, say "SJW", when they can be shown that no, it isn't social justice advocates they hate but rather the people who manipulate and so forth. In terms of them, it essentially derailed the mindset that was forming the misogyny and other shit and forced them to realize "Hey, I don't actually hate these people, I hate what some of these assholes are doing and doing in the name of those people. These people can be pretty cool actually". It honestly represents the only actual damn way to ever combat racism, sexism or any of that: people figuring out why it isn't right. And I don't mean along a moral sort in that, but along the built up lines of reasoning and justifications.

But hey, guess since he was shitty to start with, doesn't matter why he changed or that he did, because he was shit to start with.

Considering what is going on in the megathread right now, your second half is sadly hysterical in all the worse ways though.

also, side note but serious, why is everyone named bob? Moviebob, bobleponge, bob from earlier, darkmagebob... everyone is a bob.
But what he is supposedly complaining about isn't actually happening. Maybe in a misconstrued superficial way in bizzaro-world but not what is actually happening.
 

RexMundane

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runic knight said:
RexMundane said:
Sorry, am I supposed to feel bad that I've been following the thread for a while? Cause... well now that I actually come to say it, yeah, I kinda feel pretty rotten about it. Maybe I'm getting obsessive with this nonsense to an unhealthy degree... I gotta go and rethink my life...

Re Boogie: People are allowed to change positions and have whatever opinions they like, it's specifically the use of "Shill," particularly of a figure that both sides generally respect for doing what he can to keep things civil, that ties into the whole weird conspiracy thing. Likewise with the "She's a Commie" thing, and the latest in a long-line of obtuse "it's all connected" charts. This is how paranoid fantasy conspiracy theorists talk. Again, bringing it back to optics, that whole thing would be good to minimize.

Likewise, and I don't want to re-hash the whole Milo thing, but people who were trying to attack Sarkeesian for calling the cops over death threats are pretty much without a leg to stand on when asking for sympathy for victims on their own side. Lack of human empathy just looks awful, and again, won't win you any favors.
I think part of why the poster in the thread was worried he was a shill may also have to do with how he was contacted before and pretty much had his career threatened with future blacklisting if he didn't back off. Fits wit hthat whole "I feel sorry for him" bit of the post too. Just saying.

I get it, you harp on it enough that it is a conspiracy theory, but I fail to see how people reading too much into the connections of wrongdoing somehow devalue the actual evidence of connections and wrongdoing already revealed.

I think given how the milo thing turned out last time, for the sake of civilized discussion, might be best to avoid going into him again in this topic. That said, I am pretty sure I said there is a lot of terrible stuff happening on both sides already, but if not, well, there it is: There is a lot of terrible behavior on both sides, it is just weird when one side is a general mob of anonymous people and the other are a bunch of public personalities and yet there is terrible behavior on both sides. Yes the people should be condemned for it, but why do so few seem to get the outrage that "professionals" are acting in the same manner as nameless faceless trolls like it was acceptable behavior.
I'm not clear on what you mean by that last bit, are you arguing that, say, Kuchera got that one guy fired or something? Or is the equivalent behavior basically the whole hostile tweet thing? Because I mean, after a month of absorbing this shit it'd be a shock if people didn't react this way. You can't treat people like animals only to act surprised when they behave like them.

Yes they should be better than that. We all should. But we're not. This is the internet. We're all monsters here.
 

aliengmr

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runic knight said:
Quadocky said:
This image as a perfect example of Willful Ignorance. There is no other way I can describe it.

Where do you find this stuff?

it is not those promoting social advocacy that are the ones they have a problem with, but rather those who abuse the causes to manipulate and manufacture outrage.
Which has never happened ever? I don't get where this sentiment comes from at all.

Wait, the post I used as an example of how people can change what they think is their foe to the tactics and behaviors that underlay that assumption is being willfully ignorant? Or did you simple see the post and go "well, I disagree, all gamergate is hateful monsters so it must be untrue and the point he was trying to make is irrelevant since the example he used is something I personally don't believe in"?

What do you mean "never happened"? Hell, I gave you a perfect example of it historically with the McCarthyism example.

You know, I get the feeling you aren't actually reading my posts at this point.
I saw this as well and it upset me too. This supposed "feel good" story is nothing more than a hateful person shifting the hate to a different group. They didn't come to the realization to NOT hate. There was not actual change or remorse just "SJWs are way worse". Which has already been shown to be a term so far reaching and toxic that its hard to define anymore.

Homophobic all their life and the mention of "SJWs" and bang all that's changed?
 

BlackMageBob

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Quadocky said:
Its not a charity?
A group that accepts money to provide a public good with no profit incentive is not a charity?
See 3.A, or 3.B

Merriam-webster:

1 : benevolent goodwill toward or love of humanity
2
a : generosity and helpfulness especially toward the needy or suffering; also : aid given to those in need
b : an institution engaged in relief of the poor
c : public provision for the relief of the needy
3
a : a gift for public benevolent purposes
b : an institution (as a hospital) founded by such a gift
4 : lenient judgment of others
 

Quadocky

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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
runic knight said:
I don't think anti-feminism is a key issue in the least so much as anti-moral authority posturing under the guise of feminism. And it is because of that I would answer no to the second one as well. I have talked to a lot of people because of this, and it seems every time I talk to them about this, even if they rabidly hate "SJW" types, it is very easy to help them see that it is not those promoting social advocacy that are the ones they have a problem with, but rather those who abuse the causes to manipulate and manufacture outrage.

Hell, posted in the main thread, this sort of sums that up entirely.
Fun fact, the first, second and fourth feminist 'movements' all failed because they caused exactly what that guy said in that post. They acted in such a terrible manner that everyone got pissed off. Apparently that's a really bad way to gain support. Hell, if it wasn't for the extremely liberal stance because created by much of the youth in the 60s, the third feminist movement would have failed pretty damn hard too. Feminists groups are useless movements, who never help anyone, and hurt as many as they can, women the most. And whether or not there is good feminists or the majority are good, the movements always have caused more problems because exactly what that post states.
Wow. And let me guess, you don't have proof for any of this (Especially the existence of a 'fourth feminist movement')

Tell me HOW exactly feminists are pissing people off huh?
 

Quadocky

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smokratez said:
Quadocky said:
smokratez said:
Quadocky said:
runic knight said:
Quadocky said:
This image as a perfect example of Willful Ignorance. There is no other way I can describe it.

Where do you find this stuff?

it is not those promoting social advocacy that are the ones they have a problem with, but rather those who abuse the causes to manipulate and manufacture outrage.
Which has never happened ever? I don't get where this sentiment comes from at all.

Wait, the post I used as an example of how people can change what they think is their foe to the tactics and behaviors that underlay that assumption is being willfully ignorant? Or did you simple see the post and go "well, I disagree, all gamergate is hateful monsters so it must be untrue and the point he was trying to make is irrelevant since the example he used is something I personally don't believe in"?

What do you mean "never happened"? Hell, I gave you a perfect example of it historically with the McCarthyism example.

You know, I get the feeling you aren't actually reading my posts at this point.
No no no, that Image, the words in it, the guy is basically saying "I have an intense character flaw" and smugly shifts the blame for it on people who would otherwise tell him that "You are being shitty, please stop."

Its the sheer cognitive dissonance. Its frightening to me that people like that actually exist. Doesn't matter what age they are, there is only so much level of sheer absurd one can spew out. He is literally blaming people telling him not to be a shitty person for making him a shitty person.

Also, in the context of video games, the only witchhunts I have seen have been the blacklisting of supposed SJW journalists and the like. Which seem more in the vein of McCarthyism than anything else of late. There is nothing of the sort on the 'other side' if you will aside from a gallery of people laughing at just how absurd it is.
Didn't someone from their side try to get a charity to get more women into game development black listed?
Its not a charity?
What is not a charity? Sorry to ask, but do you know what I am talking about, since you sound a bit vague.
The Fine Young Captalists is a Not-For-Profit organization. That is different from a charity. (If I am reading into this correctly. I can't find the snippit I am looking for to explain)
 

Amakaze

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So, generally I usually just lurk about the forums and don't post very much, but I've been following the gamergate thing, like a lot of gamers, and feel the need to add in my piece, despite the fact that the odds of changing someone's mind on the internet are probably about as high as walking away from Vegas richer than you entered. It can be done, with a lot of effort, but it's still pretty unlikely. Saving people time if they just want to categorize 'pro' or 'against' and move on, I'm against.

Let's put aside Zoe Quinn for a minute. It was a pretty ugly way to start any kind of movement, but both sides seem to (mostly) agree on that much, with much disagreement about whether it colors the whole movement. I do believe that positive things can come from poor beginnings (Even though, pointing to the original topic, the name is problematic. Something-gate indicates a scandal, named after the famous Watergate incident, so claiming that as a movement title while simultaneously trying to distance one's self from the original fizzled scandal is going to be difficult, and worrying about losing all the support with a name change does sort of imply a large number of people aren't going to follow to a movement focused on journalistic ethics).

Lets put aside the trolls, doxxing, and idiocy. Those things are important, certainly, but we're talking about the base of the movement now. It's the internet, which excuses nothing, but I have no doubt that both sides have their attackers. Any movement has its poor representatives and the internet has the whipped cream topping of people who care about neither side but get their kicks making other people angry. I have no doubt that some of the hacks are neither fake nor perpetrated by members of their respective movement, but are targets of opportunity to see the internet catch fire again. By the same token, I'm quite sure there's a lot of very legitimate abuse going out. I think a 'pox on both your houses' mentality is a bit simplistic, but lets examine things in a vacuum for now and pretend that it all equals out.

The problem, as I see, it with the gamergate image is that you have two very different goals that only match if you have a particular mindset. The first goal is the stated one. Journalistic integrity, to which the overwhelming response from most media personality appears to be 'Yeah, it's a problem I've been talking about for years. Welcome to the party, I hope you stay for the chips and we might have enough people to get something done.'. I never looked particularly hard, but I can remember reading articles in my usual web crawls about the nature of the gaming press and its total dependance on publishers good graces, and what a bind that puts the major news sites in. Sure, you can break an embargo date or whatever else if you want, once, but publishers are under no legal obligation to share things with particular sites. The public has no inherent 'need to know' about an entertainment game, the way they do about things on a political level, so they can't be forced to share evenly with everyone. So any site that came down too hard on things simply got cut off from the pump and the gaming public will go to whoever has the information. If I'm thinking about a game and IGN has a review and Kotaku doesn't, I'm probably not going to look into whether Kotaku wrote a scathing review a few months back from the same company. I'm just going to go to the one who has what I'm looking for. That's a problem, a big problem, and it will take us working together to make any sort of dent in it.

The second goal is the problem, and it's the issue about the so called SJWs infiltrating the medium. This is where the image problem is arising, because the 'Us and them' mentality is in full effect. On both this threat and the main one, I've been disturbed by the 'war footing' analogies people drop into. Read back through posts and you'll see countless examples. 'Their side, my side' 'We might win a battle, but lose the war' 'We will fight on, no matter what they say' 'We must hold fast, until the siege passes' and on and on. We have a side, and we have an enemy, and the enemy are SJWs. Many of the questions and ideas are about how to 'fight'. Should we call them SJWs? How about terrorists? No, that's too strong, how about parasites? How can we 'win'? Is this bad for the movement, or good for it? What are 'they' doing, and how can we counter their 'influence'. Who is corrupted by them and who is standing tall?

This creates most of the negative aspects of gamergate. Vivian James and #NotYourShield are related to gamergate, but they really shouldn't be, since they aren't related to journalistic integrity UNLESS you believe that holding these beliefs about diversity in gaming are themselves unethical. #NotYourShield strikes me as particularly ironic. I don't believe they're all sockpuppets (Some are, certainly, but my world view includes the possibility that women and PoC might think differently than me) but they ARE, doubtless, being used as a shield. It's the shield against the accusation of Misogyny or Racism in the movement, something to point to that proves it false. We can't possibly be misogynistic or racist because some minorities and women support us. #NotYourShield is a tactic, created to counter SJWs. Vivian James is an avatar created when 4chan donated to charity, again to counter SJWs. It's entirely possible I missed important details in one of the several hundred page threads, but neither is concerned with journalism. Neither is worried about ethics. Both are employed against the stated enemy, SJWS, Feminists, and so forth.

But these are rooted in deep conspiracy theories that seem to be built on the shakiest of foundations, assuming coordination when a simple disagreement of thought is much more likely. One of the most difficult things to learn as humans is that other people might legitimately see things differently than us, and as a result we tend to describe a certain amount of malice to things where there is none. 'That person KNOWS what's true, but they still insist on being dumb' we say to ourselves, with a certain sense of smugness, unaware that the other person is doing the same. If a site posts an article that describes a shooter as good, but describes the protagonist as 'The same grizzled white guy with brown hair as always', maybe it's a strike for a feminist agenda to remove male characters from video games...or maybe that person is tired of those type of protagonist, and would like to play something else. If many different gaming publish articles exploring the idea of female, or gay, or PoC protagonists in games, the reaction of publishers, and the reaction of gamers, perhaps they're trying to tear down the games we know and love in coordination with one another for maximum impact while generating endless clickbait...or maybe some of their audience actually finds those studies interesting and hopeful for a future of games that explore new viewpoints in addition to the old. If threads about the issue were banned almost as soon as they could appear for days around the incident, perhaps its a conspiracy in the industry to silence anyone who speaks out against the narrative...or maybe some sites were nervous about publishing salacious details on a shaky evidential foundation (proven by the fact many of the initial claims proved to be incorrect or at least incomplete, though not all) and, given the internet's usual lack of calm and reason for these things, decided they wanted no part of it on their site.

If you've ever wondered how people seem to get so twisted up in cults or the strangest, least logical systems. If you've ever laughed at religious people doing what you consider to be silly or stupid things, or politicians who opened their mouth when they really should have kept it closed, this is how. (Note: For clarity, not calling Gamergate a cult by any stretch. Those are the sort of thing that develop over years and years). First, everyone else is wrong, but they're deliberately hiding the truth (the infamous 'red pill', in feminism discussions, but there are many versions). Second, this is affecting you deeply, and will ruin what you care about. Third, our voices are not mainstream because they're being silenced by a coordinated effort, which is why the information is so sketchy or hard to find. Fourth, here's a list of terminology to use among members. Use it enough in conversations between one another, and you stop thinking about whether its really true. Its a way to build walls and separate dissenting opinions out, so that people are truly shocked when they repeat what they always say in the echo chamber, and find the world incredulous and hostile, thus reinforcing the conspiracy theory. Skepticism is your best defense, and apply it everywhere, but most particularly to anyone who tries to tell you a secret 'they' don't want you to know. A lack of skepticism in a movement that should be full of it (given the journalistic leanings) has been a real issue. People spend pages and pages talking about a good review exchanged for sex, only it didn't occur, rally around a tweet that a police report was never filed, only it was, and spend the first twenty or thirty pages laughing at reddit mods for 'trying to spin' the shadowbanning of a poster for asking Julian Asange a question...only he was already banned before the question (Thank God the poster came forward. I doubt anyone who have believed the mods). Step back a bit. Maybe go "That would be bad, what's the source? Has anyone else looked into it? What does the accused say?" The more rational ends of the movement are not helped when they have to spend all of their time trying to answer the numerous times the gun has been jumped.

The point is, there are people out there who disagree with you, some of them rational thinking beings. The idea that your enemy can only be described as malicious cis straight white male haters or poor innocent sheep mislead because 'social justice warriors' sounds like too noble a title is not giving your fellow human beings much credit. I'm for journalistic ethics, I'm against gamergate because I don't feel that it will lead anywhere near those goals. You don't have to change your views, you don't have to stop fighting, you don't have to join hands with the opposition and sing a song.

But think about what's important to you and ask yourself if the people around you seem to be interested in the same thing. If they are, all power to you, but this is my stop.
 

Quadocky

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Aug 30, 2012
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smokratez said:
Quadocky said:
Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
runic knight said:
I don't think anti-feminism is a key issue in the least so much as anti-moral authority posturing under the guise of feminism. And it is because of that I would answer no to the second one as well. I have talked to a lot of people because of this, and it seems every time I talk to them about this, even if they rabidly hate "SJW" types, it is very easy to help them see that it is not those promoting social advocacy that are the ones they have a problem with, but rather those who abuse the causes to manipulate and manufacture outrage.

Hell, posted in the main thread, this sort of sums that up entirely.
Fun fact, the first, second and fourth feminist 'movements' all failed because they caused exactly what that guy said in that post. They acted in such a terrible manner that everyone got pissed off. Apparently that's a really bad way to gain support. Hell, if it wasn't for the extremely liberal stance because created by much of the youth in the 60s, the third feminist movement would have failed pretty damn hard too. Feminists groups are useless movements, who never help anyone, and hurt as many as they can, women the most. And whether or not there is good feminists or the majority are good, the movements always have caused more problems because exactly what that post states.
Wow. And let me guess, you don't have proof for any of this (Especially the existence of a 'fourth feminist movement')

Tell me HOW exactly feminists are pissing people off huh?
I can answer the last one from my own perspective. By telling me that I hate women, because I play video games. That one is annoying. But I am not sure that who is saying that is even a feminist. A real feminist wouldn't try to divide people, but instead try to bring them together.

Another one is that so called feminists hate men and can hold this opinion publicly, without any repercussions from society. Hating a sex makes you a sexist, not a feminist. But again, that one is not a real feminist either. I guess it's better to say that feminist impersonators are pissing people off, instead of that real feminists are doing that.
Nobody is saying that you hate women because you play video games. Who is saying this? I have yet to see any of this from anywhere.

I am too sleepy to even attempt to understand what you are getting at with your second bit.