GamerGate's Image Problem

[RexMundane]

Post I wrote hours ago before the DDOS:

Didn't the police officer give the wrong information though? I thought that Milo guy corrected himself after receiving the right information. Didn't that happen?

I hate re-addressing this over and over, particularly since it seems so few will listen, but short answer, no. Officer Esparza of the SFPD said he couldn't, at the time of the email, find any information about the case. Milo claimed, as a result, that this was "confirmation" of his pre-conceived notion, that there was no case, and that Anita lied about filing the police report.

SFPD: I've researched the incident and thus far unable to locate any information on the alleged incident.

M.Y.: SFPD has confirmed to me that it received no complaint from Anita Sarkeesian in August, as she claims.

Spoiler

[img src=http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/cant+stop+the+happening+train+_092140_5290900.png][/spoiler]

One officer says he personally can't find case information, and Milo claims that as proof positive from the entire department there is no case. Milo's defenders tend to fall back on "well that's what they told him at the time," as a defense for this embarassment, and it patently wasn't.

Yet even if it were, that wouldn't excuse failing to find corroborating sources, trying to speak to the people involved, just plain waiting a little while longer, etc., before making any statement at all, much less pointing and screaming "Liar!", publically mocking his target, and throwing himself a party on 4chan.

He did tweet 18 hrs later to make the correction, yes, omitting the hashtag as he did, and without admitting his mistake or apologizing for it, and while still trying to question "the merits of her complaints."

Optimistic conclusion from all this, if he's not actively being malicious and false, then he's just plain awful at the basics of his job.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

You can't tell me this isn't about misogyny, because people only cared when it was a woman accused doing something wrong. For more reading on how to rally a movement based on covertly appealing to your base's hatreds, read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy.

It's not about misogyny. It was the straw that broke the camel's back.
People have been talking shit about game's journalism for years. Feminist-SJW rhetoric and apologism have been going on for years.

The only reason this blew up is because people EVERYWHERE were being censored, meaning you weren't allowed to even talk about this. The only reason the original Escapist thread was allowed to be up was because Greg Tito didn't follow the request by the other people at JournoPro. Meanwhile, reddit, 4chan, and people other websites were censored for talking about it, huge abuse of power. Look up Streisand Effect.

GamerGate and Five Guys would have died in less than 2 weeks if:
1. No one had been censored.
2. Journalists had DONE THEIR JOB and reported on the whole thing instead of trying to paint this thing as misogynist plot.

By Quinn's own definition she raped Eron. Eron posted proof.
Phil Fish bullied his friend into silence, why? For daring to say that Quinn MOLESTED HIM.

Journalists didn't care.

Yet, when a male developer was accused of rape, journalists were all over it.
It's a huge double standard. I want to know why it's there.

Imagine if Zoe was a man who had done the same things, and no one was allowed to talk about it. Wouldn't that be fucked up?

 

[RexMundane]

People wonder "Why now is the explosion this big, compared to the others in the past?", some implying "must be misogyny".

But for those who are genuinely asking, the answer is quite simple, and has yet to be refuted; The Streissand Effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

For an analogy, here is an article on Vulcanism:
http://www.answers.com/Q/How_does_a_volcano_erupt

The vent of the volcano might also be blocked, causing the magma to force its way out, thus causing a huge explosion.

GG keeps saying the whole FiveGuys thing was the vagina that broke the camel's back in all this, but seriously, why? Just a couple months ago UbiSoft was handing out XPeria tablets to reviewers of Watch_Dogs. You couldn't ask for a more clear-cut case of potential bribery, and nary a peep. People didn't look at the relative silence and say it was a Secret Cabal of Ultra-Censors trying to Manipulate Games Media, but with Quinn they did, and are giving the impression that this whole month-long ordeal is to give them the right to call a woman they never met a whore. I mean free speech and all that, but an online forum that doesn't want to be part of a fomenting rage ball directed at one woman's sex life has the right to put a stop to it. It's like they're crying "Streisand" over not being allowed to form a lynch mob in a specific place, as though they're "obligated" somehow to let them shout expletive until their CapsLock breaks.

 

[RexMundane]

I think you're misconstruing the idea of "silence" with "gagging".

And in either case, the silence you claim over the Watchdogs incident is a complete lie:
http://wolfsgamingblog.com/2014/04/15/ubisoft-handed-out-free-nexus-7-tablets-to-watch-dogs-preview-event-attendees/
---

At this point you might as well claim that the Streisand Effect is misogynist because Barbara Streisand is a woman. GG doesn't keep bringing up -----, you do.

Oh, it was reported, and talked about, sure. Just no raging lynch mob calling for anyone's head, no following comment moderation to try and contain the blaze, etc. The Whole Dorito-pope thing, the Kane & Lynch & Gamespot thing, all got mentions and even got people riled up a bit for a couple days, discussions were had, and it died down.

Yet with this? People got just plain hideous over Zoe Quinn (and not, it bears acknowledging, Nathan Greyson, who if there were a scandal would be the one with actual power and therefore the villian) to such a massive degree that forum moderators had to intervene lest risk being complicit in what was rapidly becoming an online lynch mob. You say "Gagging" as though these people were actively prevented from going anywhere they wanted to discuss the finer points of how best to rape her to death in front of her family. They weren't being silenced, they were being told to take it outside.

 

[aliengmr]

runic

My way of defining Misogyny comes from more recent definitions of the word. Yes, it has meant hatred and still does but with the added "deep mistrust" part that was added only recently. I still think it is too strong of a word to describe things, but I don't make the words.

Jack Thompson. Yes, and quite a jerk he was. He was viciously attacked, and the defense against him was right. See he wanted to take your games, more over, he had the power to do it too. His hyperbolic ranting could have convinced legislators to censor games for the sake of the children. Not only was he an outsider, he was a genuine threat.

BUT, and its a big one...

Today good ole Jack could rant for hours and nothing could happen. The guy is powerless and the Supreme Court said as much. An event, it seems, so many gamers don't really care about. Maybe it was because the case wasn't about actually censoring games, I don't know. But the results are the same games are protected speech. This means something. It means games have a right not to be censored.

"Like the protected books, plays, and movies that preceded them, video games communicate ideas-and even social messages-through many familiar literary devices (such as characters, dialogue, plot, and music) and through features distinctive to the medium (such as the player's interaction with the virtual world). That suffices to confer First Amendment protection."


Now, this is where we are now. Yes, on the surface, you are right both were reacted to equally. Except, Anita Sarkeesian made her videos in a time where her critique has no real power. She also had no inclination to censor anything and clearly explained that these tropes could still be used. Again, I'm pointing to the need rush in and counter her ascertains so vociferously when it wasn't really needed at all. Why does she have to be wrong? Why attack her at all?

Regardless of how either of us view the situation it doesn't change the result. By attacking her, Anita Sarkeesian's videos were validated and the industry's views were validated.

Listen, I know what you want from this movement many of us want the same things. But until you accept the fact that, from the outside, gender politics is deeply ingrained in the movement, you are just spinning your wheels. We may have to just agree to disagree.

In fact I really think now its just a fight against SJWs and that's it. The Escapist may have had the right idea in allowing people to talk about this, but was it good for GG? I'm starting not to think so. The message is buried under heaps and heaps of posts "from the front"

From what I can tell, the time has really passed. I mean unless someone stands up drops the tag and tries a different approach, nothing will ever get done. Gamergate is constructing its own enemies, that's not a good sign.

 

[RexMundane]

I think you're misconstruing the idea of "silence" with "gagging".

And in either case, the silence you claim over the Watchdogs incident is a complete lie:
http://wolfsgamingblog.com/2014/04/15/ubisoft-handed-out-free-nexus-7-tablets-to-watch-dogs-preview-event-attendees/
---

At this point you might as well claim that the Streisand Effect is misogynist because Barbara Streisand is a woman. GG doesn't keep bringing up -----, you do.

Oh, it was reported, and talked about, sure. Just no raging lynch mob calling for anyone's head, no following comment moderation to try and contain the blaze, etc. The Whole Dorito-pope thing, the Kane & Lynch & Gamespot thing, all got mentions and even got people riled up a bit for a couple days, discussions were had, and it died down.

Reddit, Neogaf, and other forums weren't banning people and locking threads discussing it, and the people responsible apologized rather than deciding to write articles and tweets insulting their audience.

You say "Gagging" as though these people were actively prevented from going anywhere they wanted to discuss the finer points of how best to rape her to death in front of her family. They weren't being silenced, they were being told to take it outside.

You can make it clear in your response to this, but it doesn't change the fact that you stated it now, and did not elaborate previously. You are basically accusing me and everybody else in the escapist forums discussing this of wanting to rape people. You're arrogant enough to do this because you think that all you have to do if anybody takes offense is say "I'm only joking!" or "I didn't mean you guys!"

No, guess what, we know what you're doing. Stop calling us rapists, stop associating us with rapists. Stop telling us that #GG is about rape.

I said "They," not "You".

You are not a rapist.

GG is not all about rape.

I did not intend to imply that I thought you were a rapist.

What I was saying is that these "discussions" were likely sufficiently full of awful people making such threats that moderators felt it necessary to act.

 

[BlackMageBob]

I said "They," not "You".

You are not a rapist.

GG is not all about rape.

I did not intend to imply that I thought you were a rapist.

What I was saying is that these "discussions" were likely sufficiently full of awful people making such threats that moderators felt it necessary to act.

Then act on the people making those threats, not those holding legitimate discussions. If you cannot handle that, do not have a forum or a comment section. Blanket prohibitions against discussion are what caused the explosion. The arrogance required to shut down a conversation because you don't personally enjoy that discussion, is absolutely remarkable.

The force used against these topics isn't just administrative or moderation tools on forums, it is the force implied through the invocation of heinous, reprehensible acts that are not, and have not been part of the discussion. You keep refocusing the discussion on those two people, and it has moved far, far beyond them. Stop crying misogyny when half the movement is currently screaming for Anthony Burch's head on a stick, and the other half is trying to figure out who brought down the forums, or migrating to a whole new website after an 11-year-old infamous community was split down the middle.

This thread? This thread right here? Is about ZQ. Its about AS. The #GG thread is not, except in the repeated circumstances that media outlets again prop them up to be their protection from criticism. I'm done here. You, Entel, Quadocky and the others keep burying your heads in the sand, and have fun doing it.

 

[aliengmr]

Then act on the people making those threats, not those holding legitimate discussions. If you cannot handle that, do not have a forum or a comment section. Blanket prohibitions against discussion are what caused the explosion. The arrogance required to shut down a conversation because you don't personally enjoy that discussion, is absolutely remarkable.

What about the arrogance to think you have the right to talk about anything you want on a private forum?

The force used against these topics isn't just administrative or moderation tools on forums, it is the force implied through the invocation of heinous, reprehensible acts that are not, and have not been part of the discussion. You keep refocusing the discussion on those two people, and it has moved far, far beyond them. Stop crying misogyny when half the movement is currently screaming for Anthony Burch's head on a stick, and the other half is trying to figure out who brought down the forums, or migrating to a whole new website after an 11-year-old infamous community was split down the middle.

Fair enough, topic at hand then...uhh...hmmm. Oh! the SJW war. Anthony Burch said something, attack!

Anti-GG (whatever the fuck that is) sees thread descending rapidly into wacko land and decides "We need to stop this". "What we'll do is get the thread shutdown" "After that GGers will be totally demoralized to talk about GG, we win!" *evil laugh*

This thread? This thread right here? Is about ZQ. Its about AS. The #GG thread is not, except in the repeated circumstances that media outlets again prop them up to be their protection from criticism. I'm done here. You, Entel, Quadocky and the others keep burying your heads in the sand, and have fun doing it.

GG thread isn't about anything more than...well, I don't know anymore. Seems hell bent on getting people fired for hurting their feelings at this point. It does a good job of making that sound really, really important. Well good luck in the war against whoever it is you are fighting against. Sorry to derail your precious movement by trying to focus on real issues instead of taking down indie devs that don't share the GG social agenda and the "bloggers" that dared to say something nice about them. I'm sure the vast majority of gamers will thank GG for standing against evil tide of...niche indie games they don't care about. Its been a couple minutes so maybe that goal has changed.

I often wonder, how many fewer issues GG might have if they could just, think for themselves. Much as I've enjoyed bouncing ideas off of brick walls, its very clear GG has a very important agenda to get to...soon as they figure out what that is. Well, off you go to more GG self-aggrandizing.

 

[doomrider7]

I'll just go ahead and add my 2 cents. Milo is a shit writer and a hack who writes for a publication that is VERY clearly right wing biased and has lied and distorted information for it's own ends that you can all read on the following link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breitbart_(website)#Controversies

It's hardly coincidence that he never got involved or cared for gaming(in fact opened his first piece on this whole as follows, "It's easy to mock video gamers as dorky loners in yellowing underpants" and how that was his image as well), but it immediately became his calling when he saw potential to push what and anti-feminist agenda and shill out right wing material. It's also just vulgar how he's hailed as some kind of paragon of journalism when his articles are sensationalistic crap and all of his citations just link to other articles on the site which shows FLAGRANT bias(funny how the GamerGate opposition is accused of this). With that out of the way, as for the journalistic integrity angle...

It's bullshit.

This was never about journalistic integrity. If journalistic integrity REALLY mattered then GamerGate would've started back in '09 when Ubisoft tried to straight up bribe a German publication for positive reviews as detailed on the following link by Jim Sterling when he wrote for Destructoid whom I think a few of you are familiar with.

http://www.destructoid.com/ubisoft-demands-high-assassin-s-creed-2-review-score--154456.phtml

If that article wouldn't have been enough then this one from the more recent '12 detailing all of the sordid corruption should have damn well done it.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/10/26/all-the-pretty-doritos-how-video-game-journalism-went-off-the-rails/

Instead, here we are with whatever THIS fucking mess is. Let's just be honest that this was misogynistic hate being thinly veiled as a crusade for journalistic integrity. No this does not apply to everyone involved in GamerGate, but when your most vocal segment presents themselves in such a way then guess what your public image is gonna be? I believe Jim one of his recent videos mentioned a few Twitters that are actually having mature sensible discussions and my suggestion would be to join THOSE and for FUCKS SAKE, no matter how much you don't like certain people involved in this, when you have a though to voice out violence against them, breath in deep and then let it go and go play games since I'm assuming it's your hobby.

 

[doomrider7]

As soon as somebody more credible than Milo offers to cover us and make our concerns known, we'll be more than happy to push them, but until then I'm afraid we're stuck with him. The only reason he is getting more attention than Niche Gamer or Slate which also are giving us positive press is because he's more mainstream and happened to get ahold of an exclusive source with some very relevant info to us.

Personally though, if he goes on the Alex Jones show like he's been offered to by Prison Planet, that'll be the straw that makes me stop listening to what he says.
---

I'm for journalistic integrity, as are a good many of the people in the escapist as well as the game devs and game journalists and publishers who have spoken up in support of us.

Just granting you the fact that we've never spoken up before against this abuse, even though that's not true, I don't understand how that somehow dismisses the fact that we're complaining about it now.

There's no statute of limitations for abuse, where if somebody's been abusing your for 10 years that automatically makes it okay just because you waited 10 years to speak out about it.

"Oh, I'm sorry you aren't allowed to get mad about me smacking you because I don't personally remember you being so loud the last couple of times I smacked you". That is victim blaming.

I agree that there's no statue of limitations, but having people like Milo and Breibart is NOT a good way doing things given their shady as all hell shenanigans they've pulled. Part of the problem is that sexism has been a HUGE problem in the industry for and incredibly long time and has resulted in multiple cases of aggressive and violent harassment(I don't particularly like Sarkiseesian's videos, but I'm not gonna lobby violent and vulgar threats to her) and the fact that it was all triggered by the whole Zoe Quinn scandal which was treated as some kind of major breach of ethics, but the other incidents from the Forbes piece generated little buzz, it's REALLY not a good look in terms of priorities.

Edit: With regards to the censorship claims I'm pretty sure it's due to the fact that no one wanted to write a piece based on a jilted ex airing out personal dirty laundry that isn't anyone's business except the parties involved and wanted to wait until more reliable and complete information came in since libel is a thing and most of the early commentary was vile trash anyway with maybe a few minor hints of intelligent discussion here and there.

 

[Lunar Archivist]

No this does not apply to everyone involved in GamerGate, but when your most vocal segment presents themselves in such a way then guess what your public image is gonna be?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Provide solid, irrefutable evidence that "our most vocal segment" has actually done this and we will do our best to deal with it.

And if you can't prove it, then kindly stop acting as if constant repetition would somehow make it real or give the claim more legitimacy.

Also, if your have journalist or advocate in mind with impeccable credentials who could help us instead of Milo, by all means, arrange a meeting for us. Otherwise, we have to stick with the only people willing and able to give us some press.

 

[doomrider7]

No this does not apply to everyone involved in GamerGate, but when your most vocal segment presents themselves in such a way then guess what your public image is gonna be?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Provide solid, irrefutable evidence that "our most vocal segment" has actually done this and we will do our best to deal with it.

And if you can't prove it, then kindly stop acting as if constant repetition would somehow make it real or give the claim more legitimacy.

It's out there if you're willing to slog through all that vile garbage, but here's a cracked article that sort of Cliff Note's it.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-ways-gamers-still-suck-at-dealing-with-women/

There's a thread in Sherdog that's predominantly hate and vitriol and most of my acquaintances on another site I frequent associated GamerGate as followed. Mind you most of these people are not gamers and know very little of the gaming culture so GamerGate is at least ONE way they see gamers.

"So what does the Venn diagram between hardcore gamers, men's rights activists and sociopaths look like? Just discovered the absurd "Gamergate" controversy and can't help wondering."

"I dunno. The more I deal with people who play A LOT of video games, the more I realize that they're really their own kind of people and come off as pretty bizarre to others. And that lets a large segment of them be really nasty in a way that's not commonly encountered.

To be clear, I'm not at all talking about doomrider7 here. I'm talking about the RPI masters program that are full of people who are either intending to build games or those who play a shitton of games and do what they do. A couple of my friends are or were adjutants there and dated/made friends within that pool and I basically tread water with old game stuff while they amaze me with the new stuff. They're sort of the cream of the crop of their crowd and we have a hard time dealing with each other on stuff that isn't games or having a party.

But one of the things that I got from them is that for the younger ones, they really haven't had much experience dealing with people and they often come across like the worst of teenagers when they're mad/horny/sad/happy. Some of them socialize their way into being regular people, but I think a lot of them don't - the people around them don't push them to do so - and then we get insane spirals of awfulness like the GamerGate stuff.

It's worth paying attention to tangentially because that's basically the bedrock of how a huge chunk of the country operates with other topics in slightly more sophisticated ways."

"Huge overlap. Gamer Gate is basically a giant misogynistic attack. There aren't two sides. It's not worth following. Gamers are insular dweebs."

"Dude, I played Everquest for years (starcraft, warcraft, etc). And to this day I'm the best Mario Kart 64 player in the world (probably untrue, but just barely), I've never seen a group as insular as gamers. I was kind of joking and meant the ones talking about 'ethics', but only kind of. The only other group of people on twitter that attack me when I make a joke at their expense are Beatles fans. These aren't retweeted either, they actively search for keywords and defend the honor of gamers."

I didn't see any of these as an attack on my person when I read them, but more as how people on the outside looking into GamerGate see the gaming community in general and it wasn't anything even close to pretty.