Gamers DON'T Want Innovation.

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NuclearKangaroo

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Callate said:
Wow. The creator of that video is a smug jerk.

A smug, oversimplifying, and significantly incorrect jerk, at that.

Yeah, it's the sequels that always do better. That's why Sonic the Hedgehog has... Aww...
That's why Red Faction... Aww...
Why Silent Hill...

...I can go on...

He ignores a large number of points: Super Mario Bros. was bundled with most NESs sold, and the spikes seen in Madden sales coincidentally seem to roughly overlap with the introduction of new consoles. Resident Evil had it's biggest spike when it pulled away from what it had done before with RE 4, and by RE 6 that spike has started to diminish as they do what they have before, only more so. Madden sales have actually been in decline for some time (coincidentally, the author's chart cuts off in 2006.)

And then there's a little game called Minecraft that has sold more than Madden has in its last seven years combined.

So, yeah, he's wrong, and he's a jerk about it; frustratingly, there's a point to be made here, but he end-runs around it in trying to force the audience to swallow his misleading hypothesis.

Innovation is crucial to the industry. It drives the industry forward. Without innovation, we don't get those games that everyone is imitating for the next decade. And yes, gamers want innovation; they're not lying about that.

But real innovation, meaningful innovation, successful innovation- it's not something that can be forced. You can't just turn a tap and say "Forces of creativity and imagination, GO!" You can't throw money at it; you can't even throw manpower at it. Six thousand people working for your company doesn't guarantee one Shigeru Miyamoto, one Sid Meier, one Peter Molyneux.

At best, you can create an atmosphere where people have the freedom and confidence to work on passion projects and hope for the best.

But to say "Gamers don't want innovation" suggests the witless kind of false insight that thinks gaming is encapsulated by only a decade or so (that the author has been gaming). Chances are there would be no Final Fantasy without Akalabeth and Ultima, no Tomb Raider without Pitfall, no Call of Duty without Wolfenstein 3D and Doom. All notably successful games in their own times. Nintendo passed on innovation when they gave up on partnering with Sony, so instead the Playstation helped make optical media mainstream and took over the video game market. The Wii put motion controls over sheer horsepower and ended up in millions of homes, even if the follow-through on software was ultimately lacking.

Not every innovation, critically acclaimed or not, is going to be greeted with public adoration and financial awards. But without innovation, every franchise will eventually fail. Even the all-mighty Call of Duty seems to reflect this.
dont be deceived, THIS episode is complete crap, but to be honest Game Theory usually brings some interesting point to the table or atleast proposes an extremelly silly theory backed up by some decent argumentation

this episode, it was just lazy at best and cherry picking at worst, i suggest you check some other episodes, altough i wouldnt consider the channel educational as far as gaming goes if thats what you might be interested in, that title goes to extra credits
 

Smooth Operator

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I like the video, it shows how easy it is to cherry pick information for whatever argument one wants to make.

But the simple truth is top selling games are like top selling pop stars, when they are popular everyone buys them because peer pressure and when they aren't the hot new thing people will not give a shit.
And people who actually care about their purchase are extremely rare, probably not even 10% of the community gives a toss, also doesn't exclude them from the popular choices because hey peer pressure is fun...
 

josemlopes

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I didnt saw the video but I think gamers dont want innovation at the cost of established IPs (especially ones that are already quite special and unique).

For example, dont fuck around with Thief, the same game as the originals with better graphics and visuals is enough.
A new IP however, just go nuts, that shit always brings fresh features (for better and worse) that then can be used and tweaked by a sequel or different franchise.

I want Destiny, Watch Dogs, and The Division to try some cool new shit. Hitman already worked perfectly fine in Blood Money, they didnt need to re-invent the wheel in Absolution.
 

VG_Addict

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When did Game Theory become a channel for the creator to make videos where he soapboxes his poorly thought out views on the state of the industry?

He also doesn't even touch on indie games, which are considered one of the last bastions of innovation.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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Just because something is "innovative" doesn't mean it deserves being rewarded by the market. The gull-wing doors on cars like the DeLorean are "innovative", but you don't see people clamoring for them on their sedans.

Innovation should bring more to the product, instead of just changing things for the sake of doing so.
 

Xman490

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NuclearKangaroo said:
brand recognition sells, not lack of innovation
Now that brings up some variables MatPat willfully ignored. Brand recognition, which is derived from marketing and word-of-mouth, brought up sales of Call of Duty and Madden after igniting the fuse for the explosion in sales the NES got. Diminishing returns, on the other hand, now outweighs CoD's rise in brand recognition and has dampened Mario's popularity. But the diminishing returns slow down or are nullified as time passes and innovations are made; Super Mario World may have had yet another rise in sales due to 16-bit hardware and Yoshi, Super Mario Land rode the all-new wave of portable gaming, and the New Super Mario Bros series came out around 15 years after Super Mario World.
 

Bad Jim

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MarsAtlas said:
Bad Jim said:
And before anyone brings up "graphics don't matter", I reply "why not stick with your PS3/XB360 that has tons of games?"
Because all the worthwhile games released 18 months from now won't be available on a Playstation 3 or Xbox 360.
Yes but a lot of publishers are avoiding the WiiU as well. And publishers actually take many years to abandon old consoles, because they will still have many users.
 

VaporWare

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Gonna lay some heavy on some people here, and opine that what people want is to know that when they lay down sixty stone cold currency units on an entertainment product they're going to get sixty stone cold currency units worth of fun out of it.

What this means is that there is a constant struggle between reliability and innovation. If you repeat too much, your product is boring. If you innovate, you run the risk of the cool new thing you did actually turning out to be kind of crap. If it overwhelms what you did right in the first place then you've got /gimmicky/ crap. You may even find that you have gimmicky crap layered over repetitive crap from last year that would've been better off just being repetitive on its own merits.

Do gamers want innovation? Sure. But we have to accept that not every new, innovative idea is, at least in itself, fun simply because it is novel. A game where I have to feed my toenails into a sensor to procedurally generate content based on the crystalline structure of my pedal keratin may be innovative, but it is not implicitly fun and is of infinite disuse to people who, for whatever reason, lack toenails.

Contrariwise, if there's something you enjoy that doesn't change its formula too much between releases, it's a safe bet that you will feel secure in its purchase. That doesn't mean you don't want or welcome innovation, it just means you know what you like and you trust them not to screw it up too badly on the road to next new thing.

Is innovation dead?

No, not by a long shot. Innovation isn't just high profile failures or amazing revolutions in the industry. Sometimes it's just bringing back an old idea that didn't fit in it's own time. Often, it's the little touches that make something old new again, or bring it to the attention of people who never saw it before.

Are gamers killing innovation?

No. They're curating it.
 

Something Amyss

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Bad Jim said:
And publishers actually take many years to abandon old consoles, because they will still have many users.
Rate of abandon is not fixed and support will continue even after most support is gone. It doesn't guarantee viability of the last gen system as a current gaming device.

360/PS3 support may stay strong because there are issues with one of those consoles and the Wii U, but that's not a given. And you can hardly blame people for wanting to actually play current games.

Though this is coming from someone without a current gen console or a real interest in one. And while I game on my PC, I'm hardly rushing out for new games. Honestly, though, at some point I will reach a point where the only place the games are is the next gen consoles or PC. At that point, I will need to buy a console/upgrade my PC to comply. And that has nothing to do with graphics.
 
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Eh I disagree with him a lot in this video especially the later points he makes when he starts to talk about cross gen sales of games but not taking into account install base. The amount of gamecubes is a hell of a lot different to the install base of the other games while CoD had a fairly stable install base. He also ignores the CoD and Bf games that did sell less.
 

Shpongled

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The fundamental flaw in his reasoning is that he's using sales figures to determine what gamers want. Problem with this is that sales figures don't tell us what gamers want, they tell us what gamers can afford. Everyone wants innovation, we just can't always afford it.
 

Anthony Corrigan

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RJ 17 said:
Or at least that's the notion put forth in the most recent episode of Game Theory:


Yeah, yeah, I know...a lot of people hate his voice/delivery, but what about the points that he brings up? Is he just playing with numbers to support his notion? Or is he onto something here that we're all just a fickle bunch of players (as a collective community) who claim we want new and innovative ideas but when it comes to sales we all really just want to stick with what's been done before and tweaked just a bit?
As someone else said innovation needs a purpose, there has to be a PROBLEM being solved, sick and tired of game devs saying but everyone uses the left analog stick to move and the right for camera, we have to innovate and be different. No what you need to do is give me an engaging story that I want to play, not screw with the game controls. I want something which makes me want to play it, not something which takes forever to learn because its "innovative" and certainly not something which makes the game WORSE for the sake of being different

I think I should put this video on my favorites list because I keep having to pull it out everytime someone says I should buy tripe just because someone made it purple with pink spots

 

FootloosePhoenix

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I really like Game Theory, especially the episodes on Final Fantasy, but it is a shame how obnoxious MatPat comes across. At least I only tend to notice it in the openings of his videos; when he gets into the meat of things, it's usually interesting enough that everything else takes a backseat.

This video though...bleh. I have a problem with equating sales figures to "what gamers want." I've never bought a Call of Duty game or even played one because those types of first-person shooters don't appeal to me. The entire argument can be refuted with the simple fact that "gamers" are actually just a bunch of individual human beings with diverse interests and opinions. Innovation is also incredibly hard to quantify and sometimes, I fear, is taken too much to mean good. Tearaway is very innovative, but the demo didn't even hold my interest all the way through. I'm not going to support a game I don't enjoy just because it's "innovative."

But I won't begrudge the show for this, because it's just a theory; a gaaaaaaame theo--
*shot*
 

DrOswald

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RJ 17 said:
Or at least that's the notion put forth in the most recent episode of Game Theory:


Yeah, yeah, I know...a lot of people hate his voice/delivery, but what about the points that he brings up? Is he just playing with numbers to support his notion? Or is he onto something here that we're all just a fickle bunch of players (as a collective community) who claim we want new and innovative ideas but when it comes to sales we all really just want to stick with what's been done before and tweaked just a bit?
Two things need to be understood before we can actually discuss why this man is wrong. First, what innovation actually is. Second, the difference between a core gamer and a casual gamer (in the only useful way it has ever been expressed to me.) The ideas are closely connected.

"Innovation" in a vacuum rarely works out. When what you are trying to do is completely reinvent something you will almost always end up with a steaming pile of shit. Virtually every good game takes an established idea and does something with that idea. They might modify, add, take away from or outright reject parts of that idea, but you have to start with something. If you don't you end up either doing something that someone else has done before or doing something that is just bad. Good musicians don't throw out all of music theory because they want to sound different.

Quick aside: Every once in a while a developer, usually an indie, will stumble onto a truly new and unique concept that does work. But these things are always very basic execution on a very basic idea. That can work. But refined complex ideas do not spring from nothing. SMB3 could not have been made without the experience of SMB.

Anyway, games that are both good and innovative are usually new twists on an old idea. FTL, for example, takes the basic theory of a Procedural Death Labyrinth* and completely transforms the mechanics through which those ideas are applied. Something new, unique, and excellent is formed. That is innovation. This is what core gamers actually want. We don't want sparkly shallow novelty, we want solid and deep experiences that bring new ideas to the table. We don't want random leaps into the unknown and untested, we want measured and consistent progress. We are connoisseurs of the art. Core gamers want innovation. We want something interesting we can truly sink our teeth into.

Casual gamers are different. Casual gamers tend to the extremes: More of the same and novelty. They are not connoisseurs and there is nothing wrong with that. These people are why COD, Madden, and the Wii sell so much. They want their reliable consistent experience with minor quality of life improvements and they want new shiny toys to play with. They want their one deep reliable to fall back on and novelty to wow and surprise them. It doesn't matter of the novelty is shallow, they wont stick with it that long anyway.

Quick aside 2: There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a casual gamer. They are a good thing. Just because they do not share our same enthusiasm does not mean they are not a positive force in the industry. I am a strong proponent of the idea that the game industry would be significantly worse off without the large casual market. But I am not going to go into that here. Just know we are all casuals to some degree. My personal dip into casual is my undying love of Mario.

This man is throwing out statistics without actually understanding what they mean. His assumption that 2D Mario of all things is a core gamer franchise is laughable. If ever there was a casual franchise it is 2D Mario. And I say that as a huge lover of Mario. It is the epitome of old reliable. On the other side, Mario Party is practically novelty given form and compressed into a plastic disc. These things appeal to the casual gamer. And the thing about the casual gamer is that there are a hell of a lot more of them than us, and their numbers are rising.

Basically, this man has completely ignored the effect of the casual gamer. The casual market has a lot more buying power than the core market, but the core market makes far more noise. It is exactly like calling the "high art" music connoisseurs hypocrites because people keep on buying lady gaga's new hit single. We are all gamers, but there is a big difference between the casual and the core gamer in our motivations.

And now we bring this all back to the Wii U's poor sales.

The Wii was not innovative. We thought it was going to be and it was sold to us on that idea but it turned out to be novelty pretending to be innovation. I truly believe that Nintendo thought motion controls were innovative, but they were wrong. The Wii sold like crazy because it was novelty in a box and it happened to catch the public eye at just the right time. The core all got it because Nintendo were the masters of the art. They had gamer cred. We trusted them.

8 years later the Wii U is selling crappy because the novelty has worn off and the casual has left. Without that massive causal market all that is left is the core gamer. But Nintendo's reputation has been destroyed. They are now known as the game company that sells only novelty and the old reliable. And we don't want that. We want innovation. So very few people purchased the Wii U. Nintendo is doing their best to repair that reputation, but I really don't know if it will be enough.

Basically, this guy is exactly wrong. He could not have gotten it more wrong if he had done it on purpose.

*Procedural Death Labyrinth - The term rougelike is not descriptive of the genre so many are trying to change the name in the mind of the general gamer public. The new purposed name is "Procedural Death Labyrinth" for being descriptive and awesome.
 

Vault101

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They do want innovation

You just have to make then Eat it....like their vegetables
 

asdfen

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what we need to distinguish here that there are different types of gamers.
lets realize that there are a lot more casual gamers.
People who play seldom buy a random game in the store that just had flashy packaging or a came with a console. These gamers play CoD and for them it is innovative because before CoD the last FPS they played was Doom. These are the people who buy so many copies of all the AAA titles as it was advertised just for them.

Then there are gamers like me who played every game except for very niche or handheld on most of popular systems for the last 20 years. Who know all about small projects. We are the people who will also buy AAA titles and then say they are trash we've seen last year (because it is)

The hardcore gamers want and demand innovation but our numbers are few and not able to influence the market. So most of the games will still be same old stuff with prettier explosions as suits demand and its understandable. Exact same thing is in most of the segments of entertainment industry. Just look at the movies. Most of them are rehash of exactly same old love story that appeals to moms, kids and fathers will be dragged in to see them under the threat of bodily harm. All of the interesting projects are small budget independent films. Same is happening in games as more and more resources are being thrown to develop them.
 

Dragonbums

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War Penguin said:
It might be something new, sure, and it might be something worth trying out. But we've hardly seen anything worth while for a controller like that. Hell, Nintendo themselves haven't done anything innovative with that thing. If they had had a few good games demonstrating it's use for something cool and interesting,
The thing is though is that they have been doing that. They've been doing that for a long time now. The gamepad is a second screen, and if devs really are scratching their heads over what they can do with what is essentially a console version of the Nintendo DS family line then there is a very big problem with the creative juices of the gaming industry.

Zombie U utilized the full potential of the Wii U. People cried their tits off because they lost visibility when looking through bags (which was the whole point and made you think twice about wasting your time pilfering every corpse on sight.)

W101 utitilized it. Of course we all know how that game was either dismissed, or the people who knew about it called it a "pikmin clone" for the most part and ignored it.


I have seen various indie devs with Wii U stretch goals come up with amazingly cool ideas for the gamepad. Armikrog is one of them. What happened to the videogame industry where Sony can tell like two things about the touch pad on their controller and devs have a bazillion ideas for it, and Nintendo has to spoonfeed to stupid levels what the gamepad can do otherwise devs will sit there and scratch their heads wondering what the heck it can do?
 

Roxas1359

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Dragonbums said:
War Penguin said:
It might be something new, sure, and it might be something worth trying out. But we've hardly seen anything worth while for a controller like that. Hell, Nintendo themselves haven't done anything innovative with that thing. If they had had a few good games demonstrating it's use for something cool and interesting,
The thing is though is that they have been doing that. They've been doing that for a long time now. The gamepad is a second screen, and if devs really are scratching their heads over what they can do with what is essentially a console version of the Nintendo DS family line then there is a very big problem with the creative juices of the gaming industry.

Zombie U utilized the full potential of the Wii U. People cried their tits off because they lost visibility when looking through bags (which was the whole point and made you think twice about wasting your time pilfering every corpse on sight.)

W101 utitilized it. Of course we all know how that game was either dismissed, or the people who knew about it called it a "pikmin clone" for the most part and ignored it.


I have seen various indie devs with Wii U stretch goals come up with amazingly cool ideas for the gamepad. Armikrog is one of them. What happened to the videogame industry where Sony can tell like two things about the touch pad on their controller and devs have a bazillion ideas for it, and Nintendo has to spoonfeed to stupid levels what the gamepad can do otherwise devs will sit there and scratch their heads wondering what the heck it can do?
I do hope you'll take that criticism of the lack of using the GamePad to Retro Studios then, because Tropical Freeze doesn't even use the GamePad at all. When playing on the TV, the entire GamePad goes completely dark. They only thing the GamePad can be useful for in that game is for off screen play, which is hardly new nor innovative seeing as the PSP had remote play on the PS3 for years now. The offscreen play works, so I'll give them that, but beyond tech demos there hasn't been much innovation in the GamePad from 3rd parties and first parties. Also, Sony's had to spoon feed before, and then it hasn't worked. Why do you think Remote Play on the PS3 was so underused for both the PSP and the Vita. It's why Sony's forcing the devs to use the Vita's remote play when making PS4 games. Another thing never used despite being there, the Six-Axis controller which is still built into all Dualshock 3 controllers.

People will say they have "innovative ideas" for something, but unless it's actually done then it's just hogwash and the device goes into gimmick territory. Hell, only 1 Vita game I've seen uses the back touch screen in the games and that's Tearaway. Other than that it's ignore all the time, except when turing it into an L2, R2, L3, and R3 button (hate that, wish the thing had actual buttons instead of an inaccurate pad).

OT: Have to say this isn't one of Matt Patt's best GT episodes. Really what Zachary said summed up my opinions rather nicely.