Gamers make bad feminists
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You know its very immature to correct a person's spelling and grammar to make your point appear more valid.iRevanchist said:
Also Punched* (I never claimed to be mature.)
I haven't seen it but I believe there is a pretty brutal rape scene in The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo (Film and Book).
Mr and Mrs Smith has Angelina Jolie dressed as a sexy assassin then later on in the film Brad Pitt punches her several times then kicks her in the stomach... Thank god he didn't beat her up while she was dressed in latex or there would have been rioting on the streets.
An art flick called 'The Serbian Film' features a woman giving birth, having her head cut off and then the new born baby raped - I can't comment on how graphic it is because I also haven't seen that. But that is controversial for similar reasons; Is it art or just gratuitous on-screen violence. Difference is that is so extreme it's sickening. This just adds some mild sex appeal to an otherwise mundane fight scene.
It's in the same game as "Press X to kill dudes". One step at a time, please.Mortai Gravesend said:
It trivializes the problem of "there's someone there who wants to hurt me" with an unnecessarily easy solution ("KILL HIM IN THE FACE"). I never saw the game as an empowerment thing anyways, I always was viewing it as "Horrible Situation Survival Sim", with attempted rape not being one of the simulated survival bits (it's there for the same reason it's on TV - it adds sympathy towards the victim and allows her to act in a way that no one will question, I'd only consider your point valid if you have to manipulate the controls beyond "press one button to keep watching").Mortai Gravesend said:
If you're taking a video game as a method of effectively conveying actual methods of survival, then you're probably overestimating the medium a bit at the moment. I don't see how you can draw connections between "press X to get a job" or "press X to not starve" in a piece of entertainment that runs on the idea of the protagonist NOT getting raped and killed. As is, most game economics DO function on "press X to get job" (see the Sims) or "press X to not starve" (see Fallout: New Vegas on hardcore mode). I don't expect much more than that, based on the context and aspirations of the game.
If you want to see someone recovering mentally after a terrible event, try playing "The Path" or "Trauma", games which are to Tomb Raider as eggs are to asparagus (they both are food, but that's where similarities end).
It's only a word. Like any number of swear words. I mean, we still use words like "dick" or "jerk" or "jackass" to describe peopl, and these could be considered offensive to men. Most of the time, when people are using swear words, it's just an expletive, generally used without reference to the historical context or the origins of the word.zLilani said:
Any context is fine for swearing.
This is what I get for not tracking my own arguments. Please punch me in the face.Mortai Gravesend said:
The important part isn't the medium in which the scene takes place, but the framing of the scene within its' own narrative. Movies have reached the point (just like books and teather) where you can expect a rape-scene, or other scene of similar emotional gravitas, to be handled in a fair manner. That's why the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, Irreversible, Strawdog and many others can portray horrific violence against women and "get away" with it, because those movies set it up carefully and handle it with the respect it deserves.LordFish said:
Likewise, we've come to understand that those mediums can fairly portray violence between equal adversaries. That's why Angelina Jolie, Michelle Rodriguez, Mila Jovovich and several other women can make a living out of playing Action Girls, even if Leeloo was dressed like a 80's german stripper for all of the fifth element.
Besides, there isn't much moral outrage when Cervantez impales and executes Ivy in Soulcalibur. Neither when Xiaoyu gets brutalized by Kazuya in Tekken or any other similar beat'em up match. The moral outrage against the Absolution trailer is due to the percieved juvenile tone of the entire thing, with over-sexualized women holding big guns while playing on the contrast to the chastity of nuns.
The fact that characters like Ivy still exist in most beat'em ups is a far better example of this juvenile approach then the Absolution trailer though. So I can agree that the rage might be a tad misplaced.
Why does this sort of topic automatically turn normal, sensible people into complete arseholes? I'm not even sure which side of this discussion I want to slap more.
I thought of so many points and rebuttals and counter-arguments while scrolling through these pages, but I'm exhausted now, and I have work soon, so I'm just going to leave it. It honestly doesn't seem worth it. I'm throwing in my towel on the feminism debate, and just resolving to generally not be an ass to anyone, and stand up to those who are being an ass to others.
I thought of so many points and rebuttals and counter-arguments while scrolling through these pages, but I'm exhausted now, and I have work soon, so I'm just going to leave it. It honestly doesn't seem worth it. I'm throwing in my towel on the feminism debate, and just resolving to generally not be an ass to anyone, and stand up to those who are being an ass to others.
Realistic? Buffy's a superhero with no other "skills."Fumbles said:
River is a psychic killing machine whose only other trait is neurotic breaks.
Gwen spends most of her time as an idiot whose only function appears to be the "human element."
Yeah, okay, I can see that last one.
As for "existing without men," well....
Gwen needs Jack Harkness. You already said it. Even after she's "grown," she falls apart without him. The only exception is really offscreen time, and then suddenly Jack's back and she's a basketcase again. She's strong unless the plot demands otherwise, which is both bad writing AND the case almost 100% of the time.
Buffy has several arcs in which she cannot get by without a male figure, usually Giles or Angel. In fact, there are a couple of major arcs where Giles wants to leave, but Buffy can't function without him, so... And just when he does leave, he comes back. Not tomention, things kind of fall apart without him around, so it's up to Daddy to make things better.
River...You know, we don't really see much of River independent of her brother. Maybe she'd have a chance to grow with time, but this is a pretty awful example as-is.
I guess my points here would be:
-Realistic probably shouldn't have a place in terms of what makes a 'good' female character, since we're talking about unrealistic shows in the first place.
-Most of these characters are NOT as independent as you would argue them.
-If that's the state of entertainment, if these are the best examples, there's a problem.
-Joss Wheedon may be a feminist, but that doesn't really mean much here. In fact, if I could continue, he went so far to say in at least one interview that a strong female character is more or less incapable of being feminine by necessity. That sort of outlook and false dichotomy don't speak well of his capacity to undertake writing strong women.
-Russel T Davies is a hack. But that doesn't really have much to do with gender roles in media.
Since "context" is an issue here, go up to any random person on the streets in the US and say "fuck."Loonyyy said:
Then go up to another and say "****."
See which gets a worse reaction.
Now, repeat a hundred times or so to minimise sample bias.
Odds are, you will notice that one draws a more vehement reaction than the other.
To be fair, there are those that do. To portray them as the rule for feminism, though, is just outright false. Then again, since most complaints about feminism appear to stem from the fear of women "gettin' uppity," I stopped being surprised at that a long time ago.Phasmal said:
I actually liked the new hitman trailer it was bloody hilarous to see it a nun ninja who hid an RPG in her clothes or something I just find that people should take it less serious I mean ninja nuns should not be taken serious it's just a game and I see nothing wrong with the trailer at all it's not really sexist at all and anybody who does find it sexist are idiots to me they are people wearing sexy clothing and getting beat up by a guy it's not like hitman hasn't done this before and this comment will be so hated
Why is this so shocking? Gamers make good gamers, and good game developers, but poor at everything else. That's how it goes for most things. It's like asking a sportsman to comment on something political, it's not going to be very good. lol
Personally (lol) I think that it seems like the whole "feminist" thing has garnered a bad name everywhere, not just in gaming. Instead of looking like people that want equal rights for women, they just look like people that "hate men" or want more privileges and rights than everyone else. That's just how it seems.
Personally (lol) I think that it seems like the whole "feminist" thing has garnered a bad name everywhere, not just in gaming. Instead of looking like people that want equal rights for women, they just look like people that "hate men" or want more privileges and rights than everyone else. That's just how it seems.
Obviously. Swearing gets a reaction. I'm not denying that, you seem to be deliberately misunderstanding me, and then attempting to sound scientific. Protip: 100 people you find on the street aren't a sample, and you need a scale for measuring reaction (No idea what scale, I'm an engineer, not a sociologist or psychologist).Zachary Amaranth said:
My point is, that there's no context where swearing is not appropriate, so long as you're willing to deal with the response that swearing gets. People will judge you for your mannerisms etc. I just find it a little odd when people are entirely willing to demonise (By which I mean the overboard reaction to some I've seen (Not implying your reaction at all<Sincere) where they decide: Someone swears, they're uncouth, or whatever, hence their argument is invalid) someone for using a word they find objectionable.
(Also, side note, as an Australian, "Fuck" will get the worse reaction, it's become a habit amongst trash to refer to each other as "****"-mostly I assume for shock value)
I don't see the feminist critique of gaming as being more particularly immature or ill-focused than any other media critique.
And while someone who criticizes sexism can certainly still be sexist in other instances. This doesn't make the criticism of sexism itself any less valid. Also, while criticism of boobs isn't exactly feminism. Breasts are heavily over-sexualized in media. It isn't puritanical to see an oversexualization of women in media.
Video games have exposed feet all the time. But they're not typically sexualizing them. They are, however, typically sexualizing breasts. I wouldn't mind it if breasts were treated a bit more like feet. You can enjoy breasts without them being treated as they currently commonly are in video games.
And while someone who criticizes sexism can certainly still be sexist in other instances. This doesn't make the criticism of sexism itself any less valid. Also, while criticism of boobs isn't exactly feminism. Breasts are heavily over-sexualized in media. It isn't puritanical to see an oversexualization of women in media.
Video games have exposed feet all the time. But they're not typically sexualizing them. They are, however, typically sexualizing breasts. I wouldn't mind it if breasts were treated a bit more like feet. You can enjoy breasts without them being treated as they currently commonly are in video games.
Catholics, Republicans, Democrats pretty much any politically active group have an official platform. Even if an individual member disagrees with parts of it (Democrats that are pro second amendment or a Republicans that is pro-choice) they recognizes that they have a difference with their group. The only common theme among feminist is women empowerment, and no one has a clear path to that goal.Phasmal said:
I don't claim to speak for any group so all generalizations i make are my own opinion