Games and storys....are we doing it wrong?
- Thread starter Vault101
- Start date
well to me, assasins creed (at least 1 and 2) are everything a game should be, look great, play great and..well I actually think the storys are pretty good (I mean the whole "animus thing" and such)Zhukov said:
aslo
jus tout of curiosity I wouldnt mind a list or somthing of games you consider to have bad storysBreakfastMan said:
Okay, here you go:Vault101 said:
Gears 1-3
Red Faction: Guerrilla
FEAR1-2 (can't comment on others)
Fable 1-2 (haven't completed 3 yet, so can't comment on that one)
Prey
Halo 2, 3, Reach
Star Wars: TFU
Overlord
Too Human
Ninja Blade
Tales of Vesperia+Symphonia
Jak 1, 3
Onimusha
Star Ocean: Till the End of Time
Dark Cloud
Clock Tower 3
Siren, from what I have played
Hitman: Blood Money
Devil May Cry
GRAW
Splinter Cell 1-3 (can't comment on others)
Chrono Cross
STALKER
Dead Space 2
Just Cause 2
Star Wars: Republic Commando
Realms of the Haunting
P.N.03
Resident Evil 4
Metroid Prime
Metal Gear Solid 4 (weakest of all the MGS games)
Red Faction: Guerrilla
FEAR1-2 (can't comment on others)
Fable 1-2 (haven't completed 3 yet, so can't comment on that one)
Prey
Halo 2, 3, Reach
Star Wars: TFU
Overlord
Too Human
Ninja Blade
Tales of Vesperia+Symphonia
Jak 1, 3
Onimusha
Star Ocean: Till the End of Time
Dark Cloud
Clock Tower 3
Siren, from what I have played
Hitman: Blood Money
Devil May Cry
GRAW
Splinter Cell 1-3 (can't comment on others)
Chrono Cross
STALKER
Dead Space 2
Just Cause 2
Star Wars: Republic Commando
Realms of the Haunting
P.N.03
Resident Evil 4
Metroid Prime
Metal Gear Solid 4 (weakest of all the MGS games)
Video game stories are terrible compared to other media. And I completely agree if an artist has a story to tell, video game is not a good medium.
The funny thing is that some years ago stories were not important to games, and were almost added as an afterthought. Adventure games and RPGs were the exception. We have come to expect that games must have stories, we also accept that the quality is low. Even worse in my opinion is that we accept that stories work as crutches for gameplay, because of the story we accept gameplay at a lower quality than we otherwise would have. How fun would Bioshock have been without a story? Well 15 years ago it would have needed to be fun, because there would be no story.
I like a decent story in a game, and in certain genres I expect it. But unfortunately there is now so much focus on story that other aspects go undeveloped.
The first Portal is a great example of a game that would work fine without any story, just a series of test chambers would do. Or how about Terraria or Minecraft, they have no story at all.
The funny thing is that some years ago stories were not important to games, and were almost added as an afterthought. Adventure games and RPGs were the exception. We have come to expect that games must have stories, we also accept that the quality is low. Even worse in my opinion is that we accept that stories work as crutches for gameplay, because of the story we accept gameplay at a lower quality than we otherwise would have. How fun would Bioshock have been without a story? Well 15 years ago it would have needed to be fun, because there would be no story.
I like a decent story in a game, and in certain genres I expect it. But unfortunately there is now so much focus on story that other aspects go undeveloped.
The first Portal is a great example of a game that would work fine without any story, just a series of test chambers would do. Or how about Terraria or Minecraft, they have no story at all.
If you want to know my problems with dead space 2, you can find them, spoiler free, here [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.339192-Breakfastmans-Gamegaddon-Dead-Space-2] in this review I wrote of the game recently. /shamelessplugVault101 said:
Basically: Had potential and a number of good ideas, wasted them all.
There are some games with brilliant stories that are open to interpretation, and done in a way that allows the player to discover the meaning on their own... The one that comes to mind is Braid...
The problem then with games is that you cannot have 'just story'... that would just suck... Imagine playing 'An Inspector Calls' the game... [footnote]It's a play which takes place entirely in a living room, with dialogue... nothing else happens, its just talking, but it is still a brilliant story about how every member of this particular family is linked to the psychological well-being of a girl who had committed suicide... the inspector himself is open to interpretation, and can be taken in many ways. Some interpret him to be a figment of the viewers imagination, and is only there to instil the conversation and make the family members realise their errors, where as other people take him as literally just an inspector, but one who really knew the families doings inside out... very clever story.[/footnote] The game would suck... you would only just keep pressing A/X over and over until game over... great! Braid itself had very clever fragments of story woven into it, and much of the game was metaphorical to the plot... but the game play itself, although brilliant, was very much irrelevant from a story perspective... What you get with games are fragments of story, broken up with action sequences in between, but this is good, as when you are in control, you don't particularly want to try and focus on an unfolding story as well.
Take a game like Ace Combat, which often puts story in dialogue that play through the in game radios... you can hear TV reports, and ground forces, and even sometimes the enemy... it portrays characters feelings of events that you are watching from 10,000-30,000 feet, and would have therefore been to far from the action to care. The only problem with this is that myself, and I imagine a lot of other players miss lots of this dialogue when they play, because they are to busy being occupied by dogfighting, trying not to crash, and racking up points, to notice the news report of the president escaping in a helicopter...!
Other games which focus on game play and story like Stranglehold, Metal Gear Solid or The Getaway do it brilliantly, but when you look at it, the bits you play are essentially just transporting you to the next bit of story, and you playing has little to no effect on the story what so ever... You know Hammond in the Getaway will get to his son just in time, no matter how many times he stops to have shoot-outs with the police, causing mass genocide, or acting like a spastic and getting repeatedly run over, on the way.
I can see what Jaffe is implying, but I think he went about it in too much of a broad-brush sweeping way. I think what he was implying is that the types of heavy hitting stories, that you find in other types of media, are not suited to the gaming world, and that other developers should stop kidding themselves that they are actually creating something more than they are.
Personally I disagree with this. I think that we are just yet to see real stories told in games, where the players can discover it themselves, and where the pace is set just enough that the story is more involved with the game play itself... Until then I look forward to more simple, yet effective story telling through cinematic events, set pieces and cut scenes.
EDIT: On another note, does every game need a good story...? I see they try and inject stories in the strangest of places now... Like the new Tiger Woods where you start as a kid, and learn golf with the character as s/he grows up... Do you actually need that, or should games like that just stick to what they are good at...? The action?
The problem then with games is that you cannot have 'just story'... that would just suck... Imagine playing 'An Inspector Calls' the game... [footnote]It's a play which takes place entirely in a living room, with dialogue... nothing else happens, its just talking, but it is still a brilliant story about how every member of this particular family is linked to the psychological well-being of a girl who had committed suicide... the inspector himself is open to interpretation, and can be taken in many ways. Some interpret him to be a figment of the viewers imagination, and is only there to instil the conversation and make the family members realise their errors, where as other people take him as literally just an inspector, but one who really knew the families doings inside out... very clever story.[/footnote] The game would suck... you would only just keep pressing A/X over and over until game over... great! Braid itself had very clever fragments of story woven into it, and much of the game was metaphorical to the plot... but the game play itself, although brilliant, was very much irrelevant from a story perspective... What you get with games are fragments of story, broken up with action sequences in between, but this is good, as when you are in control, you don't particularly want to try and focus on an unfolding story as well.
Take a game like Ace Combat, which often puts story in dialogue that play through the in game radios... you can hear TV reports, and ground forces, and even sometimes the enemy... it portrays characters feelings of events that you are watching from 10,000-30,000 feet, and would have therefore been to far from the action to care. The only problem with this is that myself, and I imagine a lot of other players miss lots of this dialogue when they play, because they are to busy being occupied by dogfighting, trying not to crash, and racking up points, to notice the news report of the president escaping in a helicopter...!
Other games which focus on game play and story like Stranglehold, Metal Gear Solid or The Getaway do it brilliantly, but when you look at it, the bits you play are essentially just transporting you to the next bit of story, and you playing has little to no effect on the story what so ever... You know Hammond in the Getaway will get to his son just in time, no matter how many times he stops to have shoot-outs with the police, causing mass genocide, or acting like a spastic and getting repeatedly run over, on the way.
I can see what Jaffe is implying, but I think he went about it in too much of a broad-brush sweeping way. I think what he was implying is that the types of heavy hitting stories, that you find in other types of media, are not suited to the gaming world, and that other developers should stop kidding themselves that they are actually creating something more than they are.
Personally I disagree with this. I think that we are just yet to see real stories told in games, where the players can discover it themselves, and where the pace is set just enough that the story is more involved with the game play itself... Until then I look forward to more simple, yet effective story telling through cinematic events, set pieces and cut scenes.
EDIT: On another note, does every game need a good story...? I see they try and inject stories in the strangest of places now... Like the new Tiger Woods where you start as a kid, and learn golf with the character as s/he grows up... Do you actually need that, or should games like that just stick to what they are good at...? The action?
Actually, it has pretty much already been done. It is called "Facade", it is freeware, and it is damn brilliant to boot.Elemantary - Dear Watson said:
EDIT: "An Inspector Calls" the game, that is...
Well, in 99% of the cases he's right.
In non-independent games the story plays almost always secondary role (or worse). I can't think of any game that was made for its story (although there might be a few).On the other hand independent games with a small team and budget put massive constrains to the story. Now these problems are not exclusive to the game industry, but they are bigger than in any other artistic field.
That's not to say that games are an inherently worse medium than others to tell a story, but at least for the time being 99% of storywriters should look at other mediums to tell their story.
In non-independent games the story plays almost always secondary role (or worse). I can't think of any game that was made for its story (although there might be a few).On the other hand independent games with a small team and budget put massive constrains to the story. Now these problems are not exclusive to the game industry, but they are bigger than in any other artistic field.
That's not to say that games are an inherently worse medium than others to tell a story, but at least for the time being 99% of storywriters should look at other mediums to tell their story.
Try The Witcher 2, they do some cool stuff with choices. You wont know exactly their outcome but they arent random, they are like real choices where you actually never really know if it was the best choice.Mortai Gravesend said:
Well, a lot of the problem is that video games by nature are a lot more action focussed than their other counterparts. Even an excuse-plot set-piece onslaught film like, say 'Crank' (about as close to a video game as films get), still has moments where there's a lull in the action that doesn't really translate into a video game, save for the usual cut scenes.
And due to the nature of the medium, not many games' plot ultimately tends to go much further than 'go to point x, kill anything in your way, rinse & repeat until done'
And due to the nature of the medium, not many games' plot ultimately tends to go much further than 'go to point x, kill anything in your way, rinse & repeat until done'
Basically this. All of it.Zhukov said:
For instance, the best of Mass Effect has nothing on the best of Star Trek (especially TNG). Mass Effect is just another power fantasy that happens to be set in space. It basically goes "you are awesome, go kick some alien ass cuz you're the only one who can...that's how awesome you are!".
OP mentioned Portal. Although a very good example of fusing narrative and gameplay, Portal still feels very isolated/ reductionist. Maybe it derives most of its strength from being such a limited and controlled environment and experience.
Chell doesn't speak; who knows what goes on in her mind (opportunity for the player to project and attribute things that simply aren't there). There are no NPC's to interact with. The testing labs are the whole world for Chell.
I think that what developers can learn from Portal is that it's all about focussing and directing the attention of the player. The player's gaze is what enables everything. A player can totally miss things like graffiti and whatnot, simply by not looking. But if you have arrows painted in blood (or red paint) on white walls...it's difficult to miss. Developers should study the human perception and psychology. How does the human mind process certain visual cues? What colors and shapes attract the attention and so on.
It's also very refreshing to progress without having to kill anything. That's another lesson. If killing is the only or predominant way of dealing with conflict/ obstacles...the developer is likely to shit out another generic shooter or hack-and-slash. Didn't older games have the option to talk/ charm your way out of almost any situation?
Another refreshing thing is that in Portal you don't have to save the world. You're just trying to survive and escape.
I wonder what kind of games would be made if for the space of one year, all developers would be magically PROHIBITED from making games in which the player has to save other stuff (the princess, the country, the world, the universe) by predominantly killing/ destroying obstacles. Now that would be an interesting challenge. Sadly, it's also never gonna happen.
I think video game stories could be better if they didn't just emulate books or movies in how they tell they're stories. It doesn't necessarily have to be interactive (as in dialog choices). The Half-Life and Metroid Prime series do this fairly well. A lot of information is derived from exploring and looking at the envirnoment.
There's also the fact that narratives usually take back-seat to actual gameplay. Of course, that's probably how it should be since they are games. However, that doesn't mean developers should give up on trying to make the gameplay and story a more cohesive experience. As, in telling the story through gameplay. I can only think of one game that melds game and narrative perfectly: the DS adventure game Nine Hours, Nine Persons, Nine Doors. 999 takes a story and tells it in such away that MASSIVELY improves it and is impossible to achieve in any other medium. The gameplay and story perfectly compliment each other; neither taking away from the other. It does take awhile for it to become apparent though; it looks like a choose your own adventure with "escape the room" puzzles, but is much, much more than that.
There's also the fact that narratives usually take back-seat to actual gameplay. Of course, that's probably how it should be since they are games. However, that doesn't mean developers should give up on trying to make the gameplay and story a more cohesive experience. As, in telling the story through gameplay. I can only think of one game that melds game and narrative perfectly: the DS adventure game Nine Hours, Nine Persons, Nine Doors. 999 takes a story and tells it in such away that MASSIVELY improves it and is impossible to achieve in any other medium. The gameplay and story perfectly compliment each other; neither taking away from the other. It does take awhile for it to become apparent though; it looks like a choose your own adventure with "escape the room" puzzles, but is much, much more than that.
The guy compares the gaming industry to McDonalds (in the venue of his analogy there). I'm fairly certain that's bullshit in of itself. Because NOT EVERYONE can walk into a frigging game-related ANYTHING and serve it up with the proverbial fries. Not even Indie games are so easy that anybody can do it. Not even FLASH GAMES...on NEWGROUNDS...THAT ARE GOOD...fall under that category, since that requires some decent computer and animation knowledge which many people DO NOT HAVE. That analogy is completely full of it.
I could start espousing the gospel of gaming and it's importance as a narrative medium, albeit still struggling to find its footing being such a young medium to film, books and all of that, or I could just point you over to www.extra-credits.net