Games as Art

[TehBooger]

I've heard this phrase over and over on the site and I'm still confused... Best description I've heard yet takes character development and relationships into account, but that can't be all there is to it. What exactly is the art of gaming to you, the everyman?

 

[Irridium]

Its whatever you make of it.

And thats really all I have to say about that.

 

[AyreonMaiden]

When a game evokes a feeling other than "this gameplay is good/not good."

Ex. Killer7. That game is a "gamer's" worst nightmare. At least, the prescriptivist "GAMEPLAY ABOVE EVERYTHING" gamer. And yeah, sure, the gameplay by itself is strange, but it evoked from me horror, suspense, confusion, and awe.

 

[Halo Fanboy]

When a game evokes a feeling other than "this gameplay is good/not good."

Ex. Killer7. That game is a "gamer's" worst nightmare. At least, the prescriptivist "GAMEPLAY ABOVE EVERYTHING" gamer. And yeah, sure, the gameplay by itself is strange, but it evoked from me horror, suspense, confusion, and awe.

The "good gameplay" is what evokes the feelings that are experienced in a game. Joy, anger, sadness, pride, betrayal, sexual violation ect can all be found in any Halo match as long as the players are invested in it enough.

 

[moretimethansense]

When a game evokes a feeling other than "this gameplay is good/not good."

Ex. Killer7. That game is a "gamer's" worst nightmare. At least, the prescriptivist "GAMEPLAY ABOVE EVERYTHING" gamer. And yeah, sure, the gameplay by itself is strange, but it evoked from me horror, suspense, confusion, and awe.

The "good gameplay" is what evokes the feelings that are experienced in a game. Joy, anger, sadness, pride, betrayal, sexual violation ect can all be found in any Halo match as long as the players are invested in it enough.

OH NO let's not go down this road again!

OT; To me Games are simply an art form like painting, books or films.
The better ones evoke emotions through the narrative, artwork, soundtravk or as this arumentative git says gamplay.
The worse ones evoke nothing, yet they are still art even if not that good.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Would you all please shut the fuck up once and for all about fucking games as art.

nobody gives a shitting shit.

You know, I agree with the sentiment, but you might want to edit is so it's worded in a less offensive way to avoid the ban-hammer. I'm pretty sure you just broke all but one or two of the new forum rules with this post.

OT: I'm pretty sick of the topic too. It smacks of people being insecure about the fact that they still participate in an activity that that they did when they were children, and want the older generation to say "Yes Johnny, your hobby is valid." Frankly, it's more childish than just sticking to it regardless of what they think. For example, I'm a month off from being 21, yet I still watch cartoons. Do I care what other people think about a grown man watching cartoons? Frankly, no, unless they think it's cool and want to watch some with me. We should think about videogames the same way -- it's a hobby, it may have potential as an artistic medium, but we're lying to ourselves and everyone we tell it to when we claim that that is the primary purpose of games. The name is correct; they are games played through a video display device, and we need to quit pretending that they're something else just to make us feel better about our hobby.

Also, I know someone's going to bring up the Supreme Court case in reference to "Games as art." The level of artistic merit required by that standard is not really in question here, gamers are looking for a different definition of art, that of the existing art establishment. Frankly, we don't need their approval.

 

[CheckD3]

It's portraying the views of an individual or individuals through the art of putting you in their shoes.

To me, the best video games make you experience exactly what the protagonist, the one connected to your controller, is going through. When you feel sad your character's love interests dies, happy that you beat the monster, even angry at the beast or villain for what they did, that's what makes a game truly artistic.

It's also when something in the game touches on something in your life, or makes you look at yourself and think, wow, I never thought that. Persona 4 did this by giving us the Shadow selves, the evil, dark versions that are ourself and we don't want to admit are truely inside of us. Games like Splatterhouse, at least to me, talk to the inner demons of ourselves, and how when you get power, it unleashes your inner self when you can.

 

[AyreonMaiden]

Would you all please shut the fuck up once and for all about fucking games as art.

nobody gives a shitting shit.

You know, I agree with the sentiment, but you might want to edit is so it's worded in a less offensive way to avoid the ban-hammer. I'm pretty sure you just broke all but one or two of the new forum rules with this post.

OT: I'm pretty sick of the topic too. It smacks of people being insecure about the fact that they still participate in an activity that that they did when they were children, and want the older generation to say "Yes Johnny, your hobby is valid." Frankly, it's more childish than just sticking to it regardless of what they think. For example, I'm a month off from being 21, yet I still watch cartoons. Do I care what other people think about a grown man watching cartoons? Frankly, no, unless they think it's cool and want to watch some with me. We should think about videogames the same way -- it's a hobby, it may have potential as an artistic medium, but we're lying to ourselves and everyone we tell it to when we claim that that is the primary purpose of games. The name is correct; they are games played through a video display device, and we need to quit pretending that they're something else just to make us feel better about our hobby.

Also, I know someone's going to bring up the Supreme Court case in reference to "Games as art." The level of artistic merit required by that standard is not really in question here, gamers are looking for a different definition of art, that of the existing art establishment. Frankly, we don't need their approval.

Why does it have to reek of insecurity?

I just can't help it. The moment I began understanding why I like the things I like, I began choosing accordingly. The moment I realized I value character development, inventive storytelling techniques, absorbing atmosphere, tight plotting, memorable soundtracks, great acting and writing, and all around aesthetic uniqueness over simply "accessible for everyone gameplay," I changed completely.

Why does that have to mean that I'm "insecure?" I can live with the existence of the iPhone and "casual" games. I can live with the existence of licensed shovelware. I love Halo as much as I love Shadow of the Colossus. I love Mario as much as I love Killer7. I am as pumped for Duke Nukem Forever as I am for Catherine. I frankly don't care what anyone calls it. I just want the defensive attitudes towards gaming to disappear. Sadly, that means giving it the label of "art" because that's the only word we have for something like that.

I really think that the things I love about gaming suffer when people think it's just "child's play." It's just not a conductive environment for truly unique, adult experiences. It's getting better, but it could do much more still. I bet there are lots of people who have great ideas but are afraid of controversy in this PC, think-of-the-children world.

Take Catherine. Where I see a visually interesting game with a badass, stylish psychosexual storyline, lots of people see a borderline ecchi game for perverts. And this is why I fear for it not being translated for the US. Yeah, I think the girls in that game are excruciatingly hot, but I actually think this looks like a really cool game.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Killer7 does have good gameplay. The main complaints I have heard about it is that it too tricky and usual to learn how to play but the gameplay deliberately unusual to match the theme. I believe more in the purity of getting the gameplay right first than the gesamtkunstwerk concept of valuing gameplay as only a minor part compared to traditional media.

 

[twistedheat15]

What's sup with all these "Games as art" threads that pop up on here. I swear there's about 2 new threads a week about this, and always with the same question, and responses. I've never seen a site pop up with this as much as here.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Would you all please shut the fuck up once and for all about fucking games as art.

nobody gives a shitting shit.

You know, I agree with the sentiment, but you might want to edit is so it's worded in a less offensive way to avoid the ban-hammer. I'm pretty sure you just broke all but one or two of the new forum rules with this post.

OT: I'm pretty sick of the topic too. It smacks of people being insecure about the fact that they still participate in an activity that that they did when they were children, and want the older generation to say "Yes Johnny, your hobby is valid." Frankly, it's more childish than just sticking to it regardless of what they think. For example, I'm a month off from being 21, yet I still watch cartoons. Do I care what other people think about a grown man watching cartoons? Frankly, no, unless they think it's cool and want to watch some with me. We should think about videogames the same way -- it's a hobby, it may have potential as an artistic medium, but we're lying to ourselves and everyone we tell it to when we claim that that is the primary purpose of games. The name is correct; they are games played through a video display device, and we need to quit pretending that they're something else just to make us feel better about our hobby.

Also, I know someone's going to bring up the Supreme Court case in reference to "Games as art." The level of artistic merit required by that standard is not really in question here, gamers are looking for a different definition of art, that of the existing art establishment. Frankly, we don't need their approval.

Why does it have to reek of insecurity?

I just can't help it. The moment I began understanding why I like the things I like, I began choosing accordingly. The moment I realized I value character development, inventive storytelling techniques, absorbing atmosphere, tight plotting, memorable soundtracks, great acting and writing, and all around aesthetic uniqueness over simply "accessible for everyone gameplay," I changed completely.

Why does that have to mean that I'm "insecure?" I can live with the existence of the iPhone and "casual" games. I can live with the existence of licensed shovelware. I love Halo as much as I love Shadow of the Colossus. I love Mario as much as I love Killer7. I am as pumped for Duke Nukem Forever as I am for Catherine. I frankly don't care what anyone calls it. I just want the defensive attitudes towards gaming to disappear. Sadly, that means giving it the label of "art" because that's the only word we have for something like that.

I really think that the things I love about gaming suffer when people think it's just "child's play." It's just not a conductive environment for truly unique, adult experiences. It's getting better, but it could do much more still. I bet there are lots of people who have great ideas but are afraid of controversy in this PC, think-of-the-children world.

Take Catherine. Where I see a visually interesting game with a badass, stylish psychosexual storyline, lots of people see a borderline ecchi game for perverts. And this is why I fear for it not being translated for the US. Yeah, I think the girls in that game are excruciatingly hot, but I actually think this looks like a really cool game.

You said it yourself -- you want the "defensive attitudes" about gaming to go away, and you think that the only way to do that is for games to be recognized as art. Right there, you're seeking the approval of the cultural elite, and implying that having or not having that approval makes some sort of real-world difference. My stance on this whole thing is that we just need to wait 20 years or so, and let the generation that grew up with games end the persecution of videogames by being the ones in power.

It doesn't matter what we show them, the Michael Atkinsons, Leland Yees, and Jack Thompsons of the world are not going to change their minds on gaming, so the only way to completely get rid of them is going to be to outlive them. Their outdated opinions on games are going to die with them, as our generation already accepts games as something much more than child's play. You'll get your boundary pushing games, it's just going to take some time.

Besides, games won't deserve the title of art until we get more games that push those boundaries; right now, we have precious few games that try to be more than mindless entertainment -- or if not mindless, then the same sort of entertainment one can get from a chess board or a tabletop game. We need to quit being embarrassed that we enjoy that sort of thing, and quit trying to justify it to the older generations. Heck, let's say we do hit a point where we have so many artistic games that we don't know what to do with them. That older generation still won't accept them, so let's quit preaching the "games as art" gospel, okay? Even I accept that games are a medium with the potential for artistic greatness. I think everyone on these forums does. But the older generation does not and will not, so we're just going to have to outlive them. It shouldn't be too hard, when you consider that the problem was caused in the first place by a large age gap. Currently, this argument is doing one of two things: preaching to the choir, and annoying the people who don't agree that games are art with the incessant proselytizing that is being done. Ask any of the Atheists on this forum how well that approach works.

 

[AyreonMaiden]

snip

The simplest solution is the most overlooked. Very true

 

[Ashcrexl]

are we still on about this? i thought we had all decided a long time ago (maybe about 70 years or so) that everything is art. games are included in everything. art is an expression of human intellect or emotion. games do that. everything does that. so please stop it with the games are art topic already.

 

[Geekosaurus]

Art has no purpose. The purpose of games are to entertain and to make money. Games cannot be art.

 

[TehBooger]

Didn't feel like browsing 3 pages of posts to get to something I care about learning, seems to me that if you don't want to hear about a topic you wouldn't click the link.

Mmm.

Can we please move on from this topic now?

It must be every day someone asks this question and the same answers get said over and over.

What's sup with all these "Games as art" threads that pop up on here. I swear there's about 2 new threads a week about this, and always with the same question, and responses. I've never seen a site pop up with this as much as here.

Would you all please shut the fuck up once and for all about fucking games as art.

nobody gives a shitting shit.

are we still on about this? i thought we had all decided a long time ago (maybe about 70 years or so) that everything is art. games are included in everything. art is an expression of human intellect or emotion. games do that. everything does that. so please stop it with the games are art topic already.

 

[Judgement101]

Can the mods please make a rule where the "Games are art" topic is considered being a troll because it normally causes flaming.

OT:It whatever you think it is.