Games that penalize you for playing a certain way

[DoPo]

every modern stealth game, they penalize you for killing enemies. WTF, why can't I kill my enemies if I do it stealthy?

Erm, which, according to you, is more stealthy:
a) not leaving evidence
b) leaving evidence

Because I thought it's a), you seem to imply it's b)

 

[go-10]

every modern stealth game, they penalize you for killing enemies. WTF, why can't I kill my enemies if I do it stealthy?

Erm, which, according to you, is more stealthy:
a) not leaving evidence
b) leaving evidence

Because I thought it's a), you seem to imply it's b)

I'm not implying any, I just prefer b)
is it wrong that I choose to play a game differently from you? Why should all our experiences be the same?
In MGS and Mark the Ninja you can move and hide the bodies, so what does it matter if I choose to kill my enemies? Also this evidence matters little if by the enemy never sees it, because 9 out of 10 times I make it so that if the enemy discovers the "evidence" it's already too late for them

 

[DoPo]

is it wrong that I choose to play a game differently from you? Why should all our experiences be the same?

You are reaching conclusions I've not even suggested. You asked "why is this happening". The answer lies among those two options. It's that simple.

this evidence matters little if by the enemy never sees it, because 9 out of 10 times I make it so that if the enemy discovers the "evidence" it's already too late for them

It's evidence. What more do you want here? Presumably somebody can find the bodies - even if they can't, they will very damn well notice people missing. The usual goal of a stealth game is to not be known you've been there. By leaving evidence that's making other pepole know you've been there. And the scoring systems reflect that - they reflect you've not been stealthy enough. What is the problem with that then? They seem to be functioning exactly as intended.

 

[moosemaimer]

I played through DE:HR three or four times before the Director's Cut came out, and I always went the full stealth approach, except I kept an AP pistol on me at all times. First boss- throw stun grenades, shoot in head. Second boss, shoot with the EMP gun and shoot in head. Third boss I used the Typhoon or the knockout trick.

Once I'd finished the DC and started New Game+ I decided to go full lethal whenever possible, and you don't need a lot of augs when your solution to every problem is headshots and explosions. Hacking isn't as important when you can loot bodies for keycards and you start finding new paths through areas you would normally avoid because it would be too difficult to stealth through them.

 

[go-10]

It's evidence. What more do you want here? Presumably somebody can find the bodies - even if they can't, they will very damn well notice people missing. The usual goal of a stealth game is to not be known you've been there. By leaving evidence that's making other pepole know you've been there. And the scoring systems reflect that - they reflect you've not been stealthy enough. What is the problem with that then? They seem to be functioning exactly as intended.

I don't want to just go by and leave them alone, I enjoy taking out my enemies, it's a video game. I should not be penalized for playing a certain way. Stealth means not being seen or heard, how you go about doing that should be up to you not the game to decide

I get the whole 'in real life you'd be found in an instant' and 'that it's just common sense that people missing are a dead give away' but games never go that far out of their way to make this relevant gameplay wise. If a guard is missing some games make other characters investigate for a couple of seconds other games simply replace the guard with another one. None of them contact their higher ups to inform a person abandoning their position

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Taking the mostly lethal route in Dishonored bags you the High Chaos ending, where Emily ends up evil, everything generally goes to shit, and Samuel the boatman gets all passive-aggressive. Which is a bit hard to avoid, considering most of the game's items and spells are in some way lethal. To be fair, I preferred the challenge of doing everything stealthily and without resorting to murdering everyone in sight to get Low Chaos, but it does strike me as a tad unfair that the game pushes all these awesome, deadly gadgets and magic on you, then turns around and goes "Man, you are such an asshole for using that!"

Wholly agree here. Funnily enough, I might have forgiven how inconsistent and mildly frustrating it was had the game allowed me to change what was in Corvo's right hand.

Like in Skyrim and Bioshock where we have control over what is equipped in each hand, Dishonored really lacked here. I was stuck with a sword I never used at all on a stealth run and thus had to constantly switch the left hand between blink, sleep dart and all the other gadgets and abilities.

Of course it didn't help that the "lethal" approach made the game considerably easier, and much, much shorter (an issue with any "stealth" game). But forcing me to use a lethal weapon in a game whose challenge (and main draw) lies in taking a sneaky approach was endlessly frustrating. Left mouse button did nothing for 20+ hours...twice

 

[Mangue Surfer]

I tried going commando in Deus Ex and don't work either. The game simple punish you whatever. Maybe is the developers vision of challenge.

 

[Username Redacted]

The worst part is that if you knock someone out and then they're eaten by rats while knocked out it counts as you killing them. A friend of mine was trying to play through the game with no kills and couldn't figure out what kept screwing him over until he released that rats would randomly kill people he knocked out, so from then on every time he knocked someone out he'd pick up their body and move it so that it wasn't laying on the ground. Such a pain in the ass.

I never had a problem with that, but I do have a humorous story of my own.

I was playing a zero-kill play through after I had finished my kill-everyone-and-everything play through and I had gotten through most of the game. I was in the flooded district right before meeting Daud. I blinked up to one of Daud's assassins on a slanted roof and choked him out, and quickly blinked to another before he could spot me. As I choked out the second I happened to turn back to the first body just as it slid off the roof. Rushing over to the edge and looking down I saw the body hit the ground with a crunch.

I knew that this would count as a kill against me, and I considered reloading but then stopped. Of all the coincidences that had to happen to let this poor soul have stood in just the wrong spot so that his unconscious body would roll off the roof we're too astoundingly high that I had to laugh.

I finished a 1-kill play through.

R.I.P faceless nameless assassin.

Edit: on topic; I don't think Dishonored punishes you for killing since I actually liked the bad ending more.

I nearly had this issue (though I quickloaded) when dealing, in the early game, with the creepers below the hideout. First time I shot them both with tranquilizer darts only to realize that one of them had fallen forward into the sewer and drowned.

-_-

Second attempt: shot both with the darts, activated time slow and then sprinted to catch the falling creeper before he hit the water, cradling him in my arms before gently depositing him on the ground. Unconscious but alive.

 

[DoPo]

I should not be penalized for playing a certain way.

Sure, all games should just give us all the points all the time. I see. And we shouldn't be penalised in a racing game for not moving at all - we should just win by default. And all that "building stuff" and "commanding armies" stuff in Heroes is just padding - why do we need to do it? We're just penalized, man.

I get the whole 'in real life you'd be found in an instant' and 'that it's just common sense that people missing are a dead give away' but games never go that far out of their way to make this relevant gameplay wise.

Except when they do by scoring you. That's exactly the rationale - in the real world leaving evidence would be against the goal - the game cannot model that for computers are limited to something called "not simulating the whole universe in 100% detail". Hence we have the technique of representing stuff differently. In the real world walking around with your knees bent slightly is not really much less noticeable than walking normally. In some video games this is used for "sneaking" when it'd just be silly IRL. Yes if you do want to not be noticeable you would make sure you take up as little visual space as possible and generally not stand out for which the slight crouch is a metaphor for.

When the whole game is built toward an idea and you go against it, it's not fair to call it "penalizing" you. You're then clearly not playing the game you think you're playing. In Deus Ex the choices are one of the defining feature of the gameplay - being able to take on situation in a variety of ways is a very key element - when suddenly some choices are actively being ignored and work against you in situations - the boss fights mentioned several times, then yes, you would have a point. In a game that tries to make sure nobody knows you passed, you claim that staying with that theme is incorrect, then no, I don't think so.

If you want to play your way - go pick something that allows it. Most games consist of structured rules towards a particular idea, it's only natural that going against that idea would be...you know, against that idea.

 

[Pyrian]

I went through Daud's missions killing every unambiguous enemy (I spared most of the gangsters because I was basically recruiting them) and condemned the final boss to a fate worse than death. Result? Low chaos. Lol.

I made it through VtM:Bloodlines as a Toreador with guns&celerity for combat. Worked fine. Spent the rest on social skills (and a little bit of stealth, IIRC).

Mark of the Ninja annoys me with its excellent alarm mechanics. It's fun to fight and/or escape when you get caught! So, what's the problem? The points penalty is so freakin' high that I always reload anyway. Why go to the trouble of making that part of the game fun if you're going to turn around and prevent you from buying upgrades if you do it?

For me, DX:HR stealth required no augs, whereas running a combat character was very aug heavy. I mean, there's stealth augs and combat augs, but the combat augs are useful and the stealth augs just aren't.

 

[Ghraf]

Metal Gear Solid 3 could be kinda said to penalize you for playing a certain way, since in the the Sorrow boss fight you have to deal with the ghosts of all the people you've killed. If you don't kill anyone then you only have to "fight" the four other Cobra unit members and it's much shorter and easier.

 

[beastro]

Everquest was the king of this if you were most any melee class and many casters or priests.

For the most part only Druids and Necromancers could solo well with Wizard's struggling until they got their AoE snare spell.

Ride into the game ignorant back in 2000 and pick a warrior, you could find yourself solo well to about lv8-12 but after that you'd have to meditate to regen health and without healing spells you relied on your 2-3 hp per tick regen which could take you half an hour or more to kill one mob a lower level than you while Necros and Druids could chew through reds and eventually yellows well into the 20s and grind dark blue mobs beyond there.

On the other hand, Druids were fucked trying to group, having the shittiest priest heals, bad DPS, bad HP buffs, worst damage shield for melees than mages and limited utility spells to add to the group while Necros could still provide decent, though less than ideal DPS and when it came to raiding they eventually found a niche feeding mana to healing classes... Druid got shit and were only of use porting guildmates to raids.

I quit in 2003 and they've since fixed a lot of things, but Druids remain limited and Necros up until recently remained among the most flexible of group/solo classes.

With that said, that game made me loath casters and their traditional overpoweredness in RPGs. As much as I dislike WoW, it at least made playing a melee class enjoyable.

 

[Pyrian]

EQ was designed to be played in groups. Even the good solo's are using pets.

 

[BeerTent]

Payday 2 prefers that the player do all manner of different missions, enforcing XP deductions (Although I think this was lessened recently) if you did the missions you liked over and over, forgoing the less fun ones. (Go Bank, Election Day, Framing Frame, and Big Oil can all fuck right off, most of all those fuse box bits) I get trying to get people to branch out and do different things in all the jobs, but that probably shouldn't include the ones you fucking despise when all you want is to grind for the upper level abilities. (I'm lvl 97 and, as I'm not interested in Infamy, should never need to worry about XP again! )

I also find that doing the higher difficulties, You're either Stealth -OR- Plan B. There is no way to effectively do both, especially with Randoms on Overkill, or on Death-Wish. I find this pretty annoying, because I want to at least have a chance of stealthing with a detection rate below 75. This is kind of impossible to do when you absolutely NEED the armor and weapons on everybody to take on the 6 skull-dozers the game throws at you at once.

Yes. 6 at once.

I took one down while facing three. I figured I EARNED a drink after that. (I was level 0-82.)

On the topic of the XP deductions, I've never had a problem with it. If you just do all of hector's missions instead of just repeating say, Rats... You'll likely never have a problem. And if everything's starting to get around -1%, just rob a bank, and it'll go back to +/-0%.

I'm looking for people who are good, yanno. Not fuckin' brainless and carry a headset. If you're interested in getting back into it, and you're on the east cost. Feel free to toss a line. :3

 

[Demonchaser27]

So, I made a mistake earlier today, one that I probably shouldnt have made but I did. I played a stealth build in Deus Ex: Human Revolution, and recently got to the first boss. Wow, fuck me, that is a terribly designed boss fight. Ive heard the stories about this games bosses, and thought maybe it was exaggeration, but no, Im an idiot.
The rest of the game feels so good with stealth, im honestly shocked the first boss fight is just shoot guy in face until you win, its such a disservice to otherwise amazing game so far.

Any other stories of games that arent friendly to certain playstyles, at least for a section or two?

Yeah this bothers me to no end in games. I'm relentlessly fascinated with roleplaying in games (actual roleplaying) and when a game won't let me play the builds that they promise or make them unviable at any point of the game, it usually frustrates me to where I quit playing said game. Love slow powerful weapons usually, greatswords and sniper rifles for instance.

Dark Souls 2 (whether it's fixed now or not I don't know) had the problem of dex builds being innately weaker and having to spend more souls because their weapons were heavily weaker than most strength ones and their durability is terrible, causing the player to have to carry more weapons on them at all times. This also helped strength builds be more viable since the required 2 - 3 weapons equipped added to the overall weight making strength builds almost a dodge(y?) and speedy as the dex builds. This is especially problematic when considering areas that aren't necessarily large, but have mountains of enemies that if you don't fight them and try to skip them then they will gang up on you.

Borderlands 2 has many problems with this, particularly the further playthroughs you do. Scaling of enemies is absolutely insane. Weapons don't scale as well and are too reliant on good luck to be useful in further playthroughs. Which is why slag is almost a necessity, unfortunately. Levels (which have been a problem for me in borderlands games) are far too incremental. Leveling doesn't ever feel good since you barely see a difference in any thing as you level up. And any form of good feeling that comes from late-game (even though that's a dumb concept to me to have to wait until late-game for it to feel good) is ruined by the heavily scaling enemies. Certain builds are just completely unviable. Zero loses almost all viability outside of his melee build (UVHM's bosses just wreck him and he has little recourse, despite using various weapon types and farming for hours which shouldn't be necessary anyway). Certain enemy types have ridiculous health values and get regen to further imbalance them against certain more careful playing builds. Particularly Rabid variants of enemies which are COMPLETELY broken. They have mountains of health, are usually pretty small and have hard to hit weak points, move insanely fast, and still deal massive damage faster than any other enemy type while still having health regen that scales up exponentially as they go up in level. You know it's a problem when it's far easier to kill and Ultimate badass version of an enemy than it is to kill the smaller rabid versions.