Games that punish you for doing well

[Fluffythepoo]

Difficultly dynamically increasing based on the game's perception of your competency = punishment? Sounds like some people don't like to be challenged.. in which case rts games prolly should be avoided.

Also specifically in regards to total war: causing RD early isnt an indication of you doing well its a actually a reflection of you being punished for over aggression, ie you over extending yourself, ie you actually doing bad (as over extending is strategically inadvisable if you cant overwhelm your foes immediately.. see Blitzkrieg for an example)

And in medival total war they had something even worse than a bar you can monitor and actually try to balance out.. they hada tha freakina Pope xD (attacking Rome basically turned all of europe against you)

 

[Shdwrnr]

The Homeworld series would punish you for doing well as the enemy fleets are scaled based on the value of your fleet. One of the most common mistakes a player will make is during the Garden of Kadesh. In that mission, you can capture several (like, 8) Ion Cannon Frigates. If you keep them into the next mission, it's damn near impossible.

 

[ChiliNoMore]

Was just playing Shogun 2 Total War and I hit a moment known as "Realm Divide". What this means is you've done so well that every single clan in the game is going to declare war on you. The only way you know how close you are to a realm divide is a bar measuring your fame and it's a vague indicator at best. I declared war on a neighbor to help an ally, took two towns and holy crap, suddenly everyone else wants my head on a silver platter.

Another example of this BS is World of Tanks where the higher tier tanks make less credits than lower tier vehicles. I heard the excuse that this is so the lower tiers are always full of players which is BS because the lower tiers are more fun and thus will always have players. Almost every single time I run my tier 9 german heavy I lose money. It's a bad system meant to discourage players from advancing to the higher tiers. I would say they should have more events for tiers 1-6, more credit boosts, more 2x xp days instead of punishing people for having the nerve to play the higher tiers.

Yes this has just been me venting so far *shoots a harsh glare at Shogun 2* but this leads to a discussion. What other games punish you for doing well?

and your excuse to play the vanilla game without mods is?...
seriously, everyone knows the total war series are filled with minor to major bugs and flaws, one of them being the AI diplomacy... you'll get backstabbed by long-time allies with no reason, losing relations with all nations because someone broke a trade agreement, etc...

try darthmod or another similar overhaul mod, you'll not regret it.

 

[Ghaleon640]

I think I remember hearing about Raiden Fighter Aces (or one of the games in it cause its a small collection) would get harder the better you did. Makes a lot of sense, once you start feeling like a badass, getting all of your powerups and dodging everything, the difficulty ramps up, blows you up, and you want to put in another quarter.

 

[porous_shield]

The first Motorstorm game is horrible for punishing you the better you play. Each race has a couple of cars the game wants to finish in first and second and then from 3rd to about 7th is, what I have named, the suicide pack that does its darndest to stop you from getting past them. If you stick near the back or around 7th the games AI seems normal but once you gain the lead, or try to, the suicide pack will drive you off cliffs or into obstacles with no attempt whatsoever to save themselves. They will speed up and overtake you with boost then slam on their brakes when they are right in front of you so that you're slowed to a crawl. They also love to use the pit maneuver whenever you try to turn; trying to hand brake around a turn well result in them crashing directly into you without any attempt at turning on their part.

In Pacific Rift and Apocalypse seem to lack this behaviour.

 

[uchytjes]

Another example of this BS is World of Tanks where the higher tier tanks make less credits than lower tier vehicles. I heard the excuse that this is so the lower tiers are always full of players which is BS because the lower tiers are more fun and thus will always have players. Almost every single time I run my tier 9 german heavy I lose money. It's a bad system meant to discourage players from advancing to the higher tiers. I would say they should have more events for tiers 1-6, more credit boosts, more 2x xp days instead of punishing people for having the nerve to play the higher tiers.

While I have yet to get that far on my own account (best I've got is a T1 heavy and an M7 light) I do understand one thing about what you are saying. Basically, the main reason that running a higher tier vehicle constantly is discouraged is because that once everyone got to that level that would be all that they played unless they wanted to go into another tree. They want people to have their first month or so of experience in the game to be one of a large community with thousands of players with a wide range of skills, not one where end game is 90% of the game. The way it is now, they encourage players to grind credits in the lower tiers, playing with noobs and pros alike and then grinding XP in the higher tiers to get better tanks for use in clan wars and tournaments. Sure a change to the experience system would be nice (like maybe 3-5x xp every Friday for an hour or two or maybe including xp discounts with the credit discount with the weekly tree focuses) but as it stands, it encourages more players to play with each other rather than having an elite top tier circle. Although I do have one complaint: GOD DAMNED KV-1's RUINING MY SCOUTING RUNS WITH THEIR ARMOR THAT I CAN'T EVEN PENETRATE.

 

[MASTACHIEFPWN]

Generally all of the Total war games.
The worst I've experianced was Medieval 2.
However, it's kind of not present in Napoleon, because everyone just hates you from the start.

 

[Username Redacted]

Most comeback mechanics in fighting games can fuck right off. Ultras in SFIV (as previously mentioned) become more powerful the worse you're doing. X-Factor in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 (also already mentioned) can practically hold your hand as you mow down your opponent. About the only recent fighting games that did comebacks well are BlazBlue and Persona 4 Arena. The former starts slowly drip feeding you extra super-meter automatically once you're below ~25% health while the latter gives you 50 free meter, raises your max meter to 150 and ups your defense one your below ~35% health. In short the well designed comeback mechanics are ones that give you the resources to enable a comeback without actually making it easier (i.e. they don't allow for shorter and/or easier combos).

Also regarding rubber banding in racing games I still have nightmares about the piece of shit that was Midnight Club 2 for the PS2. The AI in that game practically existed up your ass for how closely they followed you and how quick they where to pass you for the slightest error on your part. Need for Speed: Underground wasn't much better as the rubber banding in that game was such a problem that combined with the fact that the AI adapted with you (i.e. you upgraded your car so did it) that for later races the strategy became to take the best car in the game and downgrade it to stock parts, try to wreck all the opposing racers and pray for the best.

 

[Xan Krieger]

Was just playing Shogun 2 Total War and I hit a moment known as "Realm Divide". What this means is you've done so well that every single clan in the game is going to declare war on you. The only way you know how close you are to a realm divide is a bar measuring your fame and it's a vague indicator at best. I declared war on a neighbor to help an ally, took two towns and holy crap, suddenly everyone else wants my head on a silver platter.

Another example of this BS is World of Tanks where the higher tier tanks make less credits than lower tier vehicles. I heard the excuse that this is so the lower tiers are always full of players which is BS because the lower tiers are more fun and thus will always have players. Almost every single time I run my tier 9 german heavy I lose money. It's a bad system meant to discourage players from advancing to the higher tiers. I would say they should have more events for tiers 1-6, more credit boosts, more 2x xp days instead of punishing people for having the nerve to play the higher tiers.

Yes this has just been me venting so far *shoots a harsh glare at Shogun 2* but this leads to a discussion. What other games punish you for doing well?

and your excuse to play the vanilla game without mods is?...
seriously, everyone knows the total war series are filled with minor to major bugs and flaws, one of them being the AI diplomacy... you'll get backstabbed by long-time allies with no reason, losing relations with all nations because someone broke a trade agreement, etc...

try darthmod or another similar overhaul mod, you'll not regret it.

I only play the Total War series with Darthmod, I never play vanilla anymore.

Another example of this BS is World of Tanks where the higher tier tanks make less credits than lower tier vehicles. I heard the excuse that this is so the lower tiers are always full of players which is BS because the lower tiers are more fun and thus will always have players. Almost every single time I run my tier 9 german heavy I lose money. It's a bad system meant to discourage players from advancing to the higher tiers. I would say they should have more events for tiers 1-6, more credit boosts, more 2x xp days instead of punishing people for having the nerve to play the higher tiers.

While I have yet to get that far on my own account (best I've got is a T1 heavy and an M7 light) I do understand one thing about what you are saying. Basically, the main reason that running a higher tier vehicle constantly is discouraged is because that once everyone got to that level that would be all that they played unless they wanted to go into another tree. They want people to have their first month or so of experience in the game to be one of a large community with thousands of players with a wide range of skills, not one where end game is 90% of the game. The way it is now, they encourage players to grind credits in the lower tiers, playing with noobs and pros alike and then grinding XP in the higher tiers to get better tanks for use in clan wars and tournaments. Sure a change to the experience system would be nice (like maybe 3-5x xp every Friday for an hour or two or maybe including xp discounts with the credit discount with the weekly tree focuses) but as it stands, it encourages more players to play with each other rather than having an elite top tier circle. Although I do have one complaint: GOD DAMNED KV-1's RUINING MY SCOUTING RUNS WITH THEIR ARMOR THAT I CAN'T EVEN PENETRATE.

That actually does hurt the people just reaching tier V because the long time players who just play for the credits know everything about the game and dominate. I admit it, I love playing tier 2 just so I can ruin new people. That doesn't make me a total jerk, does it?

 

[Parakeettheprawn]

Pretty much any fighting game I've played. I actually tried to grasp Soul Calibur 2, started doing "okay", but the second I'm doing okay it suddenly enabled fighters on the easiest difficulty to use combos that could take down half my health bar with no way of knowing how to defend or counter -- having only recently just been taught the basics. My suspicion was that I was supposed to grind and practice but... that's not exactly what I'd call fun or good teaching.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

I didn't like how in Oblivion the enemies scaled as you did, making them much harder to kill. Same with Fallout 3, I got tired of burning through a small countries munition supply to kill one critter. So I cheated. For Oblivion I got a mod that allows you to wear unlimited rings and amulets, and Fallout 3 I got a couple of custom made weapons.

Playing the game by it's rules is normally fine, but not when those rules replace the joyful progression with skull cracking frustration.

 

[WouldYouKindly]

Was just playing Shogun 2 Total War and I hit a moment known as "Realm Divide". What this means is you've done so well that every single clan in the game is going to declare war on you. The only way you know how close you are to a realm divide is a bar measuring your fame and it's a vague indicator at best. I declared war on a neighbor to help an ally, took two towns and holy crap, suddenly everyone else wants my head on a silver platter.

Another example of this BS is World of Tanks where the higher tier tanks make less credits than lower tier vehicles. I heard the excuse that this is so the lower tiers are always full of players which is BS because the lower tiers are more fun and thus will always have players. Almost every single time I run my tier 9 german heavy I lose money. It's a bad system meant to discourage players from advancing to the higher tiers. I would say they should have more events for tiers 1-6, more credit boosts, more 2x xp days instead of punishing people for having the nerve to play the higher tiers.

Yes this has just been me venting so far *shoots a harsh glare at Shogun 2* but this leads to a discussion. What other games punish you for doing well?

The Shogun 2 thing is a small case for me now. I've played a lot of campaigns and I can just feel when the next town I take will trigger it. When you know it's coming, you can do really well against everything but sea invasions. For the most part, all you need is armies in your border cities and a powerful army to take Kyoto. Bribing the ever loving piss out of your allies can keep them on your side for a few precious turns, if not indefinitely since the negative effect of realm divide caps at 200. I have a Takeda campaign where me and the Hojo are best buds even years beyond realm divide. There was a similar mechanic in Rome where the senate declares you an enemy once you get too much popular support, so it's not like they don't have precedent for it.

WoT is a free to play game. The slowing progress and losing money is to get you to buy gold for a premium account, which makes it a lot easier to go positive. If you are running a premium account, maybe you should think about how you drive the E-75 I take it? Could be the VK4502 P B too, but that's a much less popular line these days. Not the time or place for that discussion though. There's a reason why people usually own several tier 5 mediums. The M4 and the T-34 are fantastic money makers as are some of the tier 6 TDs, like the Hellcat and the SU-100 using the 100mm gun. The tier 8 premiums also make a fuckton of money, more than 100k on a great match. So yeah, it's pretty much part of their scheme to make money, which considering it's free to play, I can forgive them for.

 

[NearLifeExperience]

Ooooh. So THAT'S why everyone attacked me when I took Kyoto. I threw every ashigeru I had at that place, conquering it with just a few units left and SUDDENLY HOSTILES EVERYWHERE! My allies dropped me with no notification or reason and everyone marched onto Kyoto at the same time to stomp on my face. Which wasn't hard to do, since all I had left were a few puny peasants with pikes.

Well, that's just bullshit. Ok, sure you can expect more hostility if you occupy the capital in feudal Japan, but to have every clan instantly drop everything they're doing and come fuck my shit up the instant I take the city may seem as a bit harsh..

Pretty much any fighting game I've played. I actually tried to grasp Soul Calibur 2, started doing "okay", but the second I'm doing okay it suddenly enabled fighters on the easiest difficulty to use combos that could take down half my health bar with no way of knowing how to defend or counter -- having only recently just been taught the basics. My suspicion was that I was supposed to grind and practice but... that's not exactly what I'd call fun or good teaching.

My suspicion is that you just suck at fighting games :') ... or just need some practice. Yeah that sounds nicer.

 

[Tanis]

God Hand:
The better you do, the more 'kick' your foes have.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

A system where the game ramps up difficulty if you are doing too well, always made sense to me. Yes its "punishing success" but I can see the idea behind it. People want to be challenged when they play a game, so if they aren't being challenged then up the challenge until they are. I like how Left 4 Dead did it. Plenty of ammo and supplies? Wheres the tension in that? Toss hordes of zombies at them until things are nice and tense, then if they survive the massive onslaught reward them with just enough supplies to survive the next one.

 

[uchytjes]

While I have yet to get that far on my own account (best I've got is a T1 heavy and an M7 light) I do understand one thing about what you are saying. Basically, the main reason that running a higher tier vehicle constantly is discouraged is because that once everyone got to that level that would be all that they played unless they wanted to go into another tree. They want people to have their first month or so of experience in the game to be one of a large community with thousands of players with a wide range of skills, not one where end game is 90% of the game. The way it is now, they encourage players to grind credits in the lower tiers, playing with noobs and pros alike and then grinding XP in the higher tiers to get better tanks for use in clan wars and tournaments. Sure a change to the experience system would be nice (like maybe 3-5x xp every Friday for an hour or two or maybe including xp discounts with the credit discount with the weekly tree focuses) but as it stands, it encourages more players to play with each other rather than having an elite top tier circle. Although I do have one complaint: GOD DAMNED KV-1's RUINING MY SCOUTING RUNS WITH THEIR ARMOR THAT I CAN'T EVEN PENETRATE.

That actually does hurt the people just reaching tier V because the long time players who just play for the credits know everything about the game and dominate. I admit it, I love playing tier 2 just so I can ruin new people. That doesn't make me a total jerk, does it?

If it makes you a jerk then I am also a big jerk. The tank I have the most battles in is the M2 light. I really fricking love that tank, but once I acquire a M24 Chaffee I'm sure that my main tank will change immediately. Also, on the topic of it being unfair for pros to mingle in with the noobs in the mid tier matches, it is a necessary and preferable evil. Would you rather have everyone be piled up in the end-game tanks leaving little to no competition for the low and mid tiers or have a balance towards the middle where the low tiers get scumbagers such as ourselves and noobs while the higher tiers are used for special battles and generally better players?

 

[The Madman]

Crusader Kings II (a game I love with all my heart) does this by creating a kingdom that becomes harder and harder to govern the more territory you have. Trying to split the nation into earldoms when sometimes you just want to give your immediate family dutchies - who will in turn try and reduce your royal authority - can get very frustrating.

That's just politics and human nature though, not really a choice made for difficulties sake: The more powerful you become, the more envious people become and the more people you have trying to attain some of that power for themselves.

Or as a wise man once said "The bigger they are, the harder they fall!"

 

[Abomination]

Crusader Kings II (a game I love with all my heart) does this by creating a kingdom that becomes harder and harder to govern the more territory you have. Trying to split the nation into earldoms when sometimes you just want to give your immediate family dutchies - who will in turn try and reduce your royal authority - can get very frustrating.

That's just politics and human nature though, not really a choice made for difficulties sake: The more powerful you become, the more envious people become and the more people you have trying to attain some of that power for themselves.

Or as a wise man once said "The bigger they are, the harder they fall!"

Oh it certainly is human nature and it's great how the game has these elements included. But you need to have a large nation because there are these other factions (namely the Byzantine and Holy Roman Empires) who will gobble you up if you can't field an army strong enough to contend with any aggressive claims.

 

[thePyro_13]

Homeworld, RIP. The difficulty of each level is determined by how you performed in the previous level. It pretty much assures you that if you ever get the hang of the game, everything will dial up to 11 and fuck you over.

 

[ninjapenguin1414]

The bonus XP for ghosting levels in Deus Ex:HR is rather small compared to what you would get by going in guns blazing and shooting the whole place to tiny bits.

The leveling system in Oblivion was rather broken too. Before I started using overhaul mods, I actually had to make a custom class that had the skills I used least as main skills so I (and thus my enemies) wouldn't level up too fast.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but don't you get like 500 or 1000 xp (maybe more) for going through a level not getting noticed (as well as the traveler bonus for finding certain areas) and not killing anyone? While killing people only gets you 10 xp or I think 25 with a head-shot. So the only bonus is being able to search for more items which you wouldn't need anyway as long as you are sneaking.