Gay characters in children's cartoons

[OmniscientOstrich]

It's an interesting idea, but I believe that children will be far too thick to pick up on/appreciate this kind of characterisation. I mean when I was at the age of 6, the thought of any kind of romantic expression: straight, gay or otherwise utterly repulsed me. I would be rather perturbed by this display of emotion and demand it be immediately interchanged with something involving lots of guns and explosions, because that's all a male kid of that age is looking for in a show.

 

[megaraccoon]

Note: It's been brought to my attention that there was a thread similar to this once before, however I wish to restart the discussion with my own questions and perspective, so please no "Search bar plz" comments.


The recent jokes surrounding the sexual orientation of the character Rainbow Dash from MLP:FiM, while obviously not to be taken seriously, have sparked a bit of thought from me regarding homosexual or otherwise "Gay" characters in cartoons and what others might think of such characters becoming more common. Children's cartoons don't focus on things such as sexuality to any significant degree, I?m thinking more within the context of schoolyard crushes than anything, so keep that in mind while reading the OP.

There is a very distinct lack of gay characters in children?s cartoons, at least here in America there certainly is, and I think that is because being gay still carries a taboo in this part of the world. What better way to get past this archaic stigma than to teach children that gays aren?t to be feared or hated? Including gay characters in children?s television programs could do a lot to help with this, not using their homosexuality to define them but merely as a part of their character as a whole. We don?t need more effeminate men prancing around in drag or butch lesbians to drive the point home, I think we need relatable, well thought-out characters that can claim to respectably represent homosexuals without resorting to stereotypical characterization. Not only would this indirectly foster tolerance of gays in children but it would also give any children who might actually turn out to be homosexual someone to look up to or, at the very least, confirmation that whatever they feel is not abnormal.

An example of one such character that I?ve always thought was very well-done was [a href="http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Haku"]Haku[/a] from the Naruto series. He?s a pacifist by nature but continues to fight out of some misguided devotion to his insane father figure (Or romantic interest, I could never quite tell) Zabuza,.To me that?s brilliant characterization with Haku?s homosexuality being only one feature of his overall complex personality. He does dress and look female but I think it?s done rather tastefully.

Just so that I?m not misinterpreted understand that I don?t want to turn all kid?s shows into some PSA for love and tolerance of all peoples, kids want to be entertained not feel like they?re being lectured, I just think that there is a missed opportunity in excluding gays (Intentional or no) from this type of programming. I would also like to point out that I am not personally gay, so I?m essentially an outsider looking in and probably have a bit of a skewed perspective because of this, any posts from Escapists that are actually gay would be appreciated.

Questions to consider when posting:
-Does the idea of including more or any gay characters in a show targeted at younger audiences bother you? Reasons for why or why not?
-Speaking specifically about the character of Rainbow Dash: In the (Highly unlikely) event that she was to actually turn out to be homosexual how would you feel about this change? Do you think she would make a good gay character or does she fit too neatly into established stereotypes?


EDIT: Accidentally hit post before I could add the poll. Rectifying this ASAP.

agree totally however you missed one point kids generally are tolerant of everyone regardless of who they are but its the parents and society that teaches them hate, plus i am gay and had a major crush on one boy in school and no one could tell i was gay untill comprehensive (high school) even then only when i had a boyfriend plus unfortunatly in my own experiance too many homosexuals put themselfs into stereotypical patterns and wave thier sexuallity around like a flag therby endering the gulf between gays and straight people, we got a saying in wales "dont care wat you do in bed, just make sure it stays there."

 

[Totenkopf]

I completely agree.

Positive role models are important for children, and there aren't enough gay ones.

It has been shown that many children are aware they are gay long before they are aware of sexuality or romantic issues - they just know. Having a character who they can relate to as part of the television they watch is essential for developing self-esteem and confidence.

There is no reason to bring 'sex' into it either - if a female character can have a crush on a boy, a female character can have a crush on a girl - we already have characters having crushes in children's shows, so nothing more needs to be added other than changing who the target of the crush is.

Since you brought up MLP - Rarity has a crush on Prince Blueblood. There's no reason Rainbow Dash couldn't have a crush on Spitfire (a female pony) and be just as appropriate.

Ah, okay.
Let's look at the implications of the statement in bold letters here.
There aren't enough positive role models for homosexual children -->
That means that those children can't relate to straight characters, and can't regard them as role models,
what in return means that a heterosexual person can't relate to homosexual characters,
and is unable to regard a homosexual character / person as role model.
Nice trench-digging I have to say, inconspicuous but effective.
But rather counterproductive for all participants, when I'm not mistaking, so I discourage people from doing so.

OT: I wouldn't mind homosexual characters in children's cartoons, as long as that doesn't bring a sexualized atmosphere with it. While this may seem unlikely at the first glance, I point at the fact the fact that adding new / unfamiliar aspects always holds a certain danger of degeneration, nothing against homosexual characters just a case of "better safe than sorry".
Consider, heterosexuality is the norm, thus the implications and the resulting general atmosphere can almost be described as asexual.
That's not really something we should risk too easily.

In case of Rainbow Dash: I wouldn't mind if she turned out to be homosexual, but remember that the introduction of this aspect should be executed appropriately.

A little thing I wanted to add: While the idea of those characters is okay for me, I regard the absolute, unreflecting demand for them as evidence of impertinence.

TL;DR:
Homosexual characters in children's cartoons are generally a decent idea, but the realization should be careful, appropriate and correctly evaluated.

 

[Therumancer]

Note: It's been brought to my attention that there was a thread similar to this once before, however I wish to restart the discussion with my own questions and perspective, so please no "Search bar plz" comments.


The recent jokes surrounding the sexual orientation of the character Rainbow Dash from MLP:FiM, while obviously not to be taken seriously, have sparked a bit of thought from me regarding homosexual or otherwise "Gay" characters in cartoons and what others might think of such characters becoming more common. Children's cartoons don't focus on things such as sexuality to any significant degree, I?m thinking more within the context of schoolyard crushes than anything, so keep that in mind while reading the OP.

There is a very distinct lack of gay characters in children?s cartoons, at least here in America there certainly is, and I think that is because being gay still carries a taboo in this part of the world. What better way to get past this archaic stigma than to teach children that gays aren?t to be feared or hated? Including gay characters in children?s television programs could do a lot to help with this, not using their homosexuality to define them but merely as a part of their character as a whole. We don?t need more effeminate men prancing around in drag or butch lesbians to drive the point home, I think we need relatable, well thought-out characters that can claim to respectably represent homosexuals without resorting to stereotypical characterization. Not only would this indirectly foster tolerance of gays in children but it would also give any children who might actually turn out to be homosexual someone to look up to or, at the very least, confirmation that whatever they feel is not abnormal.

An example of one such character that I?ve always thought was very well-done was [a href="http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Haku"]Haku[/a] from the Naruto series. He?s a pacifist by nature but continues to fight out of some misguided devotion to his insane father figure (Or romantic interest, I could never quite tell) Zabuza,.To me that?s brilliant characterization with Haku?s homosexuality being only one feature of his overall complex personality. He does dress and look female but I think it?s done rather tastefully.

Just so that I?m not misinterpreted understand that I don?t want to turn all kid?s shows into some PSA for love and tolerance of all peoples, kids want to be entertained not feel like they?re being lectured, I just think that there is a missed opportunity in excluding gays (Intentional or no) from this type of programming. I would also like to point out that I am not personally gay, so I?m essentially an outsider looking in and probably have a bit of a skewed perspective because of this, any posts from Escapists that are actually gay would be appreciated.

Questions to consider when posting:
-Does the idea of including more or any gay characters in a show targeted at younger audiences bother you? Reasons for why or why not?
-Speaking specifically about the character of Rainbow Dash: In the (Highly unlikely) event that she was to actually turn out to be homosexual how would you feel about this change? Do you think she would make a good gay character or does she fit too neatly into established stereotypes?


EDIT: Accidentally hit post before I could add the poll. Rectifying this ASAP.

My thoughts on the subject are complicated. Without getting into my entire position on homosexuality in general, I will say that even if I didn't hold an attitude that can very briefly be summarized as being anti-gay men (with the overall position that like many things genders need to be dealt with sepertly, and that gays and lesbians need to be dealt with as differant subjects), I would oppose this. The reason is simply because I don't believe sex should be brought up with children who are by definition pre-sexual. The kind of material we're dealing with here is in the G or E catagory, which means sex of any sort should be off limits, later with a "T" rating it becomes a touchier subject since that's the point where you start having sexual and romantic themes, breast nudity, and other things, but then again homosexuals already have a prescence in the media at that level, there is tons of stuff out there dealing with homosexuality in high school settings and the like. Whether I approve or not, the bottom line is that it's out there at the media level where kids start developing their own sexual identities and coping with those issues.

At the G or E level, as in "children's programming" like the "My Little Pony" stuff, the most you deal with is strong friendships between characters, sex is not an issue. You have plenty of guys who are best friends along with the friendship issues that are presented, and the same can be said of girls who are great friends, and so on. Heck, if anything programming at that level tends to be very gender divided with shows directed at boys or girls and character casts set accordingly... largely because kids of that age don't "get" sex and tend to think the other gender is "icky", I mean we're at the "girls have cooties" level here.

If you start trying to make serious arguements that we should start having homosexuality inserted into the media that early, let's just say your effectively CREATING the worst possible stereotype for homosexuals. Let me be blunt, right now you have gays running around screaming that they don't try and "turn" people or put out propaganda or anything, while at the same time jumping down the throats of people on the other side for claiming that this is what "we" say they are doing even when we say no such thing. The whole "hey, let's put homosexuality into children's cartoons so they have good.. uh... role models, and are used to the idea!" pretty much defines the absolute worst stereotypes of the group your trying to empower here and if this was to be done it would basically be feeding into the most paranoid attitudes of anti-gay extremists (I myself am anti-gay, but I do not take it to an extreme level. I think people forget you CAN have a moderate position there... trying to draw lines only into extreme camps here is part of the whole problem, but that's another discussion entirely).

The bottom line is that the most you see at this level is friendship as I pointed out, there are no gender walls involved in that. When you start trying to direct sexual themes and propaganda at pre-sexual humans, I have an issue with that. While anti-gay overall, understand I'd have issues with someone wanting to put heterosexual sexual themes into this kind of programming so kids would be more "open and accepting to the idea"... any way you define it and from any position it's totally borked. Keep sex and sexual politics out of children's programming, leave it for the teen level where it belongs, those are issues to be introduced when kids are developing sexually, not beforehand.

 

[Jonabob87]

I think you guys are over shooting this. Being straight is biologically normal. Should we not present that as a norm? Yes, homosexuality is a part of life, but we dont need to stuff it into entertainment for the hell of it. Especially a kid's show. If a kid is going to be gay, let them find that out for themselves instead of doing it because this character from this show is gay.

Edit: Plus, i dont want to have to explain ANYTHING about sex to my children. Keep it simple.

You don't need to explain anything about sex - explain about love.

Also...

Being straight is biologically normal? Um, no. Homosexuality exists all throughout nature. Homosexuality is as biologically "normal" as heterosexuality.

Please don't make such ignorant and offensive statements.

Wrong. Homosexual behaviour exists in the animal kingdom usually as a last resort for when a mate of the opposite gender cannot be found. There have been observations of homosexual couplings in the animal kingdom but these are a vast VAST minority in the same way that less than 1% of the UK is gay (not sure about the US).

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Oh lord no. I didn't mean to convey that at all. My sexuality is as flippant as a sarcastic dolphin in a zoo. I just recently made a topic where I discuss my sexual attraction to transsexuals (and penises) lol. While growing up I was never taught 'boys with girls'. In fact, my mother made a point of telling me that whatever I wanted is fine by her. Same with my father. My sexual education at home boiled down to 'love is love. Be it a boy or a girl, if you're happy, we're happy.' I didn't even know being gay was an 'issue' until some boys at my school called me gay as I had told a friend I had a crush on a boy. Nowadays I've given up on sexual titles. I'm too complicated and ever-changing to care, lol. Anyway, I went way off-topic there.

Ah, I see, then. Snark doesn't translate well to plain text.

OT: I don't see it as an issue and most likely never will. You do and I'm 100% fine with that. Opinions differ and that makes life more interesting and a lot more fun, lol.

I guess we will just have to leave it there. Unless there is something I missed or that you feel I need to answer? I'd be more than happy to clear up anything, I just feel a debate between us is pretty pointless.

Now, see, I can see what TheFinalFantasyWolf was getting at, and possibly what you were: Kids' shows shouldn't focus too much on romance at all. At that age, it's an unnecessary distraction.

But when I see what looks like a symptom of something bigger than the topic at hand, I tend to call it like I see it. Ditto cognitive dissonance.

Yeah, that's quite a discredited study.

The only way you'd get "10% of population are gay" is if you include 8-9% who who have equal heterosexual AND homosexual interests/relations. I'm sorry but if you have sex with both men and women you are not gay, you are bisexual.

Now the problem is two very vocal parties have reason to dispute this common sense logic:

(1) the far right, who are so hateful and disgusted by homosexuality they void any considerations of heterosexuality from anyone who has any homosexual relations. They think in black and white, there can be no middle ground of bisexuality.
(2) gay activists like to use the inflated 10% figure with the misrepresentation "1 in 10 guys have interest only in males, none in females" when really it is "1 in 10 guys have a strong sexual interest in males though most of that 10% also like females".

It's true in so far as you should give consideration that 1-in-10 males would have strong same-sex attractions.

But it misrepresents that 1-in-10 males are gay and would have no interest in women.

Bisexuals are terribly under-represented in fiction, to spite them being far more common than exclusively homosexual individuals.

Oh, gotcha. I thought you were trying to argue that 98%-99% of the population were completely hetero, but then contradicting yourself with the 30% figure. (Trust me, I've seen far screwier arguments than that.) My bad.

I tend to go more on how someone identifies than on whom they've rolled in the hay with, to tell the truth.

 

[spartandude]

I think you guys are over shooting this. Being straight is biologically normal. Should we not present that as a norm? Yes, homosexuality is a part of life, but we dont need to stuff it into entertainment for the hell of it. Especially a kid's show. If a kid is going to be gay, let them find that out for themselves instead of doing it because this character from this show is gay.

Edit: Plus, i dont want to have to explain ANYTHING about sex to my children. Keep it simple.

You don't need to explain anything about sex - explain about love.

Also...

Being straight is biologically normal? Um, no. Homosexuality exists all throughout nature. Homosexuality is as biologically "normal" as heterosexuality.

Please don't make such ignorant and offensive statements.

also how does showing both gay relationships aswell as straight ones bad in terms of encouraging homosexuality, if all the characters they see are straight then they wont discover homosexuality, if we show both as eaquals then people can more adequetly explore their sexuality

 

[Mercsenary]

I dont know.. I'm of two minds of this. On one hand, yes more positive gay role models is a good thing. On the other, dealing with sexuality at that age? I'm not too comfortable with that.

Now, it could be said that being gay doesnt have much to do with sexuality but I think it does. At least to a point where it shouldn't really be made much of an issue in kid's show.

 

[spartandude]

Sexuality isn't important in children's cartoons. Unless your Johnny Bravo, sexuality isn't something that regularly appears. I can't imagine cartoons with homosexual characters, mainly because in this day and age the chances of such a thing being accepted are slim. I could care less if there is a homosexual character or not, mainly because sexuality isn't that common of a factor in children's cartoons. Plus, many children do not really notice or care about sexuality until they are much older. (teens) You remember "cooties" do you not?

true but if we all look at our childhoods we a brought up around cartoons and movies which do feature stright relationships, such as lets say disney movies, they dont have sex but they explore sexuality by only enforcing staight couples and never showing gay ones
and yes while children dont seem to care too much about sex and sexuality until puberty, by then they have already learned that straight couples are fine while gay ones are weird (not neccessrialy wrong but weird)

my point is they if kids are told that either sexuality is fine then by the time they start exploring it there wont be a stigma anymore

and besides kids do explore sexuality a little, kids can get crushes on people at a young age

 

[chowderface]

I'm not picking on you or your opinion, but what does that quoted section mean? I can't understand what you are saying by it.

Not being a jerk. Promise.

Essentially he's ridiculing Bara no Hime a bit; he's saying that, if heterosexual characters cannot be role models for homosexual children because homosexual children lack the capacity to relate to or empathize with heterosexual characters, then the inverse is true: homosexual characters cannot be role models for heterosexual children, because heterosexual children lack the capacity to relate to homosexual characters. Thus East is East, West is West, and ne'er the two shall meet; we'll need to have completely heterosexual shows for heterosexual children, completely homosexual shows for homosexual children, and thus we further stigmatize both.

That said I think he's misunderstanding Bara no Hime just a bit; I don't think he was saying gay children can't relate to hetero characters, just that we need more characters gay children can relate to on the basis of being gay. Which I think is the wrong way to look at it, but not nearly as misguided as totenkopf seems to think.

 

[spartandude]

im going to make one post to deal with something ive breifly said before

sex and sexuality are related but different things

sex is well sex

sexuality can include sex but also includes merely romantic relationships, people have a crush on someone, maybe even a kiss in some childrens stuff holding hands and such
these things happen all the time in childrens shows, the question is should this be restricetd only to straight people

 

[Unchained_M]

I think the most annoying thing here is how we underestimate the intelligence of children. We assume that because of their simple nature that they need to protected and coddled until 'the right age'. Believe it or not children are not interested in sex or such related things. I'm sure that partially due to an in ability to fully understand the intricacies of it. However you'll be surprised how many kids 'experiment sexually' without the realization of what they're doing.

If they had to choose between a strange movie where naked people appear to be wrestling versus Spider Man, they'll choose the cartoon. Because they're not interested in that sort of thing like adults are.

So does portraying a gay character help or hinder a child's development? On a subtle level portraying such things as a norm will certainly colour a kid's perspective but I don't think it will have as much of an impact at least in the early stages of development where they have 0 understanding and 0 interest in it. I think introducing these concepts to teenaged or preteen kids is far more beneficial than smaller, elementary school-aged children.


I also think the argument is going around in circles.

 

[GodEmperor47]

I think you guys are over shooting this. Being straight is biologically normal. Should we not present that as a norm? Yes, homosexuality is a part of life, but we dont need to stuff it into entertainment for the hell of it. Especially a kid's show. If a kid is going to be gay, let them find that out for themselves instead of doing it because this character from this show is gay.

Edit: Plus, i dont want to have to explain ANYTHING about sex to my children. Keep it simple.

You don't need to explain anything about sex - explain about love.

Also...

Being straight is biologically normal? Um, no. Homosexuality exists all throughout nature. Homosexuality is as biologically "normal" as heterosexuality.

Please don't make such ignorant and offensive statements.

Homosexuality is not nearly as common as heterosexuality. The purpose of all life, in the end, is to perpetuate itself. Homosexuality is counter-productive to that goal, and therefore abnormal. That's not to say gays are "icky" or "disgusting," and it's not offensive to point out basic biology. If you don't like science, you could go beat up a scientist, but it doesn't make them any less right. Sort of similar to hating a gay person because of what they think, doesn't make them any less right if you disagree. So stop throwing out stupid statements like "you're offensive and ignorant" and try thinking for a change.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

You misquoted me there. Just sayin' so you can change it and continue your talk with whoever it was that said it.

Ack. Sorry.

OT: It really wasn't snark. I was just using an extreme example to show that not conveying a sexual preference isn't an issue; I've never seen a character who is worm-sexual and I'm fine with that. And that, I promise, isn't snark or sarcasm. I mean, where does it end? Do we want to force people to include a character that represents every sexual orientation there is? Just because homosexuality is important to you (aimed at everyone) doesn't mean it needs to be everywhere. My sexuality is... I've got no clue. I don't care if a character never acts like me in a kid's show.

What I meant was that trying to be flippant doesn't translate well. I wish I could recall the quote about people interpreting text on their screen as rage or hysteria, because the same applies to attempts at flippancy. Text generally does not convey tone of voice well. (Hell, even emphasis requires formatting or allcaps or something.)

I don't need sexual orientation, of any sort, to be everywhere. I simply see cognitive dissonance in the fact that heterosexuality is pretty much everywhere (including in kids' shows, which are purportedly sexless), but no one ever seems to remark on it.