Gay Olympics....Wtf!!

[101flyboy]

Entitlement gets thrown around a lot, but I'll not open that bag of cats. Needless to say, I really don't think that is the issue at hand here. It's certainly not on my own part at the very least. It just doesn't come into this as far as I can see.
I think 90% of gamers are nice people. It's a particularly nice community from what I've seen actually, if one that likes to crack a lot of jokes. Maybe now that a lot more people are coming into it has changed that in the last 5 years, I don't know. I'm just not ready to condemn the community over a few X-Box Live kiddies and a couple of horrible stand out examples (the fat streetfighter guy).
I think most people are just passing through and catching snippets of news here, then getting confused when they're being told they're the bad guy for asking a very reasonable question.

Anyway, thanks again for the reply. Sorry for the wall of text there, but I was just coming grips with it as I was typing that out there.

All the best.

I truly value this post you made, it was very well thought out and clearly you put a lot of thought into what you wanted to type, and that has to be respected.

I just wanted to touch on a couple points. First, I don't think anyone is outright annoyed that the question "why do gay people need their own events" is being asked. It's not necessarily the question that causes annoyance. More the attitude that people are being a little dense and refusing to look at things from our perspective as LGBTQ persons. And not seeing what we have to say, not taking into account what we as people who are not straight, have to say regarding these matters. And what straight allies have to say regarding these matters.

It feels like..........."Okay, these people are being intentionally obtuse and reactionary, and want to have a problem". It feels like we're being ignored, shouted down by people who make the worst of our intentions, it feels like people just want to prove whatever bias they have against the community and jump on things like this to validate them even though this in no way is segregating straight people.

People are becoming very jaded of having to answer the same question that has been asked about 300 times the past few weeks in different ways, on this very forum. People are jaded and annoyed. And at this point it's hard to see who is asking the question out of curiosity and who is doing so to be dismissive and divisive.

We're not trying to make all heterosexual gamers feel like you're bad people. Or that all heterosexual gamers are the problem. This isn't a gay vs straight issue. It's an issue of bigotry. And although you may not see it yourself, I feel it, and so do several others here.............and that's because we're gay ourselves and we have a more direct sense of homophobia around us. We have that radar on at all times that you wouldn't have. We see the small things that you may not pick up. And it's enough bigotry to make people feel uncomfortable.

The answer to that is NOT telling people they're overreacting, it's not saying that we're wrong for feeling the way we do, and it's not telling us we're wrong for doing what we feel necessary to look out for the members in our community. The answer to the questions you may have regarding events such as Gaymercon and the Gay Olympics is listening to people who are in a better position to educate and make you aware on issues within the gay community in the gaming world, and the gay community in the world at large. Listen and learn. The constant interjections, assumptions, and judgments----not cool. It's not cool at all, it's not our fault for making it clear it's not cool.

 

[Ronin08]

Wasn't there JUST a Critical Miss about this very subject?

EDIT: That is to say, the reaction to specific groups wanting to host their own friendly gatherings/competitions, and the somewhat uncouth reactions to them as such.

 

[101flyboy]

Spoiler: Snip

Thank you and very well put.

It is most distressing to be placed in the same camp as the most fundamentally bigoted anti-homosexual loudmouths due to a slight deviation from the perfect homosexual "ally".

Raise a question about a method and suddenly you become lumped in as "part of the problem" by a very large contingent of "social justice warriors" who can't seem to distinguish an enemy from a friendly, if neutral, party.

Being guilty due to being a "white heterosexual male" is a most grave strategic diplomatic error in the homosexuals' fight for equality. Hurling abuse and guilt ridden accusations at those who are desired to be allies.

You think homosexuality is unnatural. You are no ally and you haven't shown one hint of desire to become one. You are at most, respectful. And respectful is good. But are you apart of our team? Are you truly accepting and supportive? No, you are not.

Now to turn this into a straight white male situation, and act like a victim. You are not a victim. You need to get over yourself and start looking at this from the perspective of someone who is NOT privileged beyond what a gay man could ever hope for.

With the amount of progress we've made as a community over the past couple years, I think we're doing something right. You are a real piece of work. Patronizing, arrogant, self-centered and offensive. Get over yourself.

Like I was saying.

Hold an opinion not 100% in line with the eventual homosexual utopia and get called "Patronizing, arrogant, self-centered and offensive." and be told to "Get over yourself."

No question as to my actions, of course. No query as to the number of gay rights protests I have attended or been in support of, no question as to what legislation I have voted for that supported homosexual rights, no concern for anything practical.

Hold an opinion that isn't 100% in line and get constantly harangued by an individual.

Homosexual utopia? Right. Like, how dare people not be pleased to see someone calling our sexuality unnatural yet designate themselves as a gay ally! How dare people not hope for a society where more than a plurality don't view their orientation and love lives as disgusting! How dare we not want to be talked down regarding gay issues by a person who isn't even gay themselves! We are just asking for so much, too much. How disrespectful.

 

[101flyboy]

At the end of the day I am like you I feel we need to stop grouping ourselves over such trivial things and just be people.

That will happen the day people are allowed to just be people without being victimized and brutalized for who they are.

 

[Friendly Lich]

Would you want to hang out with all the jocks at school who talk about nothing except football? Wouldn't you want to hangout with people with your own interests?. I imagine this is why they want their own Olympics.

 

[Ryotknife]

Thank you and very well put.

It is most distressing to be placed in the same camp as the most fundamentally bigoted anti-homosexual loudmouths due to a slight deviation from the perfect homosexual "ally".

Raise a question about a method and suddenly you become lumped in as "part of the problem" by a very large contingent of "social justice warriors" who can't seem to distinguish an enemy from a friendly, if neutral, party.

Being guilty due to being a "white heterosexual male" is a most grave strategic diplomatic error in the homosexuals' fight for equality. Hurling abuse and guilt ridden accusations at those who are desired to be allies.

You think homosexuality is unnatural. You are no ally and you haven't shown one hint of desire to become one. You are at most, respectful. And respectful is good. But are you apart of our team? Are you truly accepting and supportive? No, you are not.

Now to turn this into a straight white male situation, and act like a victim. You are not a victim. You need to get over yourself and start looking at this from the perspective of someone who is NOT privileged beyond what a gay man could ever hope for.

With the amount of progress we've made as a community over the past couple years, I think we're doing something right. You are a real piece of work. Patronizing, arrogant, self-centered and offensive. Get over yourself.

free will/sentience is also unnatural, doesnt make humans horrible monsters.

...well....not for that reason at least.

honor is unnatural.

just because something is unnatural, doesnt make it BAD (conversely just because something is natural doesnt make it good). In fact, considering the rampant increase in the human population and the rapidly diminishing resources homosexuality is more beneficial for the human race at this point than heterosexuality. Also, thanks for turning this into gay vs straight, totally helps both sides get along with each other and doesnt promote bigotry in the slightest....

dont worry, happens nearly everytime it involves groups of people. Seems to be a common flaw in people in general. The only way for people to accept other groups is for people to STOP thinking about themselves or others as a group, and to stop focusing on groups. the "gay olympics" is counter productive for acceptance, just like if there was a straight olympics.

 

[Carlos Storm]

1. The LGBTQ community ARE victims of a homophobic society. We ARE victims. Let's make that clear. We don't play victim, we are victims and are being victimized for who we are.

I know.

Everyone knows this.

I would argue that it's not as bad as some of the LGBTQ community makes it seem, but I have a feeling you'd disagree.

Also, don't pretend that there aren't a HUGE number of homosexuals, especially in the US, that don't see any real victimization for their entire lives aside from on the news. Sure they might get looked at funny sometimes, but who doesn't?

Everyone has their own problems... some WAY bigger than yours.

2. We want acceptance but we don't NEED acceptance from the ignorant.

And yet the ignorant are the ONLY people who don't accept you.

3. We ARE fucking fighting. We are fighting everywhere.

I said that SOME are not fighting. Some of you are running away and acting like problems go away when you DON'T face them.

Get real. It's not all about you, Tom. It's about fucking US. WE are going to take OUR days off from the shit people throw at us and if you don't like that, then do your job to make sure we aren't pushed to this point. Do your job to make sure we feel comfortable in our own skin at any time. Do your own fucking job, and stop blaming us for the shit we didn't create.

This is the problem.

YOU get real. There's WAY bigger problems for homosexuality right now, but some of you will go out of your way to make sure that the whole world knows that there's a GAY version of everything and that the Gay Olympics only exists because we're all assholes.

Look, I personally don't give a FUCK what anyone in the gay community does on it's spare time. I'm just saying that I think that this specific event is making things worse. You can disagree if you want, but don't jump down my throat for speaking my opinion in a thread that specifically asks for my opinion.

People around the world respect Rosa Parks because she was a strong person. She dealt with a shitload of abuse sitting on that bus, but she did it because she wanted the right to be the same as everyone else.

What if, after they let black people sit anywhere on the bus, a black person got up and said, "You're all jerks; I'm gonna start a bus for black people."?

Do you think anyone would respect them?

No. They would be a weak person. When you decide that you'd rather segregate yourself than fight through abuse, you're a weak person, and you've given up the fight.

The real problems... the ones that get masked in all this bullshit about name calling and stupid terminology... are the rights issues.

The rights issues need to be solved.

The Gay Olympics is a huge waste of time and a potential step backwards. It does nothing good for the gay community.

THERE'S ALREADY AN OLYMPICS THAT EVERYONE CAN BE IN.

And honestly, the Olympics are extremely open and there is NO prejudice towards any race, sexuality, or gender. As a matter of fact, the Olympics may be the SINGLE event that brings together the entire world in a beautiful, unbiased, happy competition where everyone can drop their prejudices and have a little bit of fun in this dark, depressing world.

And that's not good enough.

See the problem is... you think it's all about YOU. But it's not.

It's about all of us.

I.....Wow.....

I can not agree with this more, Very well put.

This is something that deserves repeating.

 

[Vareoth]

snip

First of all: This event is not barring anyone from entry. It is just geared towards a more open acceptance of alternate sexualities. Anyone can join.

Second: You said that people should stop thinking about themselves as different and just come together as one. This argument is simply not very realistic. It seems almost natural to have the desire to be around people of the same belief/sexuality/race/class ect. Humans can hardly be seen as one harmonious group of like minded individuals. People will always segregate themselves in groups of similar beings. It is somewhat tragic, but it's also the truth. Maybe the best thing we can hope for right now is acceptance and tolerance. And even that seems somewhat far fetched.

 

[Vareoth]

snip

I.....Wow.....

I can not agree with this more, Very well put.

This is something that deserves repeating.

It most certainly is not. He is calling people entitled because they think homosexuality is a big deal. Well hey, guess what: it is kind of a big deal to some people. Just because you are indifferent doesn't mean that everyone is. Mentality like this either stems from complete inexperience with the aforementioned issue or a tragic lack of empathy.

 

[Carlos Storm]

snip

I.....Wow.....

I can not agree with this more, Very well put.

This is something that deserves repeating.

It most certainly is not. He is calling people entitled because they think homosexuality is a big deal. Well hey, guess what: it is kind of a big deal to some people. Just because you are indifferent doesn't mean that everyone is. Mentality like this either stems from complete inexperience with the aforementioned issue or a tragic lack of empathy.

No, what he is saying is there already exists a place of acceptance for everyone(The Olympics), and that by further segregating yourself(The Gay Olympics) you're potentially undermining the progress that pro-gay activists have been fighting for decades to achieve.

"Being gay is a big deal to some people"
The same way being black is a big deal to others? your race or sexuality has 0 impact on who you are as a person. Just because there are some out there who will think less of you because of it, doesn't mean you should give in and allow their narrow-minded view to mold yours.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Maybe it's so that gay athletes who aren't quite good enough to compete in the proper Olympics get some exposure.

If that's the right word to...

...forget I said anything.

(Seriously though, I think it's stupid. There is nothing prevents gay athletes from participating in the Olympics or Paralympics where applicable, and if anything, it's discrimination to say 'this person can have a gold medal where someone else would not even have placed, because they happen to be homosexual'. Most Olympians who come fourth aren't gay, and neither are the first 3).

 

[Vareoth]

snip

I.....Wow.....

I can not agree with this more, Very well put.

This is something that deserves repeating.

It most certainly is not. He is calling people entitled because they think homosexuality is a big deal. Well hey, guess what: it is kind of a big deal to some people. Just because you are indifferent doesn't mean that everyone is. Mentality like this either stems from complete inexperience with the aforementioned issue or a tragic lack of empathy.

No, what he is saying is there already exists a place of acceptance for everyone(The Olympics), and that by further segregating yourself(The Gay Olympics) you're potentially undermining the progress that pro-gay activists have been fighting for decades to achieve.

"Being gay is a big deal to some people"
The same way being black is a big deal to others? your race or sexuality has 0 impact on who you are as a person. Just because there are some out there who will think less of you because of it, doesn't mean you should give in and allow their narrow-minded view to mold yours.

Sometimes simply ignoring bigots is not an option. Especially when those people are in any position of power. You are molded and shaped partially because the way society treats you. Being gay can most certainly have an effect on a person if he or she is discriminated as a result thereof.

Anyway, the event in question is accepting all people regardless of their orientation, so it's not really closing off the gay community to the outside world. It's more about creating a more open and friendly environment.

 

[Vareoth]

it's discrimination to say 'this person can have a gold medal where someone else would not even have placed, because they happen to be homosexual'.

That would be discrimination yes, if the event was only open to homosexual people, which it is not.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

See, what's with all the people saying "anyone can be in the Olympics"? Because to get into the Olympics, I'm fairly sure you have to be get onto your country's team first. So while the Olympics may be perfectly accepting of all, many of the countries involved aren't and potentially the host country isn't either.

Oh, and they're the Gay Games, not the Gay Olympics, for everyone who keeps repeating that. You know, Games, as in the Commonwealth Games. No one's trying to replace the Olympics. It's not like it's this or the Olympics, and those are your only options.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

it's discrimination to say 'this person can have a gold medal where someone else would not even have placed, because they happen to be homosexual'.

That would be discrimination yes, if the event was only open to homosexual people, which it is not.

When will I learn to do my research. In that case I think it's stupid to attach an arbitrary social problem to the Olympics and leave my case at that.

 

[jimhacker]

There are some people simply being idiots here but there are many who seem to be trying to understand other's points of view but just can't. Perhaps this will help:

Some people are asking "we're accepting of LGBT people now so why can't they get over it now and intergrate into culture instead of segregating themselves?".

Explaining this without resorting to buzzwords (which are meaningless unless you already understand their meaning and thus pointless when trying to explain something like this) like 'white male privilege', 'hetronormative culture' and 'intersectionality' is probably best done with an analogy that most people will probably understand.

When women started being accepted into the workplace, breaking down that barrier was only the first step. It was not simply being excluded that was the problem; once a woman was allowed into the office she was expected to conform to the existing office-culture. Now that sounds reasonable until you realise that the existing culture was not simply male-dominated but 'male-normative' (ie, it assumes that everyone was male) and that this meant that the women joining the workplace were expected to pretend to be male. Not by changing how they looked or anything, but simply by integrating into that culture. That in itself doesn't sound too bad: after all, they were being accepted into the office and weren't being discriminated against right? Anyone who didn't go along with it was seen as a trouble-maker feminist, waving their feminine identity flag in everyone else's faces. But when that culture included things like rating women's tits, bragging about sexual conquests while also 'slut-shaming', entertaining clients at strip-clubs, etc that was discriminatory and demeaning. This is a problem still being dealt with today, and not just in the third world. This stuff is still typical at legal, marketing, PR, and financial firms in places like New York, London and Washington, all supposedly progressive, liberal professions in progressive, liberal cities. You can't solve sexism by simply saying: we'll treat everyone the same with the same rules - so long as they integrate into the existing male culture. You have to change the dominant culture.

This is why a couple of LGBTQ activists are getting angry on here (and perhaps not phrasing their argument in the best way possible). In the UK and the more progressive areas of the USA things are at the stage of "we'll accept LGBTQ people on their own merits and treat them the same as everyone else - so long as they integrate into straight culture". Unfortunately tht leaves gay people in much the same situation as women integrating into sexist workplaces. There is latent homophobia in existing culture. And even where it isn't outright homophobia, there is a presumption that everyone is heterosexual (and thus 'normal') unless they are waving their flag. While the discrimination LGBTQ people face in culture is very different from that experienced by women in the work place, it is no less real. For homophobia to be a thing of the past we can't simply have LGBTQ people join straight communities on the proviso that they will accept hetero-normative culture and not try to bring their own culture with them, we need to bring both straight and LGBT culture together so that the dominant culture can evolve and change. That is what the activists are fighting for, ad I agre that it is worth fighting for, even if I often disagree with the manner in which they do it (being angry and rude on here does not make progress).

Other people have made all the points about this being founded decades ago, homophobia in sport, it being open to all, it being the 'gay games' rather than olympics etc and there's no point me reiterting them if those criticising just ignored all those posts already so i'll leave it at that.

 

[Silvanus]

I only recently signed up to the forums here, and genuinely thought people would be more open-minded.

Welcome. Sorry the as a whole tend to disappoint, but I think you will find this to be pretty common on the internet. It's the last place where people can whine about being persecuted by a minority without being laughed at.

*looks at Fox News*

Okay, next to last.

Thank you. I do get the impression a majority here are open-minded and tolerant, regardless.

"Being gay is a big deal to some people"
The same way being black is a big deal to others? your race or sexuality has 0 impact on who you are as a person. Just because there are some out there who will think less of you because of it, doesn't mean you should give in and allow their narrow-minded view to mold yours.

An very easy opinion to have. When those that think less of you include your parents, your family? When they include your co-workers, or the athletes you want to train and compete alongside?

You're seriously underestimating the damage that social stigma can do. Gay people have the right to expect the same level of dignity and respect that straight people take for granted every day, not to mention the same feeling of safety and security.

And when some try to attain this by creating a parallel (not competing) event specifically for the open-minded or allied, they're pilloried for it...?

 

[Floppertje]

"Being gay is a big deal to some people"
The same way being black is a big deal to others? your race or sexuality has 0 impact on who you are as a person. Just because there are some out there who will think less of you because of it, doesn't mean you should give in and allow their narrow-minded view to mold yours.

it most certainly does have an impact! do you honestly think gay people would've been exactly the same if they were heterosexual?
Let me put it this way. Anyone who has lived long enough to learn how to use their brain can tell you that what happens to you, changes you. And good thing too, because that's how we learn stuff. If you really think black and gay people (or women, for that matter) are treated the same way straight white men are treated, you are naive to the point of foolishness.

as for the whole gay olympics thing... if they want to have their own party (to which everyone, including YOU, is invited), who the hell are you to say they can't or shouldn't? it doesn't influence you in the slightest, so how are you even involved? yes, you have the right to your opinion. the rest of the world has the right to ignore you.

 

[baker80]

God, stop bitching already, you people. You're like those assholes who complain that there's no "white history" month. Gays are a community. If they want to have their own parades and sports festivals then it's their goddamn right to have them, just as much as a city can host a sports competition only for local residents.

 

[Vareoth]

There are some people simply being idiots here but there are many who seem to be trying to understand other's points of view but just can't. Perhaps this will help:

Some people are asking "we're accepting of LGBT people now so why can't they get over it now and intergrate into culture instead of segregating themselves?".

Explaining this without resorting to buzzwords (which are meaningless unless you already understand their meaning and thus pointless when trying to explain something like this) like 'white male privilege', 'hetronormative culture' and 'intersectionality' is probably best done with an analogy that most people will probably understand.

When women started being accepted into the workplace, breaking down that barrier was only the first step. It was not simply being excluded that was the problem; once a woman was allowed into the office she was expected to conform to the existing office-culture. Now that sounds reasonable until you realise that the existing culture was not simply male-dominated but 'male-normative' (ie, it assumes that everyone was male) and that this meant that the women joining the workplace were expected to pretend to be male. Not by changing how they looked or anything, but simply by integrating into that culture. That in itself doesn't sound too bad: after all, they were being accepted into the office and weren't being discriminated against right? Anyone who didn't go along with it was seen as a trouble-maker feminist, waving their feminine identity flag in everyone else's faces. But when that culture included things like rating women's tits, bragging about sexual conquests while also 'slut-shaming', entertaining clients at strip-clubs, etc that was discriminatory and demeaning. This is a problem still being dealt with today, and not just in the third world. This stuff is still typical at legal, marketing, PR, and financial firms in places like New York, London and Washington, all supposedly progressive, liberal professions in progressive, liberal cities. You can't solve sexism by simply saying: we'll treat everyone the same with the same rules - so long as they integrate into the existing male culture. You have to change the dominant culture.

This is why a couple of LGBTQ activists are getting angry on here (and perhaps not phrasing their argument in the best way possible). In the UK and the more progressive areas of the USA things are at the stage of "we'll accept LGBTQ people on their own merits and treat them the same as everyone else - so long as they integrate into straight culture". Unfortunately tht leaves gay people in much the same situation as women integrating into sexist workplaces. There is latent homophobia in existing culture. And even where it isn't outright homophobia, there is a presumption that everyone is heterosexual (and thus 'normal') unless they are waving their flag. While the discrimination LGBTQ people face in culture is very different from that experienced by women in the work place, it is no less real. For homophobia to be a thing of the past we can't simply have LGBTQ people join straight communities on the proviso that they will accept hetero-normative culture and not try to bring their own culture with them, we need to bring both straight and LGBT culture together so that the dominant culture can evolve and change. That is what the activists are fighting for, ad I agre that it is worth fighting for, even if I often disagree with the manner in which they do it (being angry and rude on here does not make progress).

Other people have made all the points about this being founded decades ago, homophobia in sport, it being open to all, it being the 'gay games' rather than olympics etc and there's no point me reiterting them if those criticising just ignored all those posts already so i'll leave it at that.

That's one hell of a first post there buddy. My hat is off to you (if I wore a hat).

And maybe I should be less aggressive when debating this with people. But that is somewhat difficult when being presented with insulting statements, even if they originate not from malice but ignorance.

Or maybe I'm just a little crybaby. Who knows anymore?