Gay Relationships

[poundingmetal74]

I know this probably isn't what you meant but while the [I/]"its not a choice"[/I] argument would be important for some people too accept themselves,at some point weather or not its [I/]"a choice"[/I] becomes utterly irrelevant

it doesn't matter if its a choice or not, by emphasising the lack of choice you're buying into the idea that its "wrong" on some level

there ARE challenges that aren't Bourne from bigotry, that's for sure BUT there's also some cool stuff about being gay and or "gay culture" [sub/]and bad but that's just people for you[/sub]

everything else...its not the gays who have the problem

You're right, that isn't the point I was making But the one you raise is a valid one, and I really hope eventually society arrives at a point where being gay is akin to being left handed. You're not good or bad, normal or weird, it's just how you are.

The whole "it isn't a choice" thing has less to do with being gay is "wrong" and more to do with letting people know you're not gay "for the attention" or something along those lines. I'm gay because there's something in my brain (and brain scans back this up - check out a Norweigan doc called Brainwash) that makes me attracted to other males.

Your last line I've said to several gay youth: It's not you who has the problem, it's the ignorant people who have a problem.

 

[The Choke]

As a bisexual who has been in plenty of same-sex relationships, I clearly have no problem with them. On the subject of polygamy, I have no problem with it for others but recognize a feral jealousy in me that would not mix well with it in one of my own relationships, though some of my more casual relationships have had a "just use protection and be discreet," rule set on both of us. None of those ended badly, but they also didn't progress past a point of easy pick up dinner, fool around, watch Daily Show, go to bed kind of way. We always parted on good terms, but it was generally just that we would both lose interest and stop calling each other.

I've noticed some people saying that they had "no problem" with gay relationships as long as it's not thrown in their face, i.e. as long as the people in question doesn't act "too gay" or "flamboyant" which I think is both ridiculous and offensive. If the bible said, instead of homosexuality, that writing with your left hand was a sin, how would you expect left-handed people to "hide" it in public? Wobbly-signatures on card-readers at the grocery store? Purposefully limiting their potential in sports? Thinking every second of every day about what hand they're using to reach for something and whether or not somebody is watching them do the most mundane and natural things?

It's unreasonable and uncomfortable. If you think seeing two men sharing a kiss makes you uncomfortable, imagine how they must feel when a spontaneous display of affection for someone that they love earns the glare/stare/weird look/judgment of some asshole stranger who feels that the entire world needs to conform to their comfort zone. It is exhausting to worry about maintaining a "public" persona on top of your true one. While I have known plenty of homosexuals who DON'T speak with a lisp, I don't consider them "normal" just like I don't consider a homosexual who does speak with a lisp to be "the norm" either. Like people who are left-handed, it turns out gay people (...some of whom are left handed. This metaphor is starting to stretch thin.) may be interested in anything from sports to interior design, construction to brain surgery, cooking to painting, and while their left-handedness is a part of their every day, it is an unconscious part that has very little to do with whether or not they're interested in sports, cooking, painting, etc.

However, if you start telling them to maybe "tone down the left-handedness a little bit," suddenly every time they reach for a ball or a paintbrush or a scalpel in a way that feels natural to them, they have to worry about whether or not they're being too left-handed.

How utterly miserable.

Clearly, this is not a perfect metaphor. But when people start complaining to me about the "gay lisp" or how they're not homophobic, they just "don't want it shoved in their face," I am always left to imagine if people have thought about how unreasonable this is by framing it differently in their head. Are we fine with interracial relationships as long as they don't throw it in our faces and 'tone it down' and 'think about what parents might have to say to their children about it'? Are we fine with ultra-feminine women who genuinely enjoy wearing make-up and dresses, or would we like them to tone it down? Are we fine with NOT ultra-femme women who DON'T enjoy wearing make-up and dresses, or do we want them to tone that Weirdy Weirdness That Makes You Weird And Different From Me down?

I understand that many people feel like they want to be allies but still have discomfort that they need to address, but placing the burden of your comfort on someone who has already probably been asked to be more "normal" (therefor being told that they're ABNORMAL) by self-absorbed though probably well-meaning people is a little selfish. As gamers, we often make a big deal about how 'geeks' get othered in high school for dressing differently or being interested in different things. It always surprises me when people are unable to apply that experience to another similar one and find empathy.

 

[Ramzal]

I don't really care about relationships outside of my own. I've got enough problems/baggage to deal with without trying to deal with other peoples problems/baggage. A relationship is a relationship. Being in a straight relationship doesn't make it better/lesser/more special than a gay relationship. Being in a gay relationship doesn't make it better/lesser/more special than a straight relationship. In other words, I simply don't care as long as no one is being hurt in a relationship. Good to whoever is happy in their relationship.

 

[kickyourass]

My opinion on Same Sex relationships is, they exist. Seriously, in my mind homosexuality has gotten so mundane that I barely notice anymore. Actual issues connected to it I feel quite strongly about, such as getting such relationships legally recognized, showing support for LGBT individuals when issues related to that come up (Because some people just suck), that sort of thing I care about. But being LGBT, or any other such preference or leaning or whatever, in and of itself is just one of those things where I have genuine difficulty communicating the full extent of my emotional neutrality.

 

[kingthrall]

@ San Martin If Christs sacrifice erased the old testament then I could interpret that also as a way of committing harm for example to people as a good thing because its open to interpretation. Rules are Rules, I am not at all religious but you can not select some rules and pretend others do not exist.

Yes you made a point about it being not only a religious ceremony. The vast majority its used as a religious term and yes its nice to see you actually know what your talking about, though I do think the whole interpretation thing I completely disagree with you.


Not going to bother posting further to this comment, I got warned for no legit reason other than having an opinion. If calling someone daft is that offensive then its political correctness gone mad. Obviously no reason talking to leprechauns as im just following a never ending rainbow here. Whoever wants to ruin a debate obviously can not handle different opinions.

@ cathou look up what rite means. I dont know why your strung up on me using the word holy, but i was coming from a relgious/bible point of view if doing a marriage.

 

[JarinArenos]

Not going to bother posting further to this comment, I got warned for no legit reason other than having an opinion. If calling someone daft is that offensive then its political correctness gone mad. Obviously no reason talking to leprechauns as im just following a never ending rainbow here. Whoever wants to ruin a debate obviously can not handle different opinions.

The irony of you posting "Rules are Rules" then saying this is... well, let's just call it amusing. Personal attacks are personal attacks, and distinctly outlined in the rules of this forum.

My take on the issue... it stops being a "matter of opinion" when you're pushing that opinion on others. I've not seen a single argument against gay marriage or relationships that doesn't fall back eventually on either "god said it" or "it makes me feel icky" (and most often it's the latter masquerading as the former). Neither of which is something you should base modern laws around.

 

[Vault101]

I've noticed some people saying that they had "no problem" with gay relationships as long as it's not thrown in their face, i.e. as long as the people in question doesn't act "too gay" or "flamboyant" which I think is both ridiculous and offensive. If the bible said, instead of homosexuality, that writing with your left hand was a sin, how would you expect left-handed people to "hide" it in public? Wobbly-signatures on card-readers at the grocery store? Purposefully limiting their potential in sports? Thinking every second of every day about what hand they're using to reach for something and whether or not somebody is watching them do the most mundane and natural things?

the irony is that heterosexuality from the "male gaze" gets shoved in our faces WAAAAAAAAAY more than anything remotely gay...its kind of funny if it wasn't so infuriating

 

[Ten Foot Bunny]

Like people who are left-handed, it turns out gay people (...some of whom are left handed. This metaphor is starting to stretch thin.) may be interested in anything from sports to interior design, construction to brain surgery, cooking to painting, and while their left-handedness is a part of their every day, it is an unconscious part that has very little to do with whether or not they're interested in sports, cooking, painting, etc.

However, if you start telling them to maybe "tone down the left-handedness a little bit," suddenly every time they reach for a ball or a paintbrush or a scalpel in a way that feels natural to them, they have to worry about whether or not they're being too left-handed.

How utterly miserable.

Clearly, this is not a perfect metaphor.

As a left-handed lesbian, I think that was a PERFECT metaphor! It's like how I once had a gym teacher who hated me and kept sabotaging my ability to participate, making sure that lefty gear went "missing" when I was in class. Since I couldn't do anything right-handed to save my life, the teacher kept failing me on everything, then gave me a D when the semester was done so that I didn't have to retake the class.

Point is, I couldn't "do" right-handed any more than I can "do" straight, which is why I thought your metaphor was brilliant.

 

[Saltyk]

So, if I'm straight because that simply how I am, why would someone go against that and choose to be gay? Especially considering how difficult that sort of life can be. And I realized that a person wouldn't choose that.

The Onion had a great article called something like "baby chooses to be gay," which perfectly sums up this point you made. Indeed a lot of gay people would not choose to be attracted to the same gender and make many aspects of our lives more difficult. But we are. And possibly as early as life in the womb, that switch to being attracted to the same gender is already set.

I know this probably isn't what you meant but while the [I/]"its not a choice"[/I] argument would be important for some people too accept themselves,at some point weather or not its [I/]"a choice"[/I] becomes utterly irrelevant

it doesn't matter if its a choice or not, by emphasising the lack of choice you're buying into the idea that its "wrong" on some level

there ARE challenges that aren't Bourne from bigotry, that's for sure BUT there's also some cool stuff about being gay and or "gay culture" [sub/]and bad but that's just people for you[/sub]

everything else...its not the gays who have the problem

First off. I only brought up the idea of being gay as a choice to reject the concept. Because I rejected the concept. And I only even thought of it as it is often brought up by those who decry others for being gay. Being gay is no more a choice than being white, black, or Hispanic. I had thought that my original post had made that clear.

Second, I never implied that anything was wrong. I stated that I struggled to understand it as I can't really comprehend being attracted to a fellow male. And that I saw a similar situation of a person who couldn't understand an attraction to fellow women. I was trying to understand it, but frankly I can't understand it, and that's fine. I do accept that people are gay and that's it's natural. It was never a question of right or wrong. Something else I thought came through in my original post.

Third, I never implied that gay people did have a problem. I certainly wouldn't do that considering one of my best friends is bisexual and currently dating a really cool guy that I happen to like. Nor did I ever state what sort of challenges gay people face as I was certain that people would already be well versed in those challenges. However, one that was in my mind when writing that was the issues of their family not accepting them. Fathers and mothers who can't accept their children are gay.

Allow me to restate this. I sat down to try to understand how and why someone could be gay. Upon realizing that I couldn't understand it, I changed my thoughts to explain how and why I am straight as I do understand that. Upon realizing that I just am, I realized that gay people were just gay and that's how they are. And that there is nothing wrong with that.

By the way, this whole process took me about five minutes. And I have fully accepted gay, bisexual, and even transgender as being natural even if I don't personally understand it ever since.

And for the record. If anyone were to hurt my friend, they would have to deal with me. He's my friend. And I accept him for who he is. No questions asked. I may not understand his attractions, but that's not really any different than friends being attracted to girls that I don't find attractive for all intents and purposes.

 

[Vault101]

snip.

I think you misunderstood what I meant

I didn't mean to imply that YOU thought any of these things (no, looking at "why am I straight?" is a good starting point for understanding)

I was mostly using your [sub/]and the other posters[/sub] mention of the fact as a jumping off point to question the idea of "its n ot a choice"

of course it isn't a conscious choice and of course its one of the fundamental defenses of Homosexuality

buuuuut I feel sometimes its framed as a kind of..a "requirement" to have that subtle self loathing [i/]"I REALLY wish I could be stright but I'm not being gay sucks! why would this be a choice?[/i]

again I'm not saying your saying these things

its just that if we truly did belive there was "nothing wrong" with being gay then weather or not it was a choice would be irrelevant

on the flipside however framing it as "as much of a choice as being straight" <- is probably a lot more helpful and positive

 

[The Choke]

the irony is that heterosexuality from the "male gaze" gets shoved in our faces WAAAAAAAAAY more than anything remotely gay...its kind of funny if it wasn't so infuriating

I think what many of these uncomfortable straight people are discussing when they bring up homosexuality being in their face is their fear that their boundaries will not be respected. Coming from a lot of men, this is almost funny to me! But in a "welcome to my world where jerkwads play grabass at the bus stop, creeps constantly come up and ask me 'where is your husband, are you alone?' to the point where I keep one knife loose in the roll so I can whip it out if necessary when I'm going to and from work, and some assholes like to respond to the information that I'm bi with propositions for threeways and saying they'd be cool with just watching me and my significant other during our most intimate lovemaking as though our sexual desire for each other was there simply to serve as jerk material for, well, a jerk."

Still, I don't go around assuming every straight guy I meet is a horny jerk who is going to try to feel me up. I just worry about it because it happens A LOT. On the other hand, with threats of violence and the chance that the cop who arrives on the scene is going to be homophobic, how many gay people want to take the risk? I'm sure there's some, but the numbers seem like they'd have to be much, much lower.

As a left-handed lesbian, I think that was a PERFECT metaphor! It's like how I once had a gym teacher who hated me and kept sabotaging my ability to participate, making sure that lefty gear went "missing" when I was in class. Since I couldn't do anything right-handed to save my life, the teacher kept failing me on everything, then gave me a D when the semester was done so that I didn't have to retake the class.

And this is why I am so happy that my gym teacher was a gruff-but-soft-hearted lesbian with a pet cocker spaniel that followed her around everywhere. When she saw the way the other students, especially the football players in my gym class, were treating me during team sports, she set me up doing solo weight training and acted as my personal trainer. She knew there was nothing she could do about those kids being jerks, but she could offer me a positive gym experience so that I didn't turn my back on all of it forever because of some bad emotional experiences in high school. =)

Thanks, by the by. The "left-handed" metaphor is one I wrote furiously about a year ago in response to someone telling me they had no problem with gay people, they just wanted them to "stop shoving it in my face." My response was pretty overwrought and furious, putting forward a narrative of a young man needing to hide his left-handedness in order to fit in, but discovering at night when he was alone that he could paint the most beautiful pictures in the world with his left hand. Upon showing the pictures to his parents, they break down and beg to know why he's doing this to them and refuses to just be right-handed like everyone else. I tried to push the metaphor into extreme ridiculousness, subbing in left-handedness for experiences of my friends and lovers- people whose parents put them into "pray the gay away" camps when they were in high school, or who kicked them out of the house and onto the streets, or who simply turn their back on them entirely for simply being honest.

The consequences of showing your "left-handedness" can be pretty extreme for a lot of people. I was fortunate to have very loving and accepting parents, but I know this isn't always the case for people. That's another reason it so bothers me when people tell them to "tone it down" because they're being themselves often in the face of huge backlash from family members and co-workers, so getting it from a stranger, too... I'm just like, "shut the hell up, you guys. Seriously, you WOULD have an idea what this would be like if you'd just stop and think about it for a minute."

 

[Trippy Turtle]

I'm fine with it and think that they should be treated as any other couple.

However, I still don't like the idea of gay marriage. Nothing against them and I'm not even religious but in the end Marriage is a religious practice and most religions do not agree with gay marriage.
Just as the religious people shouldn't be allowed to force their religion and beliefs onto others, gay couples shouldn't force what is against their beliefs onto them.
A legal agreement that gives you all the benefits of marriage? Sure. But go make your own religion if you want a traditional church wedding.
It just never sat well with me how gay couples could force their beliefs onto others as far as marriage goes with nobody batting an eye, but the church sticking to their beliefs and not even forcing others to stick to them is seen as cruel.
I personally think that being against gay people is pretty backwards, but not as backwards as forcing your ideals onto others, even it they are the popular ideals of the time.

 

[Vault101]

I think what many of these uncomfortable straight people are discussing when they bring up homosexuality being in their face is their fear that their boundaries will not be respected. Coming from a lot of men, this is almost funny to me! But in a "welcome to my world where jerkwads play grabass at the bus stop, creeps constantly come up and ask me 'where is your husband, are you alone?' to the point where I keep one knife loose in the roll so I can whip it out if necessary when I'm going to and from work

[i/]oh youre afraid of gay men? hahaha oh silly straight guys, we deal with that all the time[/i]

but yeah its one of those funny/maddening double standards. There is an interesting theory that homophbia from straight males to gay males is a result of misogyny

[quote/]and some assholes like to respond to the information that I'm bi with propositions for threeways and saying they'd be cool with just watching me and my significant other during our most intimate lovemaking as though our sexual desire for each other was there simply to serve as jerk material for, well, a jerk."
[/quote]
Bisexuality!(tm) as approved by hetero guys!

I was daydreaming about online dating (not that I'd ever do it anytime soon) and weather or not I would set my profile to "bi" but figured it would be more trouble than its worth

to a lot of people "Bi" doesn't seem to mean "attracted to both genders" so much as [i/]promiscuous/confused/kinky/prone to infidelity/exhibitionist/up for anything/seriously ANYTHING/a phase/experimenting/will leave you for a guy[/i]

when did it get so complicated?

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

I'm fine with it and think that they should be treated as any other couple.

However, I still don't like the idea of gay marriage. Nothing against them and I'm not even religious but in the end Marriage is a religious practice and most religions do not agree with gay marriage.
Just as the religious people shouldn't be allowed to force their religion and beliefs onto others, gay couples shouldn't force what is against their beliefs onto them.
A legal agreement that gives you all the benefits of marriage? Sure. But go make your own religion if you want a traditional church wedding.
It just never sat well with me how gay couples could force their beliefs onto others as far as marriage goes with nobody batting an eye, but the church sticking to their beliefs and not even forcing others to stick to them is seen as cruel.
I personally think that being against gay people is pretty backwards, but not as backwards as forcing your ideals onto others, even it they are the popular ideals of the time.

But marriage as a institution in most western nations is legal matter, not religious. It takes a license signed by a civil servant that makes two people a couple with all the legal benefits; getting married by a pries without state approval isn't enough. Religions can't and won't be forced to change their beliefs because they don't have any impact on the topic, and there are those that do practice same-sex marriage anyway.

 

[Trippy Turtle]

I'm fine with it and think that they should be treated as any other couple.

However, I still don't like the idea of gay marriage. Nothing against them and I'm not even religious but in the end Marriage is a religious practice and most religions do not agree with gay marriage.
Just as the religious people shouldn't be allowed to force their religion and beliefs onto others, gay couples shouldn't force what is against their beliefs onto them.
A legal agreement that gives you all the benefits of marriage? Sure. But go make your own religion if you want a traditional church wedding.
It just never sat well with me how gay couples could force their beliefs onto others as far as marriage goes with nobody batting an eye, but the church sticking to their beliefs and not even forcing others to stick to them is seen as cruel.
I personally think that being against gay people is pretty backwards, but not as backwards as forcing your ideals onto others, even it they are the popular ideals of the time.

But marriage as a institution in most western nations is legal matter, not religious. It takes a license signed by a civil servant that makes two people a couple with all the legal benefits; getting married by a pries without state approval isn't enough. Religions can't and won't be forced to change their beliefs because they don't have any impact on the topic, and there are those that do practice same-sex marriage anyway.

I was talking purely marriage in the religious sense because its often debated over here at least. Makes all pro-gay people look bad when some person starts demanding christians or similar accept gay marriage in their churches.

 

[username sucks]

Believe it or not, gay people exist and are often shunned by society, and in many places aren't equal under the law. I fail to see anything wrong with discussing a topic that is relevant to the issues of society today.

I'd like to ask you why this thread's existance bothers you so much.

its because a lot of people [sub/](of a certain demographic *cough*)[/sub] operate under the assumption that things that appeal to or relate to "them" are the standard of "normal"

anything that deviates from "normal" is not important/irrelevant/should be put in its own little space so "normal" people don't have to think about it

its essentially "defaulting" and the source of a lot of stupid shit on the internet [sub/](like a certain movement *cough*)[/sub]

Oh, I know. I was asking a question I already knew the answer to in an attempt to prove a point. But that mindset you described is most definitely NOT just from one demographic or movement... not that you said it was, but oh boy I've met all different kinds of people who think like that.

EDIT: I just accidentally flagged my own post. Have mercy, moderators!

 

[FirstNameLastName]

I'm fine with it and think that they should be treated as any other couple.

However, I still don't like the idea of gay marriage. Nothing against them and I'm not even religious but in the end Marriage is a religious practice and most religions do not agree with gay marriage.
Just as the religious people shouldn't be allowed to force their religion and beliefs onto others, gay couples shouldn't force what is against their beliefs onto them.
A legal agreement that gives you all the benefits of marriage? Sure. But go make your own religion if you want a traditional church wedding.
It just never sat well with me how gay couples could force their beliefs onto others as far as marriage goes with nobody batting an eye, but the church sticking to their beliefs and not even forcing others to stick to them is seen as cruel.
I personally think that being against gay people is pretty backwards, but not as backwards as forcing your ideals onto others, even it they are the popular ideals of the time.

But marriage as a institution in most western nations is legal matter, not religious. It takes a license signed by a civil servant that makes two people a couple with all the legal benefits; getting married by a pries without state approval isn't enough. Religions can't and won't be forced to change their beliefs because they don't have any impact on the topic, and there are those that do practice same-sex marriage anyway.

I was talking purely marriage in the religious sense because its often debated over here at least. Makes all pro-gay people look bad when some person starts demanding christians or similar accept gay marriage in their churches.

I've seen plenty of over zealous social justice types, but I have quite literally never seen nor heard anyone demand that churches be forced to perform same sex marriages. Not denying the existence of people with such opinions, I have seen people argue so many ridiculous things that I know there are definitely some people out there with this belief. But this just seems a strange thing to bring up.

 

[Halla Burrica]

Homosexuality? I don't really care where people put their dicks or vaginas (as long as the parties are old enough and it's consensual).

 

[kingthrall]

Not going to bother posting further to this comment, I got warned for no legit reason other than having an opinion. If calling someone daft is that offensive then its political correctness gone mad. Obviously no reason talking to leprechauns as im just following a never ending rainbow here. Whoever wants to ruin a debate obviously can not handle different opinions.

The irony of you posting "Rules are Rules" then saying this is... well, let's just call it amusing. Personal attacks are personal attacks, and distinctly outlined in the rules of this forum.

My take on the issue... it stops being a "matter of opinion" when you're pushing that opinion on others. I've not seen a single argument against gay marriage or relationships that doesn't fall back eventually on either "god said it" or "it makes me feel icky" (and most often it's the latter masquerading as the former). Neither of which is something you should base modern laws around.

Honestly you could call me a bigot, racist, homophobic ect. I honestly wouldn't care so long as you expect me to reply in the same manner and not cry about it like 12 year old children. Daft is not offensive considering the previous lecure on defintions agaist me, go look it up.

Secondly i'm not against gays, read my first post in case anyone who reads this is wondering. I just think holding a marriage in a church being performed by people who's beliefs are against it which may or not feel that it risks their souls (because its what they believe) should not be forced to perform said rites of marriage. That doesn't mean some sort of law contract can't be made out to say a couple is a legitimate union.

 

[Ramzal]

Not going to bother posting further to this comment, I got warned for no legit reason other than having an opinion. If calling someone daft is that offensive then its political correctness gone mad. Obviously no reason talking to leprechauns as im just following a never ending rainbow here. Whoever wants to ruin a debate obviously can not handle different opinions.

The irony of you posting "Rules are Rules" then saying this is... well, let's just call it amusing. Personal attacks are personal attacks, and distinctly outlined in the rules of this forum.

My take on the issue... it stops being a "matter of opinion" when you're pushing that opinion on others. I've not seen a single argument against gay marriage or relationships that doesn't fall back eventually on either "god said it" or "it makes me feel icky" (and most often it's the latter masquerading as the former). Neither of which is something you should base modern laws around.

Honestly you could call me a bigot, racist, homophobic ect. I honestly wouldn't care so long as you expect me to reply in the same manner and not cry about it like 12 year old children. Daft is not offensive considering the previous lecure on defintions agaist me, go look it up.

Secondly i'm not against gays, read my first post in case anyone who reads this is wondering. I just think holding a marriage in a church being performed by people who's beliefs are against it which may or not feel that it risks their souls (because its what they believe) should not be forced to perform said rites of marriage. That doesn't mean some sort of law contract can't be made out to say a couple is a legitimate union.

Not to nit pick but not all gays are against Christianity, there are even those who are Christians under what it is SUPPOSED to be and that's being Christ-like as opposed to following a mistranslated book that's debatable in it's actual age.