Gearbox: Not All that Glitters is Gold

vasiD

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So with Colonial Marines out and causing a massive stink (no comment here, I've only played a few disappointing looking moments, this post is more about critical reaction than personal), I've really started to reexamine Gearbox.

There major releases at this point are the now legendarily terrible Duke Nukem Forever, and the Borderlands series. I'm not here to go on a rant about DNF, and won't bother to, the Metacritic speaks for it's self at this point. I would however like to call into question the gaming communities love of Borderlands.

There was so much hype with borderlands it was hard not to get excited and into it at first, and playing it with friends is a good deal of fun (though not without it's frustration)... But really shouldn't any game be fun when you can play it with another person? Shouldn't that be just a default "duh" sort of moment, when it comes to multiplayer? I mean there aren't many things that wouldn't become absurdly fun with four of your friends, let alone a 60 dollar piece of entertainment.

So, what do you think? Is Borderlands still that great of a game if it can't be enjoyed singleplayer?
And if it isn't that great of a game, then why all the hoopla about Gearbox? How do you feel about the company at this point?
 

shrekfan246

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I thought Borderlands (and its sequel) were all right, but nothing to really get worked up over. The shooting mechanics were pretty fun, but the RPG mechanics actively work against them in single-player and I'm one of those lonely bastards who never played the games with anybody else.

To give the benefit of the doubt to Gearbox, Duke Nukem Forever and Aliens: Colonial Marines were both just development train-wrecks from the start. For all the enthusiasm I lack for the Borderlands franchise, they're still extremely solid games with a really fun sense of humor and a great artistic aesthetic.
 

aguspal

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..Except borderlands is fully enjoyable in Single Player. Both 1 and 2. Or hey, at least I think so. I personally like it even more than Co-op, go figure.
 

tippy2k2

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The "it's always fun with multiple people" argument holds no water. If that were the case...

Spec-Ops: The Line multi-player would be awesome
Homefront multi-player would be awesome
Kane and Lynch 2 would be awesome
Medal of Honor Doorfighter [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/miracle-of-sound/6466-Medal-of-Honor-Doorfighter] multi-player would be awesome
...can I stop yet?

The point is that a great multi-player game is much harder to pull off than you would think. Adding a "now with multiple players!!!" does not make a shitty game good. Borderlands is a good game. It may not be good to you but that doesn't make it bad.

As to the single versus multi-player, I always thought that the line of thinking of "Single player or GTFO" is such a silly line of thinking. Games can be designed to be played exclusively with multiple people...no Yahtzee, that does not make them bad games.

I do agree that Gearbox is an over-rated developer but that doesn't make their good games bad.

*Note: I played Borderlands 1 and that's it from this gen of Gearbox. I found it...alright or good at best.
 

Windcaler

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As i recall borderlands was designed to be the anti-CoD FPS that consumers wanted so desperately at the time. They did a crap PC port but that was really my only complaint about the game. Everything else was either mediocre or actually good. To give credit where credit is due the PC port of Borderlands 2 was everything I could have asked for and a bit more. So on that basis I think when gearbox realizes they screw up they try to put the work in to make ammends

Now with DNF, lets be honest. That game was blasted by professional reviewers because of the ultra long development time not because of its actual state. It got scores that are reserved for broken and buggy games, not for mediocre ones.The game itself was medicore at best and the first Duke nukem title I ever played but even I could tell it had clear problems as it tried to be to much like other popular FPS instead of just being itself.

With the release of Jims latest video i think thats whats going on with A:CM too. I understand where Jims coming from saying that the demo was a lie and for once I agree with him but the issue is we didnt get to play the demo. However as I look at various reviews I feel like Im looking at the next DNF fiasco. I havnt played the game but judging on lets plays I think critics are abusing their positions because they were lied to and not judging the game on its own merits

Gearbox most certainly should be charged with false advertising but I think people are blowing this out of proportion at the same time. Some fingers need to be pointed at critics so they know this kind of stuff isnt acceptable. Judge a game on its merits and dont mark it down because of your problem with a demo and/or development times. A critics job is to inform the consumer and by saying its bad because they were lied to is going against what it means to be a critic

Specifically talking about gearbox I think they need a kick in the butt. They have some questionable business practices (what company doesnt these days?) that need to be stamped out. I wont say theyre a bad developer but I know I wouldnt call them a good one either. Hopefully this makes them reexamine what theyre doing and make a more consumer friendly business model
 

Auron

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Brothers in Arms was pretty good and I liked Aliens(sue me.) arguably because I didn't see the hyped demo but anyway...


Borderlands is a great game, don't see the problem with it favouring multiplayer many other great games do including some of my favourite genres like RTS.

Diablo is best enjoyed with other people, is it bad because of that? Every Unreal Tournament and Quake 3/live had no meaningful singleplayer at all, they're major classics, and goes on the list.
 

vasiD

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tippy2k2 said:
The "it's always fun with multiple people" argument holds no water. If that were the case...

Spec-Ops: The Line multi-player would be awesome
Homefront multi-player would be awesome
Kane and Lynch 2 would be awesome
Medal of Honor Doorfighter [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/miracle-of-sound/6466-Medal-of-Honor-Doorfighter] multi-player would be awesome
...can I stop yet?

The point is that a great multi-player game is much harder to pull off than you would think. Adding a "now with multiple players!!!" does not make a shitty game good. Borderlands is a good game. It may not be good to you but that doesn't make it bad.

As to the single versus multi-player, I always thought that the line of thinking of "Single player or GTFO" is such a silly line of thinking. Games can be designed to be played exclusively with multiple people...no Yahtzee, that does not make them bad games.

I do agree that Gearbox is an over-rated developer but that doesn't make their good games bad.
Fair enough. And to be fair I am I huge fan of Fighting Games which essentially exist only to be played against others (however, I do oddly enjoy playing them single player as well), but it is reasonable to say that Borderlands just rubbed me the wrong way single player and isn't that bad.

That said, I still would say that if a game with a multiplayer mode built in isn't fun then there is something wrong with the game. Not that every game would be good multiplayer, just that if you've built a whole system for it it had better be fun or you're doing something seriously wrong, after all, all of the games you listed are generally shit, except of course Spec Ops, which is built on a a pretty shitty and un-fun system and wouldn't be so beloved did it not have such a great story (also one could say Spec Ops tired, repetitive, somewhat painful system was another layer to the storytelling. Hell maybe even the bad multiplayer was as well, the final nail in the "war is hell" coffin, haha.)
 

vasiD

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Auron said:
Brothers in Arms was pretty good and I liked Aliens(sue me.) arguably because I didn't see the hyped demo but anyway...


Borderlands is a great game, don't see the problem with it favouring multiplayer many other great games do including some of my favourite genres like RTS.

Diablo is best enjoyed with other people, is it bad because of that? Every Unreal Tournament and Quake 3/live had no meaningful singleplayer at all, they're major classics, and goes on the list.
True, and I do play a good deal of Battlefield but I'd never touch single player. That said I don't think that's the same sort of experience. Hopping into an online game with random people who you only intend to either shoot in the face or use for a distraction while you flank someone is one thing, but embarking on a long adventure with random people can end poorly. What I'm saying is Borderlands strikes me as a wholly different kind of experience to classics like Battlefield, Unreal, or Quake.

Borderlands is a co-op, and as such should be compared with other co-op games. At the moment there aren't a ton of experiences like that but the big comparison I can think of, Left4Dead, is still an enjoyable single player experience as well. So, What I'm saying is that pvp multiplayer can be designed just for that and I'll have no problems, it's when it's a co-op campaign that isn't fun single player then I have to call it in to question. I mean if it's not a good campaign alone is it still good? I played through Fallout Brotherhood of Steel with a friend and it was a blast, even though (and mostly because) that game is garbage.

That said, if there are a few people who can enjoy Borderlands single player, then I suppose it likely just rubbed me the wrong way. Strange though, as I love RPGs, and love a good FPS... It just struck me that Borderlands felt like a middle of the road endless grind against a series of similar enemies with little to no story driving it all forward, just that weird MMO logic of "bigger numbers".
 

Trollhoffer

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I'm trying to find a word for Borderlands that isn't "tripe", but I'm coming up blank. Because to me, that describes it perfectly -- it's got nothing in particular to offer, but fails to be offensive in any particular sense. It's a game made of nothingness and, in a mechanical sense, plays like a completely cynical cash grab at popular mechanics only exceeded by Dead Island. Adding RPG mechanics to shooters isn't something I'm against, but games like Deus Ex and Stalker pull that off wonderfully while Borderlands shoehorns in the tired and boring skill tree archetype popularised by dull and clinical MMORPGS. It also uses a Diablo-like loot system -- you know, poring through a bunch of loot drops to see if there's a weapon a couple of points more damaging than your current one.

There's no systematic personality there. I'll concede that the art is somewhat distinctive and the game has a good sense of humour, but what it doesn't have is strong qualities of endearment concerning its core gameplay systems. Although these are all RPG mechanics. The shooting mechanics in Borderlands aren't bad, but there's nothing distinctive or attractive about them, either. Many years ago, Medal of Honour and Call of Duty had already mastered the same essential gameplay system. It's a shame, because the last few years have been good for RPGs -- The Witcher 1 & 2, both Souls games by FromSoftware, Persona in spades, Fire Emblem: Awakening just came out, the latest Deus Ex had a reasonably robust set of RPG mechanics and I've no doubt missed a few. RPG mechanics are being introduced into just about every genre these days, and for the most part, I think that's perfectly reasonable from both a design and gameplay perspective.

So I was always surprised when Borderlands garnered a significant amount of attention, moreso when it got a sequel and even moreso when so many gaming publications cared so much. I understand that mine isn't the only opinion out there and for some, the ground Borderland covers provides them with a fun experience. But such an overwhelmingly positive reaction to such a confused, ill-considered and mediocre game had me looking twice.

With all that in mind, I'm not surprised Aliens: Colonial Marines wasn't a stellar game. What did surprise me, however, is how poorly it was handled. From a business perspective, having one's hands on the Alien IP is more or less a godsend that guarantees sales. Perhaps this was Gearbox's perspective, and they would rely on that to make the game profitable while putting actual work into Borderlands and Duke Nukem. But we all know what happened to Duke, and I've discussed my grievances with Borderlands above. All the same, it's a disgusting betrayal of consumer trust in a product, not to mention an awful use of an excellent IP.

Perhaps Gearbox were once a good developer, but that was many years ago. From where I'm standing, Gearbox haven't put out a clever, memorable, well-constructed game for this entire generation, yet consumers continue to throw money at them. No business is entirely fair, but the way gaming consumerism works has been a thorn in the side of developers and consumers alike for much longer than this generation alone. I'd love for publishers (particularly the bigger ones) to change their ways and allow for more creative, passionate projects to flourish with some degree of financial security, but the gaming business isn't run by people who care. It's run by suits for whom a game is a product on the level of detergent or pillow cases, if more profitable. So that leaves it up to us to be more conscientious as consumers and to reward not only the products that are inoffensive and more or less fun, but to reward especially the products that really exceed our expectations.

Here's a simple, easy way to help, if only a little bit: be a diverse gamer. Rather than being a "shooter guy", an "RPG player" or a "strategist", we should try to diversify our gaming palettes and reward products that do well in their genre rather than buying such a large range of games in the same genre (as many of us do). Rather than buying that second FPS, try something else and buy a strategy game that garnered positive reception. If you like RPGs and spend a lot of time in Skyrim, why not try out a JRPG? You might find something to enjoy in Monster Hunter or Persona. This is a win/win situation. I know from experience this doesn't always pan out and there's always the chance of buying a dud, but this kind of diversification could lead to the discovery of things you didn't even know you liked, and you spread your money more evenly around the games industry. We don't all have the privilege of putting down $60 on a "risky game", but then again, it doesn't have to be $60. Dig through the bargain bin, or get something off Steam, especially during a sale. The point is that we ought to be trying to open our minds to different ways of handling mechanics and narrative in games. And perhaps then we'll find that we reward mediocrity much less and put money into the developers that do well by us -- rather than the ones that just give us the "safe" purchase.
 

Limecake

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vasiD said:
There major releases at this point are the now legendarily terrible Duke Nukem Forever, and the Borderlands series. I'm not here to go on a rant about DNF, and won't bother to, the Metacritic speaks for it's self at this point.
I agree that gearbox isn't exactly making me a fan with their releases lately I just can't put too much stock into Metacritic, most users there only have an account to 'bomb' games they don't like.

But to get back on topic I'll admit Borderlands 2 was disappointing since it felt like a large DLC pack instead of a true sequel. DNF wasn't a big disappointment for me but that was because I never expected it to be good after it's infamous developement period and the entire IP being transferred over to gearbox, although if they really loved the IP they would have probably scrapped the whole thing and started over from scratch.

Can't really say much about the new aliens game, the Aliens games never interested me a whole lot so I haven't seen anything on the new game.
 

Saviordd1

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I think that hopefully this will wake up everyone to what I already noticed

Gearbox is a sub-par developer who makes a living making bad decisions as well as stealing from people and being rather unfunny.
 

Saviordd1

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Trollhoffer said:
Finally, someone who actually has a fucking brain!!!



I'm glad that I'm not the only one in the universe who sees Borderlands for what it is.

And by the way, the artstyle loses points because they stole it from an indie movie part and parcel.
 

Jedi-Hunter4

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vasiD said:
I've really started to reexamine Gearbox.

There major releases at this point are the now legendarily terrible Duke Nukem Forever, and the Borderlands series. I'm not here to go on a rant about DNF, and won't bother to, the Metacritic speaks for it's self at this point. I would however like to call into question the gaming communities love of Borderlands.

......

So, what do you think? Is Borderlands still that great of a game if it can't be enjoyed singleplayer?
And if it isn't that great of a game, then why all the hoopla about Gearbox? How do you feel about the company at this point?
Sorry to go off topic a little I never get why (not necessarily your self to an extreme) when bad game, or a game that is below par for it's IP comes out, people are screaming to damnation that that developer is rubbish, it's over for them, nobody buy their games, they don't care about gamers, when nobody at all does this in other forms of media or products in general.

Take film production company's.
New line cinema made Lord of the Rings, Blade, The 1st rush hour, The mask, the Texas chainsaw masacare (back when it was a new idea). High impacting, profitable films across decades and genre's.

But they also made, Mortal Kombat: Annihilation, Sex and the City 2, Ghosts of Girlfriends Past, Final Destination 3.

The 1st tanked critically made a disappointing amount of money, the 2nd speaks for it's self, 3rd reviews low even for a romcom, and the 4th a franchise being flogged long after the inventive new IP has lost it's appeal and self respect.

But when those film's out did anyone start pulling their hair out screaming "what are new line doing, they care not for us mere mortals and our money!!!". Same goes for car manufacturer's, music labels, clothing makers all walks of life. These company's are very large in general. People don't seem to get that, they may have a few projects on the go at the same time, the people who made that game you HATED may not even work on a project you are interested in for 2-3 years and even then they may not be working with that guy they couldn't communicate with on the last project an so on.

If a publisher is producing consistently crap, or consistently good, I get people making assumptions, but it gamers as a group I don't get changing their opinion like the wind.
 

vasiD

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Jedi-Hunter4 said:
vasiD said:
I've really started to reexamine Gearbox.

There major releases at this point are the now legendarily terrible Duke Nukem Forever, and the Borderlands series. I'm not here to go on a rant about DNF, and won't bother to, the Metacritic speaks for it's self at this point. I would however like to call into question the gaming communities love of Borderlands.

......

So, what do you think? Is Borderlands still that great of a game if it can't be enjoyed singleplayer?
And if it isn't that great of a game, then why all the hoopla about Gearbox? How do you feel about the company at this point?
Sorry to go off topic a little I never get why (not necessarily your self to an extreme) when bad game, or a game that is below par for it's IP comes out, people are screaming to damnation that that developer is rubbish, it's over for them, nobody buy their games, they don't care about gamers, when nobody at all does this in other forms of media or products in general.

Take film production company's.
New line cinema made Lord of the Rings, Blade, The 1st rush hour, The mask, the Texas chainsaw masacare (back when it was a new idea). High impacting, profitable films across decades and genre's.

But they also made, Mortal Kombat: Annihilation, Sex and the City 2, Ghosts of Girlfriends Past, Final Destination 3.

The 1st tanked critically made a disappointing amount of money, the 2nd speaks for it's self, 3rd reviews low even for a romcom, and the 4th a franchise being flogged long after the inventive new IP has lost it's appeal and self respect.

But when those film's out did anyone start pulling their hair out screaming "what are new line doing, they care not for us mere mortals and our money!!!". Same goes for car manufacturer's, music labels, clothing makers all walks of life. These company's are very large in general. People don't seem to get that, they may have a few projects on the go at the same time, the people who made that game you HATED may not even work on a project you are interested in for 2-3 years and even then they may not be working with that guy they couldn't communicate with on the last project an so on.

If a publisher is producing consistently crap, or consistently good, I get people making assumptions, but it gamers as a group I don't get changing their opinion like the wind.
You're blurring the lines between publishers and developers. Easy mistake to make (They like to blur those lines too).

Publishers publish a product, putting up the money and making the hard copies from the finished code, also taking in the lions share of the profit.

Developers create the code, crafting the actual game.

Publishers are usually massive companies that are basically too massive to fail baring continued bad investments (Oh hey THQ).

Developers are just teams of people, usually working from game to game, sometimes they do well, but the wind turns wrong and they could still be yesterdays news.

In this example, to clarify, Gearbox developed the code and is the Developer, where as Sega published the product and distributed it while paying Gearbox to make it and are the publishers.

The problem with your comparison to the film industry is that New Line is the equivalent to a Publisher, just taking the finished film and distributing it with their deep pockets while another smaller company makes the film (hence the second logo you see at the start or end of a lot of big studio films). These companies, like large video game publishers, are usually not too worried on the cash front as their making so much profit over all from their many fingers being in many pies, however if the smaller film companies give them an underperforming product they are in just as much danger as the software developers of being cut off from their job flow and eventually being shut down.

Hope that explains why everyone gets like this after a company puts out a few bad games. That said, I'm normally not like that, that's sort of the point of this whole post; I'm saying Gearbox has always been a mediocre developer that got lucky.

Mainly I'm just not a Gearbox fan so I wanted to see if there were any on these forums who can either agree or disagree to give me a bigger view of the thing. Mind you I'm only interested as I was pretty excited at that early demo (which is now very clearly forged) and have always been an Aliens fan (So much so I've used samples in a few songs I've produced), so I want to know what went wrong and if I should from now on just expect Gearbox to botch any franchise I care about to prevent further disappointment.
 

Jedi-Hunter4

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vasiD said:
Sorry for the ambiguity in my post, very late should get to sleep soon. Yer I get the difference, to be fair, I've seen it placed upon both publishers and developers with gamers, I mean I know EA develops a load of it's own games but it is almost universally panned for anything it's label touches if it's bad, whether they developed it or not.

But yer I do get that the new line thing is closer to a publisher. To be fair I think allot of people could do with reading your clarification, there's been one too many people who seem to think the same team make Battlefield and Madden...

I thought the reviews were a bit harsh for what it is, but on this site by user's I have been reminded of these "demo's" and what people where promised, now I realize why people are so looking for their pound of flesh. They really really really do deserve a tonne of hate heaped on them for either knowingly or actively allowing such a level of false advertising. The footage of the "work in progress" looking stunning an then compared to a high end gaming pc running the finished copy are just stunning, I don't know how it can be done but pre-orders deserve their money back.
 

VanQ

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Trollhoffer said:
Oh wow, I like you. Your post is fantastic. Why the hell aren't you writing articles for gaming publications? Oh right, because you're probably not willing to take money to give every bland FPS a 9/10.
 

WoW Killer

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Must we really describe every developer as a simple good/bad? I shouldn't have to reevaluate games that I liked (Borderlands) just because the same studio puts out a game that I don't like. There were already questions over Gearbox' consistency due to their involvement with Duke Nukem Forever. Meh.