Gears of Mass Effect

hyperdrachen

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Yeah incoming wall of text if you don't want my properly explained response you are of course welcome to scroll down.

ME2 is more challenging that ME1 hands down, insanity mode was a walk in the park since you brought your busted specter gear with you to each new game in ME1. As far as the puzzles go ME1 had a few KoToR style real puzzles, but past that it was a bunch of quick time events, no matter what you were cracking open, seriously just playing insta simon says. Bypass and Hack were elegant, and less bland looking, they had a bit of roleplay sense to them. Pull your rose tinted glasses off, I loved ME1 but ME2 is what happens when hard working professionals update thier formula. Lets itemize the differences.

Gear: In ME1 the "lore" behind the items differences is theyre from different manufacturers. Some manufactures are weaker or stronger in different stats. In reality most of it was garbage, there were hundreds of items but only about 2 from each tier/catagory were worth using. Once you got the First set of spectre guns, you spent the time until you got the second set throwing everything away. Finding a decent piece of Quarian armor was a pain in the padded ass. Now I like designing my character, fine tuning gear and stats, but that wasn't going down on the gear end in ME1 I was just rifling through armors and weapons to find the one that was superior on all 3 stats. The best stuff wasnt even arguable, one item having 5 more shield points but 0 biotic defense. ME2 took alot of the irritating, fuss with your inventory cause its full out of it. Instead lending gear improvements to steady mostly linear Improvements. The choices mainly came down to, what do i wanna blow the resources on now. I don't see that this is really easier from a thought and planning perspective, Its more clean and less annoying. I want to battle enemies and enjoy the story/dialogue, not play cleanup on my inventory, go back and play ME1 remind yourself what it was like. I do miss the individual Upgrade slots for ammo and stabalizers but in the combat system of ME2 they dont really have a place.

Stats:Yes no arguing that ME2 has a much thinner batch of skills, but again lets look at ME1 with our rose tinted glasses removed. Alot of those stats played out like filler, mere point sinks you were obligated to in order to hold your weapon steady for more than 1 shot. They didnt offer some creative depth for rounding out your tactics, they were simply "choose the weapons you want to actually be able to use." Besides, shepard is some badass in the alliance military, I'm gonna assume some proficiency with all weapon types. They took all the electronic skills out of the game in ME2, meaning you could always open container X or hack turret Y even if you didn't bring Tali. Now this is a legitamate step away from more pure pen/pad style RPGing. I understand if some feal something missing here moreso when it changed a situation, not so much when in just opened a crate of more crappy weapons. Just about every Skill in ME2 translates to a pivotal turn in the battle used properly, minus Barrier and Geth Shield boost(good skills but more defense isnt really a big tactical question). Weapons choice itself had almost no tactical depth in ME1, if your character was proficient with Assualt Rifles that would pretty much clean up any problem they threw at you. The enemies always know where you are so sniper rifles were a bit lackluster, they worked but most of the time so did the assault rifle, or pistol for that matter. The shotgun seemed to be the only weapon that had a time and place for it, everything else was pretty much good to go, point and shoot, target range/type really don't mean much. The 4 or 5 class related skills that you got in ME1 got wrapped into a single slot named after your class in ME2, usually increases in the shield and weapon damage department or tech, biotics, where applicable, I don't really see that this is anything but a streamline, less fussy, provides same effect to enjoy the game. Further more skills in ME2 often gain new porperities as they increase in rank, instead of just adding 2 more percent to whatever bonus, most of those 12 levels of a skill were devoid of any real point other than to spend your way to the next tier of the ability on that list ME2 just took the filler out instead of splitting one real upgrade into 5 pieces.

Skills: Global Cooldown in ME2 yes, but cooldowns in ME2 are 3-12seconds there are a couple slower ones if i recall but for the most part theyre pretty quick to come back. Yeah you could hammer out 5 skills in a row in ME1 on seperate cooldown timers then blow your adrenaline burst and do it once more.... then you hid behind cover for 1-2min depending on skills til you could do it again. ME2's system makes more roleplay sense usually anyway. Oh you can throw a warp a throw a lift and a barrier up, but a couple throws in a row is too much for your brain huh? In ME2 you can play it on the pause wheel but I had alot more fun belting out my skills in concert with my gunplay in real time for the most part since I got 3 hotkeys for skills instead of one. From a tactical standpoint there are far more on the fly choices, due to the global cooldown, and that weapons actually do diffrent stuff well. Slow shooters pop the armor rapid fire pops the shields and barrier, on the fly ammo switching, and seperating the defense characteristics of barrier and shield, and then adding armor made for alot more on the battlefield decision making. Skills and Weapon Type choice have far more tactical depth in ME2 than in 1 and each weapon is nescessary on the higher difficulties, though Assualt rifles are still quite boss. Yeah you can just hide behind cover and belt away rounds and usually win in either game, but failing to keep a good survey of the battle and letting a close range get in on you in ME2 is a death sentence, in ME1 all mistakes can be fixed with Push, or if you were not a biotic, they could be fixed with hp and assault rifle to the face.

The storytelling is stellar in both games, the animations in ME2 have gotten a bit more natural and characters gestures are usually a bit less exagerated but this is where ME2 properly inherits daddy's genes. There are some genuine Opinion based enjoyment differences here but fussing with gear, the wonky grenades button and all, no dedicated melee button, half a wall of shallow stats and the 30 extra levels to feed them are not real depth. They've increased the apeal of the game but refining some of its components, its not dumbing it down. Your not "smarter" that people who don't want to spend 20minuts looking at menus to find the obvious gear choice. I'm not addressing those of you that miss the more traditional elements that didn't make the cut like the mentioned hacking skill trees. I'm addressing the pretentious whiners who are gonna bash what is a Gold Star, Game of the Year, mirror sheen finished product cause they think the game got dilluted, when it actually got distilled, there is far more pure story/character development, combat, and system to this game, with less filler, in the gear and stat department. The explorable areas are more unique instead of a 50 bumpy fields with the same damn base on em. There were a few good mako planets but mostly they were pretty repetative reruns. On the counter, scanning for resources not so hot. Tip for anyone playing, don't bother with planets that don't read rich, theres plenty of them for your resource needs and its faster to stick to those, do that and it doesnt even take that long to get what you need, oh and get the scanner upgrade for the ship.

But like I said I love both games, and I'm happy that the devs have the imagination and work ethic to belt out a more refined product and make changes that fit the theme of the setting. Future gun combat doesnt feal right backed by the stat system of a Jedi from our magical past future.
 

Chris Sharka

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Feb 15, 2010
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Referring to this section of your post:
hyperdrachen said:
It's all well and good to minimize and simplify the amount of skills you can choose, but when Barrier, Fortification, and Geth Shield Boost all have the exact same ability (okay, Geth Shield boost is slightly different than the other two: You can choose +10% weapon damage or + 100% shields at rank 4 rather than + 300% duration or +100% shields at rank 4) -- and all of them similar to a class ability -- something is *wrong* with it. I can't make a Soldier use something similar to singularity, why should an Adept get to use something similar to Tech Armor? Sentinels should at least be able to stack the bonuses. That's my only real complaint with them "simplifying" the system. I felt all the other advanced powers were, mostly, unique enough from basic or class specific skills. Shredder Ammo did more damage to health than say disruptor ammo (and to both organics and synthetics), but wasn't able to go through shields nearly as fast.

Referring to this section of your post:
hyperdrachen said:
Skills: Global Cooldown in ME2
I like global cooldowns, though I was annoyed with them in ME2. I feel that a global cooldown was a wise move, but I don't think that throwing up my Barrier, if I'm an Adept, should make me worthless outside tearing through enemies with my SMG until that 12 second cooldown has ended.

If in ME2 it were a static 3, or so, second global cooldown with individual, slightly longer, power cooldowns I'd have much preferred it and not felt as though Adepts were as bad as they were in this game.

For the entirety of my game on insanity I had Warp on my right bumper and Unity on my left. On the rare occasion, when I remembered, I did use Pull.
 

CloakedOne

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I'm pretty sure "role playing" means "Playing a role" as in portraying a character. Forgive games for trying to get more toward character immersion and less toward mathematics.
dreadedcandiru99 said:
Cody211282 said:
I don't think just having a levling system makes an RPG, its the ability to interact with other characters in the game that makes it...I play Mass Effect for the story and characters, plus the fact they made the combat so much better is nothing but a plus for me.
THIS.

The last time I checked, the "RP" part of "RPG" stood for "role-playing"--you know, like that stuff you do with the dialogue wheel and the characters with the talky bits. Personally, I've never given a crap about endlessly futzing around with spreadsheets or comparing this +15 Magical Spork of Awesomeness with that +17 Shiny Pickaxe of Demonrape. No, the simpler that stuff is, the better, and frankly, my ideal RPG wouldn't bother me with any numbers at all. Isn't that the main benefit of making electronic RPGs in the first place: that we can focus on the story while the computer deals with the number-crunching?
THESE! I'm pretty sure "role playing" means "Playing a role" as in portraying a character. Forgive games for trying to get more toward character immersion and less toward mathematics.
 

Blackbird71

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May 22, 2009
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Eclectic Dreck said:
The question is, are the trappings truly necessay? Afterall, any video game, even if one removes any of the familiar RPG systems, maintains a system of it's own - rules that define the ways the player can interact with the world. The only thing one loses in most games is that their characters do not advance with distinct "ding" moments. While most action games (say half-life) the character does gradually become more powerful in general thanks to the ever increasing arsenal they possess, and the skill the character portreys is instead that which the player develops. Often, by removing extraneous rules and systems, the player has more freedom to do what they want and are no longer bound by arbitray constraints born from a pen and paper world where the rulebook is often only consulted as an arbiter of disputes.
I would anser that yes, those "trappings" as you call them are very necessary, and are at the heart of the RPG experience. Don't misunderstand me, the story, dialog options, and choices that make a difference are a vital part as well, but they are two sides of the same coin, you need both elements to be an RPG.

It's not about the "ding" moments, or gradually increasing in power. Rather, it is about having a set of characteristics that define the character you play. Why is this important? Because you're not just playing a role during conversations, but also during combat, puzzle solving, and everything else in the game. In order to truly play a role, you have to solve those situations using the skills of the character you are playing, not your own. This is why true RPG combat is decided by the number-crunching, it's a simulation of the abilities of your role. Once you introduce "twitch-based" combat, you have made the player's physical skills and reflexes a factor in the game, rather than the abilities of the role, and as such you no longer play a role in combat, you're just being yourself. When you make the game a shooter, you've removed the "role-playing" from one major aspect of the game, and therefore lose a lot of ground in being able to argue the game as being an RPG.

Of course, this is not to say that such a game isn't perfectly enjoyable. I've seen a few successful hybrids of the two genres, and they can be quite fun. They're fine games, but they aren't pure RPGs. Understand that puting reflex-based actions into a game removes just as much (if not more) of the role-playing aspect from a game as giving it a linear plot with zero choice or character development does. If you've only got one or the other, then you're still only role-playing during half of the game, and stepping out of the role for the rest.
 

JoeBloggs

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I like the Hardcore Incredible Depth Fallout/Baldurs Gate RPG vs. Corridor Shooter with Dialogue debate here, but I think it's probably worth throwing in something: ME 1 was never actually any deeper than ME 2, really.

Yeah, it had a huge amount of guns and armour and junk you picked up, but all of it was only marginally different. It still had the same classes to choose, and they were exactly as different/depthy as ME2's classes are. You still couldn't do any of:

It didn't matter if I wanted a character who could pick locks, charm her way out of situations, decrypt complicated compute systems and hit a bullseye from 100m away. The game gave me all that ability, then told me 'All you need to do is make yourself better at fighting.
THIS cool stuff in ME 1 either. Sure, you could be a Hacker, but that didn't actually make one jot of difference to the game outside of combat. (Being able to open certain crates doesn't count). ME 1 had complexity, yeah, overwhelming inventory-jamming complexity, but it never REALLY had any more RPG depth than the sequel: ME 2 just makes it more apparent.

So basically, let's not set ME 1 up as some pinaccle of hardcore RPG gaming that was dumbed down for the masses. Whatever direction you want ME 3 to go in from here -I personally would love customizable abilities that work OUTSIDE combat, like have the infiltrator able to break in to places (Always loved picking those locks in fallout 2)- I think we can agree that ME 2's an improvement.

Edit: Whoops, failed to read the text-wall up there that already made these points. Sorry, HyperDrachen.

EDIT EDIT: Aaaand, refixed quote box. Whoops.
 

Jenova65

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JoeBloggs said:
I like the Hardcore Incredible Depth Fallout/Baldurs Gate RPG vs. Corridor Shooter with Dialogue debate here, but I think it's probably worth throwing in something: ME 1 was never actually any deeper than ME 2, really.

Yeah, it had a huge amount of guns and armour and junk you picked up, but all of it was only marginally different. It still had the same classes to choose, and they were exactly as different/depthy as ME2's classes are. You still couldn't do any of:

Jenova65 said:
It didn't matter if I wanted a character who could pick locks, charm her way out of situations, decrypt complicated compute systems and hit a bullseye from 100m away. The game gave me all that ability, then told me 'All you need to do is make yourself better at fighting.
THIS cool stuff in ME 1 either. Sure, you could be a Hacker, but that didn't actually make one jot of difference to the game outside of combat. (Being able to open certain crates doesn't count). ME 1 had complexity, yeah, overwhelming inventory-jamming complexity, but it never REALLY had any more RPG depth than the sequel: ME 2 just makes it more apparent.

So basically, let's not set ME 1 up as some pinaccle of hardcore RPG gaming that was dumbed down for the masses. Whatever direction you want ME 3 to go in from here -I personally would love customizable abilities that work OUTSIDE combat, like have the infiltrator able to break in to places (Always loved picking those locks in fallout 2)- I think we can agree that ME 2's an improvement.

Edit: Whoops, failed to read the text-wall up there that already made these points. Ah well.
Don't mean to nit pick, but I am fairly sure *I* didn't say this ^ Dude!
 

Demiath

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Mar 12, 2009
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Some may worry that the success of ME2 means the final victory of shooters and the death of hardcore RPGs, but I actually think it's the other way around. Heavily stats-based RPGs like Dragon Age, Demon's Souls, Strange Journey or Drakensang (to take four very different examples on various platforms) are still released and offer a drastically different experience than Bioware's latest release, but do "pure" action games like Gears of War and Uncharted 2 really have what it takes to compete with a fully-fledged action adventure/RPG hybrid like Mass Effect 2? The actual shooter gameplay in all three games is very similar but only ME2 includes story-related interactivity and in-depth dialogue scenes which flesh out the characters and immerse the player fully in the game world. As much as I loved Uncharted 2 when I played it last year there is a real danger that games which don't give the player any meaningful opportunities to influence the story or get truly attached to the characters will simply feel unambitious and obsolete in a post-ME2 world.

So rather than fear for the future of hardcore RPGs, I think it's the likes of Cliff Bleszinski and Hennig who should worry. Can they adapt to this new story-heavy and interactivity-oriented shooter paradigm being established by Bioware?

(On a side note, thanks to HyperDrachen for doing such a great job at pushing back against the shallow and pretentious "dumbed down" interpretation of ME2).
 

omnibus01

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This is the now classic debate over what constitutes a shooter, and what defines an RPG. ME2 is a superior game in all respects if you like the combat, and a less satisfying game if you like inventory management and careful level-ups, etc. ME2 is a hybrid, like many other new games such as Borderlands. I consider ME2 to be a shooter with RPG elements. I thought that ME was an RPG with broken shooter elements. The problem is trying to adapt old school RPG elements into a game with a lot of necessary shooting---they don't mesh very well. I have played all of the KOTOR series, Jade Empire, and Dragon Age: Origins, as well as Neverwinter Nights, and enjoyed them all a lot. I didn't take to ME very well, and didn't really like Fallout 3, as well as I liked Morrowind and Oblivion, for example.

I think that when shooting is the default combat instead of stabbing or hacking, the classic Bioware or Bethesda RPG template begins to crack a bit. The 'shooter-looter' or 'shooter/RPG' is a new and upcoming game classification which fits a game like ME2 pretty well. I personally find I really enjoy these hybrids a lot, as I love shooters as well as RPGs. The combination is true enjoyment for me.

Simplifying is not 'dumbing down' or we would still like using MS-DOS and Basic instead of Unix and C++. I don't doubt that some decisions may well have been made with the console's simpler controlls in mind, but that is a business decision based on sales and the continuing threat of piracy, etc. as well as the more expedited programing for consoles with their static hardware and OS's.

I have 3 computers [with games on all of them] but find myself primarily a console player due to the extreme simplicity of the process -- turn it on and play. Of course, there is no way to effectively mod a game in the same way that a PC user can, but I will pay that small price for the convenience and comfort.

Now if only MS made a reliable 360...
 

GL2814E

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Feb 16, 2010
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You sir, have said everything I could've and done so much more clearly. I whole-heartedly agree.