Gender Equality and Dating

[Susan Arendt]

... although gender equality has been virtually stabilised in the workplace and the western world...

Yeahhhhhh, that's so utterly not true. But to answer your actual question, boys are still being raised to be chivalrous towards girls, and girls are still being raised that men should take the lead. These are both holdover behaviors from times when females weren't expected to be anything more than wives and mothers. There are far too many women who expect a man to pay their bills, because they view themselves as a prize to be won. Similarly, many men feel emasculated by a woman trying to take an equal role in the relationship - I know few men who would be comfortable with their wife or girlfriend earning more than them, for example.

It will take a very, very long time for these traditions to work their way out of our culture, because people would have to want them out of our culture first. And many simply don't. Many people, both male and female, view the traditional gender roles as the "correct" way a relationship should be. (That is, the man is the provider, the woman is the nurturer.)

 

[emeraldrafael]

two how it is usually the man's role to pay for said dates.

Go Dutch, its not that uncommon nowadays, especially in rough economic times.

As for the rest, there's still alot of Gender inequality in the world outside dating. Why is it more wrong for a man to hit a woman and people immediately think abuse yet a woman can hit a man and people think its self defense? Why are women less likely to be fired, just cause a company has to fill its gender quota?

 

[siddif]

As far is my history goes I usually get the first few meals and then we work out something from there (depending who has more disposable income and how close we get) but it usually either toggles between each of us paying for the meal or we 50/50 split everything.

As for the asking I have done this most times (and been rejected a few too) and rarely been asked but I don't mind too much it just can be hard to get the courage to do the asking.

 

[funguy2121]

I had a discussion with a few friends of mine about how, although gender equality has been virtually stabilised in the workplace and the western world (with one or two mishaps here and there, i.e. sports) how come then has it not trickled into the dating scene?

Two prime examples kept popping up; one being how it is usually the man's role to ask the woman out on a date and make most of the moves required to progress and two how it is usually the man's role to pay for said dates.

What do you, the members of the Escapist think about these topics? and how would you change them if you could?

I've only had a male perspective on this so female viewpoints are highly recommended.

*Also a quick side-note to ask for some help: There's a really cute girl who works at the grocery store across from my house and I want to ask her out on a date, although she lives in my town I only ever see her at the store she works in, I never see her on a night out or generally around town. Any advice would be appreciated, thanks.

Regarding the girl: go for it, be yourself, try a little creativity but not too much, and ignore all other advice regardless of the source. Who cares if that's the only place you see her? If you can get her laughing or flirting or even talking then your foot's in the door. At the very least it's step 1 toward getting over it, not to mention practice. At best you'll get a first date!

What you were talking about is really the realm of gender roles and expectations and is largely different from workplace scenarios where legality is much more concerned. If you don't like traditional relationships then be outspoken about it and you'll meet a girl who agrees with you - though this seriously narrows possibilities and you'll still have to weed out the crazies and opportunists. It's what I do, 'cos I simply can't be happy with a 'normal,' quiet, shy, demur girl.

 

[Paksenarrion]

Date your own gender, problem solved. Also, you're dealing with expectations which are a tricky thing. I know a lot of women who won't turn down a free meal but wouldn't be put off by having to go Dutch. There are also several of these expectations of women. Who is still usually expected to raise children? Who is still expected to cook and clean? Sure these aren't 100%, but neither are yours. There are still plenty of women out there who either work a full job, then come home to cook and clean, or give up their careers to raise a child.

My $.016. (Points for the feminist reference)

I wish I didn't get the reference. <_< Damn that glass ceiling.

Anyhoo, I believe Carl Sagan said it best:

In essence, if you want women to be more aggressive and chase men, you must first reinvent the currently accepted social expectation that women must wait for men to make the first move.

Show more movies of women trying to ask men out.
Have more rap songs about how women be rollin' in men and dough.
Write more stories where men are just there, waiting for a dashing woman to rescue them from a life of ennui.
...etc.
???
Profit.

 

[tommythegun]

Hey dude!

I work for a large retail bank who on the surface would certainly *seem* to be a modern, egalitarian sort of place to work. The regional manager who is responsible for most of the hiring told a colleague over lunch that he'd not give a job to a girl he wouldn't want to screw. On the other hand, I've seen females flash a bit of cleavage at a sucker manager/customer or use a bit of strategic sexually suggestive body language to get some kind of desired result.

I don't think the workplace has changed as much as you imply and neither has the dating scene. It's just got a bit more sophisticated, and maybe a bit more complicated and ambiguous for men who are now expected to simultaneously exhibit positive female gender traits (sensitivity, use of moisturiser) whilst retaining the best male ones (physical protector, provider), and the flexibility to know when to switch between modes. Ultimately I think think 'pure' equality of the sexes is an idealistic concept.This is not right or wrong, but an expression of our biological imperatives. Cultural norms will dissolve, reinvent themselves, mingle and transcend, but always as an expression of our different biological natures interacting with a changing environment.

Regards to the girl at the store: Do you think she'd be comfortable being asked on a date by a customer, because currently that's your relationship with her. Maybe, maybe not. You don't want to put her in a position where she might think you're cute but she says no because she doesn't feel safe going on a date with somebody she doesn't know well. She might panic and say no, simply out of fear of the unknown. If on the other hand you have good rapport and she is showing positive signs, and seems game, just go for it. It really depends on the girl and how she perceives you. If its a bit ambiguous, maybe dilute the risk she is taking with you by finding out where she socialises with her friends and going with a group yourself. It won't put either of you under the spotlight so much!

 

[Dags90]

I think that "rule" originated because men are typically more interested in sexual activity than women, and any given person is more likely to say yes to go on a date with someone they're only slightly interested in if asked than they are to actually ask that person out.

Historically it would've bee considered aggressive and mannish for a woman to initiate a relationship. Such women were usually painted in a negative light as were the men with them. I also don't think women want sex or intimacy less than men. They're just told if they actively pursue it, they're considered sluts. They don't want sex less, they just don't want to be seen wanting sex.

 

[kurupt87]

If she expects me to pay, I refuse.

If she tries to force herself paying, I forcibly pay.

If she proposes going dutch, I accept.

Yes, I can be an arse.

Yes, I have also not been on many 2nd dates.

 

[EmpressZombiKitty]

I had a discussion with a few friends of mine about how, although gender equality has been virtually stabilised in the workplace and the western world (with one or two mishaps here and there, i.e. sports) how come then has it not trickled into the dating scene?

It's called a double standard. Most woman still want to be courted. Most men still want to "win" the girl. It is embedded in our culture, and its embedded in our genes

As much as people want to say men and woman are the same, they are not. They are equal in value (well...maybe women slightly edge us out), but they are not the same.

Hey, speak for yourself. It's not embedded in my genes. I don't feel the need to "win" the girl. Quite the opposite.

Ha Ha. You know, that makes me think of something my boyfriend said to me. See, I was the one to initiate the interaction between us. I asked him out on a date, but I waited for him to ask me to be his steady girlfriend, though.

A year some later (and I don't know how we got on the subject) he said to me "You know, only thing I that I missed out on in the beginning of out relationship was the great feeling that I charmed you and won you myself."

I offered to break up with him so he could try again if he liked. We just laughed it off.

Oh, and we pay back and forth all the time. It was like that in the beginning to. He paid date one, I paid the second. So forth and so on.

 

[Jonluw]

I think that "rule" originated because men are typically more interested in sexual activity than women, and any given person is more likely to say yes to go on a date with someone they're only slightly interested in if asked than they are to actually ask that person out.

Historically it would've bee considered aggressive and mannish for a woman to initiate a relationship. Such women were usually painted in a negative light as were the men with them. I also don't think women want sex or intimacy less than men. They're just told if they actively pursue it, they're considered sluts. They don't want sex less, they just don't want to be seen wanting sex.

Personally, I think there are more than enough reason to believe men are biologically more sexually "agressive" than women and always have been.

i.e. I go with nature, you go with nurture.
The problem with nurture the way I see it, is that the societal norms have to have originated for some reason.

 

[Zaik]

Because they only want equality when it's convenient to them.

There's a ton of other incidences of the same thing, absolutely no reproductive rights for men, rapes, sexual harassment/assault, and abuse against men by women mostly ignored(both legally and otherwise), media portraying all men as dumb fat retards obsessed with sports, I can go on all day.

"Feminists" claim to be clamoring for sex/gender equality, but they more or less only intervene when it's a possible threat to them. More often than not, they're on ghost hunts, jumping at shadows and calling them evidence of sexism.

 

[Merkavar]

i think both genders should ask people out and who ever does the asking should pay for the first date etc.

 

[Dags90]

Show more movies of women trying to ask men out.
Have more rap songs about how women be rollin' in men and dough.
Write more stories where men are just there, waiting for a dashing woman to rescue them from a life of ennui.
...etc.
???
Profit.

Spoiler: So the solution is listening to more Khia? I can get down with that.

 

[Mikeyfell]

I had a discussion with a few friends of mine about how, although gender equality has been virtually stabilised in the workplace and the western world (with one or two mishaps here and there, i.e. sports) how come then has it not trickled into the dating scene?

Two prime examples kept popping up; one being how it is usually the man's role to ask the woman out on a date and make most of the moves required to progress and two how it is usually the man's role to pay for said dates.

What do you, the members of the Escapist think about these topics? and how would you change them if you could?

I've only had a male perspective on this so female viewpoints are highly recommended.

*Also a quick side-note to ask for some help: There's a really cute girl who works at the grocery store across from my house and I want to ask her out on a date, although she lives in my town I only ever see her at the store she works in, I never see her on a night out or generally around town. Any advice would be appreciated, thanks.

Oh dear that Gamestation add was right

Sorry.
This bothers me too, women are quick to complain about any form of sexism against them but as soon as I ask my girlfriend if she could at least cover what she ordered, or buy her own damn $8 popcorn she makes me out to be the bad guy. (I mean ex-girlfriend)

 

[Aetera]

I'm gay, and gender-role inequality even extends to me. Just because I'm pretty tomboyish, I've been expected to play the typical "guy" role with the girls that I've dated, who have always been more stereotypically girly. Problem is, I hate/fear initiating things, and pretty much suck at it. I hate being the leader with things/people. It's frustrating.

I have to be the one to ask a girl out, I have to plan dates, etc. Do not want.

So, basically, gender roles suck, and no one gets to escape it.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Have more rap songs about how women be rollin' in men and dough.

Profit.

The notion that we should accept social change from RAP is...

It makes me nauseous.

 

[Vampire cat]

No it's not.
The only time I've ever heard that being said was in the very first Back to the Future movie.
Never ever else.

I can't account for where you live...

 

[Clockwork-Fox]

Honestly it more has to do with the person. Some girls want to be asked out and taken care of like a spoiled princess. And then there are girls who would rather do the chasing and don't want any extra attention for basically just having boobs. As far as the asking out business, it depends on the other person's knowledge of said feelings. You can't always expect the other person to know you have feelings for them. If that's the case, you'll probably have to ask. But if there seems to be mutual attraction, then it could go either way.

As far as payment goes, well I guess it depends. If I want to go to say, a really nice restaurant of my specific choosing, I'd plan on paying for the entire thing since it could be out of my date's price range. If its just a casual thing, then offer to pay, but don't insist. Some girls get mad if you insist on paying, but then at least you can't get in trouble for not offering to be a gentleman.

Like the story in The Canterbury Tales, women just want power over their own lives. Even if a guy acts in an old fashioned, chivalrous style, girls want to choose if they are treated like a princess. Treat a lady with respect and things like splitting a tab will be super simple.

 

[KalosCast]

Sure are a lot of bitter Forever Alones in this thread.

It's just old tradition. It dates back to a time where women generally didn't even have a means of making their own income (or even leave the house very often), so they couldn't even be reasonably expected to pay for dinner and pick up dudes.

 

[Paksenarrion]

Have more rap songs about how women be rollin' in men and dough.

Profit.

The notion that we should accept social change from RAP is...

It makes me nauseous.

It's either that, or turn off the TV and teach children to strive for a social utopia. But that would require effort and commitment from parents.

If we let television raise our children...