[Gender in gaming] It's not just about women.

[runequester]

This whole debacle tends to revolve around the idea that gender roles is only of interest to women. That tends to follow into the whole "core gamer" demographic questions.

This misses the fact that this stuff affects men as well. A few months back, there was a super sad story about a boy being bullied so bad he committed suicide. The reason? He was into My Little Pony and the jerks at his school deemed that it was "for girls".

Plenty of men don't find the "brutal macho man" image appealing or find themselves able to identify with it.

One of my favourite male characters in gaming is James from Silent Hill 2. Not because I intend to murder my wife (just in case she's reading this ) but because he was just a normal dude in a terrible situation.
(also, he didn't talk like he just ate a bunch of kitty litter but that's a different thing).

Playing God of War is fun but Kratos is so exaggerated, it's hard to feel any kind of emotional connection whatsoever. I imagine I'm not the only one feeling that way.
People say they don't play women because they can't identify with them. How many of the characters we get can you actually identify with?

What possible connection could I have with a 6 foot 6 space marine who kills 547 aliens before taking his lunch break and has a "dark past" because he once murdered 553 aliens that one day?


"Diversity" in gaming isn't just about women or minorities, though that's the more visible issue. It's also about having a wider range of male characters AS WELL.
It'd be nice to have more games with characters that can be related to. Yeah, power fantasy is fun and it's a thing but when it becomes the norm, it loses any actual impact it has.

More importantly, it'd be nice to have characters other than "sarcastic edgy loner" and "brooding meat-man with dark past".

 

[Hover Hand Mode]

All of these examples are the result of the same sexist mindset that leads to poor representation of women in media. Personally, I grew tired of the outdated patriarchal expectations that people pushed on me just because I was born with a Y chromosome. I can relate to gamers who feel a little left out.

 

[Someone Depressing]

I don't tent to relate very well to male protagonists, especially the macho, gritty, gravelly-voiced action hero that tends to plaque storytelling in general, which is why I often prefer to play as female characters. With female characters, you tend to get more archetypes and generally better-written characters because some writers tend to think that "Women are special, men are dull". This is also why support/mission control characters in COD games tend to have much more fleshed out personalities than the silent, male, 1 dimensional unrealistic killing machine protagonist.

It's a power fantasy, yes, but mostly one that the writer has. I imagine at least 40% of the men playing the game would much rather have a decent character than a blank, uninteresting walking epitome of machoness, played completely unironically.

 

[runequester]

I don't tent to relate very well to male protagonists, especially the macho, gritty, gravelly-voiced action hero that tends to plaque storytelling in general, which is why I often prefer to play as female characters. With female characters, you tend to get more archetypes and generally better-written characters because some writers tend to think that "Women are special, men are dull". This is also why support/mission control characters in COD games tend to have much more fleshed out personalities than the silent, male, 1 dimensional unrealistic killing machine protagonist.

It's a power fantasy, yes, but mostly one that the writer has. I imagine at least 40% of the men playing the game would much rather have a decent character than a blank, uninteresting walking epitome of machoness, played completely unironically.

That's pretty much what I am getting at. FPS games have it particularly bad. Maybe that's a limitation of that particular gaming style but I don't see why it has to be.
A character that actually reflects on what is happening would be cool. Maybe someone that shows some doubt.
What if the character was slowly losing their mind as the game progressed, while they fought alien horrors?
A young US marine trying to balance bravado with the confusion and terror of combat?

So many stories you could tell, so many stories we won't.

 

[josemlopes]

This is also why support/mission control characters in COD games tend to have much more fleshed out personalities than the silent, male, 1 dimensional unrealistic killing machine protagonist.

Wait, what characters? You mean the teammates?

Because its kind of obvious why they have more personality since the main character is supposed to simply be a character for the player to fill its shoes.

If they decide to make them talk while you use them with the same frequency as the other characters talk then they will be the same quality, basicly still not much.

He never was supposed to have personality.

 

[runequester]

This is also why support/mission control characters in COD games tend to have much more fleshed out personalities than the silent, male, 1 dimensional unrealistic killing machine protagonist.

Wait, what characters? You mean the teammates?

Because its kind of obvious why they have more personality since the main character is supposed to simply be a character for the player to fill its shoes.

If they decide to make them talk while you use them with the same frequency as the other characters talk then they will be the same quality, basicly still not much.

He never was supposed to have personality.

Sure, that's why things are the way they are now.

That doesn't mean it has to be that way. More stories to be told.

 

[Erttheking]

Not much argument here from me. Men need more interesting characters in gaming too. Heck, I'm actually mildly interested in the upcoming WW II movie Fury, because the trailers are portraying the one of main characters as a scared 19 year old kid in way over his head. A thousand times more interesting than all the macho badasses.

 

[Evonisia]

Another thing of note for James' situation: He brought it on himself. Even though everyone* knows Silent Hill 2's plot, I won't spoil why. Personally I think Silent Hill shouldn't really count here, all of the main characters are incredibly well done (excluding Homecoming/Origins) regardless of gender, even when their gender is a big part of their character (see James, Angela and Cheryl from Shattered Memories).

Personally I wouldn't mind waiting a bit for others to "catch up" (so to speak) to the oh so high average we have for male characters before we move forward, though.

[small]*As in all those squeaky clean non-casuals, clearly [/small]

 

[Someone Depressing]

This is also why support/mission control characters in COD games tend to have much more fleshed out personalities than the silent, male, 1 dimensional unrealistic killing machine protagonist.

Wait, what characters? You mean the teammates?

Because its kind of obvious why they have more personality since the main character is supposed to simply be a character for the player to fill its shoes.

If they decide to make them talk while you use them with the same frequency as the other characters talk then they will be the same quality, basicly still not much.

He never was supposed to have personality.

I mean the characters that the player doesn't tend to physically see; they're mostly written like this so they don't have to be animated.

I sort of phrased my point badly. Even the AI characters tend to be the same uninspired testosterone fueled character who are impossibly manly. It's those characters the player never actually sees who tend to be... not completely flat and dull. Just slightly less flat and dull than your average character.

 

[Continuity]

You know I'm not actually convinced that there are hordes of would be female gamers clamouring at the gates to get in if only there were better representation of their gender in core games.
My perception, and I haven't seen any credible stats that contradict this, is that women are a small minority in core gaming (lets say that's console games or steam games on PC for simplicity), perhaps somewhere between 5% and 15%, and it doesn't seem to me that the wider female audience is actually interested in core gaming regardless of its political correctness or otherwise.

*deep breath*

That said, I absolutely want to see more variety and broader themes and better handling of gender in games. This is just a quality issue, you don't even need to bring sexism or women gamers into the picture, we all benefit from games with more depth, variety and frankly more interesting characterisation than the usual tropes we so often get.

 

[Harpalyce]

The good news is that feminism agrees with you, OP, and is trying to bring down the very same bullshit gender standards that you chafe against. Gender essentialism and said bullshit standards thereof are definitely double-edged swords. That's one of the reasons that MRAs hellbent on blaming women for the evils of the world drive me up the wall, because if they just opened their eyes for five minutes they'd discover that working towards a common goal would be a good thing, but anyway, I digress.

As part of said horde of female gamers clamouring to get in at the gates: we're here, we're angry, we're pretty fed up with chainmail bikini syndrome, and we're very done with being told that male power fantasies equal beefcake for us. They're not. They're angry male power fantasies. Go compare Kratos and the boys of Free! if you need the difference made clear, but jfc I'm going all tangential again aren't I

I actually thought this thread was going to be about genderqueer, gender-neutral and agender characters in gaming, but I'm guessing we have to at least get "no women are not dick houses" down first before we tackle more esoteric concepts.

Really, though, the point about just making good games is what baffles me why some people are so against this whole idea. If you take more care with your characters and make them not cardboard cutout stereotypes, they're... going to be better characters. And better characters are going to make for a better game. The end result to better representation and all of this hullaballoo is better games. That's... that's it, really. Better games. But apparently some people are just so incredibly scared of ladies ruining everything that they need to reject the premise right off the bat.

Also - the whole "wahh I can't emotionally connect with women!" bit... If this is somebody's excuse I honestly mentally mark them down as dangerous. Look, lady gamers have had to identify with characters of the opposite gender for ages, it's not that fucking hard. If you are literally unable to sympathize with a woman character because she is a woman, this is not an issue games are going to sort out. It's an issue for your psychologist to sort out. Before you start murdering prostitutes. Because you consider women chattel without feelings. And therefore eminently stabbable.

 

[omega 616]

snip

I'm more bothered about playing as any male protagonist. I will read down my list of PS3 & 4 games I have stack here, (which isn't a lot 'cos I was a big game trader)... Killzone, last of us, black ops 2, watch dogs, MGS5, GTA5, Battlefield 3, MW2, xmen:destiny, black ops, FFX/2 hd, MW3, Dark souls, Dragon age 2, MGS hd collection, Resident evil 6 (why do I still have this crap?), Fallout NV, UFC undisputed 3, Dragon age orgins goty, MGS4.

ALL have male leads, the only exceptions are the ones with character customization ... even then dragon age 2 has MALE hawke on the box art! Even worse is most of them are white male leads. Think of the biggest series, uncharted, assassins creed, far cry ... most of them are white males, the only other long running series I can think of that doesn't have a white male lead is Tomb raider!

Let me play as a woman, a trans, a disabled person ... at the very least give me a black guy to play as! Don't go all "everybodies golf" on me, making the black guy with a gold tooth, looking all gangsta!

Then, when you do give me a female character, give her clothes! I don't want a full burka, but I want something akin to male clothing.

 

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

I actually thought this thread was going to be about genderqueer, gender-neutral and agender characters in gaming, but I'm guessing we have to at least get "no women are not dick houses" down first before we tackle more esoteric concepts.

I thought the same thing. I do disagree with you about getting the "dick house" (is it wrong that I laughed when I read that?) thing down first is the way to go. I think that the more people band together for (as this topic suggests, is in the best interest for all), the better.

Back on topic. I am not so sure that every game needs characters. I have long thought that COD games would be just fine without even bothering with a story. And I don't feel that players of games should be looked down on for enjoying a game with no story. Stories, and characters can make some games, but be completely superfluous in others.

Not to dismiss the point. I do not see a whole lot of diversity in gaming, either. I think COD Could actually excel on the diversity front, by doing away with the story.

It is actually the same argument. Not every game needs to have the same exact thing, in this case story.

I understand the need for diversity, in fact would love to see that become the new normal. I can honestly say that I will still want my sarcastic loner and chain mail bikini girl.<--not an excuse to have every representation of females, in bikinis. I can always mod that in myself anyway.

 

[Don Incognito]

Feminism seeks to forcibly impose gender roles, same as the bits of real patriarchal thinking that are still left. For example feminist mythology seeks to invent that all men enforce a 'rape culture' where they all alledgedly love sex crimes.

Feminism promotes images of dumb uncontrollable men who only think with their dick, and women as helpless incompetent victims of the evil men.

......wow.

I strongly recommend spending less time on reddit.

 

[Mikeybb]

I've always been less bothered about the protagonist/player and more bothered about the supporting cast.

They're the ones you'll get to interact with and, if done well, you'll truly feel invested in how their story develops or their well being. I find myself more interested in them than the player controlled character.

Granted, story telling has come some way from the ciphers that were the norm back in halflife 2's prime, but I still find myself more interested in the supporting cast of games.

Even in the mass effect series, with all the control and ways you were given to express your own character's personality, I found myself actively worrying about characters survival, especially during the finale of the second game.

 

[Gamer87]

I absolutely agree.

It's not just about too few good female player characters, we need good male ones too. We need more diversity in general. We need main characters of other races than caucasian, other sexualities than straight and with some less stereotypical and more interesting personality traits.

I think most people bring up the issue with female representation more than these other issues because right now it feels like the thing at the top of the list of things to fix. Once we have started seeing more women, us despicable SJWs who dare want diversity and inclusivity will move on to request more non-caucasians, realistic male characters and LGBTQ characters.

Games are more fun when (if you care about story and characters) the main character is not the same "'sarcastic edgy loner'" or "'brooding meat-man with dark past'" as you said and that is why those stereotypes are as off-putting to me as not being able to play as my own gender.


P.S. I am a female "core gamer" that according to my understanding means "someone who plays shooters regularly and generally spends a lot of time and money gaming". We do exist and would be happy to be acknowledged by having some more female player characters. Peace out

 

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

So is there any chance we can just get one big old "all attempts to restart this silly thread in one place" thread somewhere and just report further attempts to restart the same silly thread for instant lock?

Because frankly this is getting really annoying.

Also this doesn't really have anything to do with gaming itself so at least put it in off-topic where it belongs.

This topic is relevant to gaming. It is a discussion of characters and stories within gaming. "Silly", "annoying" and "off topic", is what you have contributed to it so far.

Those quotation marks are there to signify that they are your words, and in no way should be misconstrued as me using your words out of context to make a statement about your post.