GeoHot's Lawyer Responds to Sony's Claims

[Lord Krunk]

If their is the one reason why I don't support him and its slightly due to how ppl view it.

OMG Sony is a big bad corporation! How dare they look out for themselves? I mean shouldn't all companies look out for everyone elses need?

As far as Sony's concerned, he's just some guy who bought 4 PS3s.

The issue is: why can't he do what he wants with the things he owns, and help others to do the same?

Sony's mostly just doing this to make an example of Hotz so no other budding reverse engineers figure out how to chip - or worse, emulate - a PS3.

Basically, it's the same slippery slope argument we always see on Fox News or the Westboro Baptist Church. This is no different - Hotz isn't doing anything morally questionable, he's just using his skills to see what a PS3 can really do.

 

[minimacker]

I don't get the problem. He modded/tampered with the console, that breaks the user agreement, he has opened the console to piracy. In what way is he not guilty?

It's the claim of an owned product. Not an electronic copy, but an actual, physical product that you bought at a local electronics store.

Is it illegal to open it up and wire it around or not?

 

[Scottieburke]

Last time I checked Defamation was illegal. Go on, turn around and charge the lawyers with defamation!

 

[Baresark]

Why is anyone so surprised here? As I pointed out in the other article, it didn't say anything at all. I swear, there is a real problem with literacy on forums sometimes. The article clearly didn't say anything that was fact. It was all speculation. He didn't even "flee" the country, he went on a vacation.

LITERACY IS EVERYTHING, people.

 

[Baresark]

If their is the one reason why I don't support him and its slightly due to how ppl view it.

OMG Sony is a big bad corporation! How dare they look out for themselves? I mean shouldn't all companies look out for everyone elses need?

Yes this is exactly how I feel! Everyone immediately jumps up and says- "Sony is a big corporation and they are suing this guy? What an awful thing to do! He didnt even have the money to defend himself he- ... what do you mean he did something wrong? Well I dont care, this is a david vs. goliath kind of situation here, and we must support david!"

I hope Sony goes to town on this guy.

I hate the David/Goliath argument myself. People should seriously decide what they think about a case, based on the case. I'm on the guys side, but not because Sony is Sony. It's because this is an important case for Hotz to win, in the name of us all. And if Sony wins, we are treated to a whole new layer of IP laws that will make everyone's life harder.

PS, the Captcha is: Socialism ovidit

 

[Baresark]

You know what's sad? It's true, people always seem to be blaming the lawyers!
Not that I blame them for it in the least, frankly what upsets me is that these kinds of situations really do show the absolute worst side of my profession, and so people always say "ugh, typical lawyers" and how horrible and mean they are...

And then I sit here. And cry.

To be fair, lawyers are the kind of people who would look for the slightest opportunity to get an edge over the competition and grab as much bottle caps dough as humanly possible...

But then again it begs the question, who isn't?

.


A lawyers job is to win cases for their clients. It's just business. It seems dirty, but the problem is with our justice system, not the lawyers. So, Sony's scummy lawyers did their job, they made a move to try and win the case. The truth is, since this pretty much failed (probably), due to Hotz's lawyers and Hotz himself setting it strait, it makes Sony look like even bigger douchebags.

 

[RicoADF]

I don't get the problem. He modded/tampered with the console, that breaks the user agreement, he has opened the console to piracy. In what way is he not guilty?

The argument is that he has the right to open his console and tinker with it all he wants just as you have the right to tinker with you car all you want, as long as he doesn't use it for illegal purposes. Saying that he released a code that COULD be used for piracy isn't good enough, it wasn't (suposivly) made for such a use, and just as VCR's and computer's have the ability but can legally be sold on the grounds that they can be used responsibly he's defence is on the same board of "I didn't pirate and it wasn't intended to do so".

 

[Waif]

GeoHotz shouldn't have went to SA anyway. Doing so has only provided the impression that he is not taking this court thing seriously. It doesn't matter to me that the trip may or may not have been planned long in advance, it's more that the court case should take precedence in ones life. I had thought that there were sanctions against leaving the country if you were in court for something, but I guess I had that idea wrong.

He is NOT accused of a criminal offense.

This case isn't a criminal case. It's a civil one. People seem to be treating this as if the guy is accused of murder.

He hasn't put his life on hold over it? No shocker. Why would you? It's not as if he faces jail time. If his trip was planned since before the case, cancelling it would've meant he'd probably have lost all his money put into the trip anyhow for no reason, and wouldn't have gotten a relaxing break from the stress of being sued by a large corporation.

Well perhaps GeoHotz shouldn't have hacked the PS3 root key then posted it online for everyone to see. He not be on trial for murder, but he is a criminal, clearly. Personally, I would put my life on hold over something that could change my life for the worse, and I think many other sensible people would do the same. Though this doesn't change anything. He's already in SA, kicking it back, drinking a Marguerite. I just wouldn't do it myself given the same circumstances.

 

[Keava]

If their is the one reason why I don't support him and its slightly due to how ppl view it.

OMG Sony is a big bad corporation! How dare they look out for themselves? I mean shouldn't all companies look out for everyone elses need?

For me it's not about big corporation suing a single guy. It's about consumer rights to do whatever they want with the product they legally own. As i said many times, they free to ban him and anyone using the root key form PSN and online services since that's the service Sony, as a company, provides to end-users.
The moment they start to pursue him modding the console for his personal use it starts to get a bit iffy. Sure, you could say, he posted the root key for the public, but that still for me is not a reason to start legal action. Why? Because all he did was inform. Just like your local news inform you about the exploits for your government or similar things.

Back in 1986 The Mentor posted something called Hacker's Manifesto shortly after he got arrested. It still is respected by actual hacker, not the scrip kiddies that troll the internet for funnies, and pretty much the whole PS3 hack perfectly fits into it.

Yes, I am a criminal.  My crime is that of curiosity.  My crime is
that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like.
My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me
for.

 

[Scorched_Cascade]

Pang Tong's ploy has failed.

Pang Tong's unit has been routed.

This has gone from stupid to utterly fucking ridiculous, it's a tie you both lose.

Ah Pang Tong is involved? That explains it...crafty devil got Geohot and Sony to tie their ships together so that the flamewar could rage across both.

I don't know whether to consider it absolutely geekish or just weird that I know exactly what you two are talking about. And that was a nice game for the SNES, made me want to look up who Zhuge Liang was.

Nah it's not geeky, it's from a classic piece of Chinese literature (Romance of the Three Kingdoms). The Dynasty Warriors game series based on this literature is still going strong and DW 7 is due for release in April.

 

[Jumwa]

Well perhaps GeoHotz shouldn't have hacked the PS3 root key then posted it online for everyone to see. He not be on trial for murder, but he is a criminal, clearly. Personally, I would put my life on hold over something that could change my life for the worse, and I think many other sensible people would do the same. Though this doesn't change anything. He's already in SA, kicking it back, drinking a Marguerite. I just wouldn't do it myself given the same circumstances.

Did you not read a word I said?

He is NOT a criminal. Even IF he is found guilty--and the trial hasn't even STARTED yet--he'd still not be guilty of a criminal offense.

To be a criminal, you'd first need to be charged with a criminal offense, then you'd need to be convicted of it. Nothing about this is criminal, this is a civil case.

And as for what he should or shouldn't do: this thing could drag on for years, the trial hasn't even started yet. If every person who had a civil suit issued against them were treated like a criminal and not allowed to vacation or live a normal life, we'd have have one very messed up world.

 

[Korten12]

If their is the one reason why I don't support him and its slightly due to how ppl view it.

OMG Sony is a big bad corporation! How dare they look out for themselves? I mean shouldn't all companies look out for everyone elses need?

For me it's not about big corporation suing a single guy. It's about consumer rights to do whatever they want with the product they legally own. As i said many times, they free to ban him and anyone using the root key form PSN and online services since that's the service Sony, as a company, provides to end-users.
The moment they start to pursue him modding the console for his personal use it starts to get a bit iffy. Sure, you could say, he posted the root key for the public, but that still for me is not a reason to start legal action. Why? Because all he did was inform. Just like your local news inform you about the exploits for your government or similar things.

Back in 1986 The Mentor posted something called Hacker's Manifesto shortly after he got arrested. It still is respected by actual hacker, not the scrip kiddies that troll the internet for funnies, and pretty much the whole PS3 hack perfectly fits into it.

Yes, I am a criminal.  My crime is that of curiosity.  My crime is
that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like.
My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me
for.

So basicaly Hackers think they're better then everyone else?

 

[Tron Paul]

Yes, I am a criminal.  My crime is that of curiosity.  My crime is
that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like.
My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me
for.

So basicaly Hackers think they're better then everyone else?

So you're stereotyping a group of people? Many hackers are arrogant assholes (see GeoHot), but that doesn't mean all of them are. The hacker ethos of insatiable curiosity is something I relate to, though I'm nowhere near skilled enough to call myself a hacker.

This kind of curiosity is almost always punished, whether it should or shouldn't be. This problem is found in education as well: the teacher (in most cases) only wants the student to do the problem in a certain way. If the student finds a different way that still works he/she won't get full credit.

 

[Castun]

I didn't read through all the replies, but would just like to point out, if someone else didn't already, that it's a civil case, not a criminal case. He can't 'flee the country' as he has nothing to flee. He wasn't in jail and released on bail. If he happened to miss his day in court, the only thing that would happen is a default judgement awarded to Sony against GeoHot, and in this I'm not even sure if you had to be there or your lawyer could handle everything. Anyway, even if this were to happen, he still wouldn't be a criminal and wouldn't be thrown in jail when he came back.

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

Pang Tong's ploy has failed.

Pang Tong's unit has been routed.

This has gone from stupid to utterly fucking ridiculous, it's a tie you both lose.

Ah Pang Tong is involved? That explains it...crafty devil got Geohot and Sony to tie their ships together so that the flamewar could rage across both.

I don't know whether to consider it absolutely geekish or just weird that I know exactly what you two are talking about. And that was a nice game for the SNES, made me want to look up who Zhuge Liang was.

Nah it's not geeky, it's from a classic piece of Chinese literature (Romance of the Three Kingdoms). The Dynasty Warriors game series based on this literature is still going strong and DW 7 is due for release in April.

I never got into the DW games, though I played the crap out of Romance of the Three Kingdoms 2. Played it on the hardest difficulty and won using Liu Bei and I cursed Lu Bu then. Though my suspicions are that Lu Bu is even more of a pain in the ass in the DW games. I also read the book a couple of times and before that I had no idea that Guan Yu had such a tie to Cao Cao or that Zhuge had brothers. Was fun to read, actually.

 

[Waif]

Well perhaps GeoHotz shouldn't have hacked the PS3 root key then posted it online for everyone to see. He not be on trial for murder, but he is a criminal, clearly. Personally, I would put my life on hold over something that could change my life for the worse, and I think many other sensible people would do the same. Though this doesn't change anything. He's already in SA, kicking it back, drinking a Marguerite. I just wouldn't do it myself given the same circumstances.

Did you not read a word I said?

He is NOT a criminal. Even IF he is found guilty--and the trial hasn't even STARTED yet--he'd still not be guilty of a criminal offense.

To be a criminal, you'd first need to be charged with a criminal offense, then you'd need to be convicted of it. Nothing about this is criminal, this is a civil case.

And as for what he should or shouldn't do: this thing could drag on for years, the trial hasn't even started yet. If every person who had a civil suit issued against them were treated like a criminal and not allowed to vacation or live a normal life, we'd have have one very messed up world.

Wow, calm down man. There's no need to get antagonistic. I just expressed my feelings about how GeoHotz is handling this. I did read what you had said, however, it seems you haven't read what I said.

He is still a criminal because of what he has "done". Hacking into protected property, and posting vital IP is criminal action. He is a criminal, no different than the criminals who hack into banks and post credit card information. Nothing will change what he has done. I do hope that he gets what is coming to him, because he should get what all criminals deserve. Just because you don't see him as a criminal, doesn't mean that the courts won't eventually take it to that level. I sincerely hope they do.

 

[Shadie777]

User agreements are not legally binding. This has been proven time and time again.
GeoHot tampered with his console to make it more open, he has never pirated a game and doesn't condone piracy. I see him as the good guy in this scenario.

There is no good guy in this.

GeoHot is not in the wrong in terms of hacking the ps3 he owns but he is wrong for posting Sony's root key for everyone to see. The root key is Sony's property and he made piracy easier to do.

Sony probably only started this in order to patch the holes that GeoHot made but im worried about what would happen if they win. If they do win they might restrict the things that we can do to the ps3.

I just hope that this ends well for us gamers.

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

Well perhaps GeoHotz shouldn't have hacked the PS3 root key then posted it online for everyone to see. He not be on trial for murder, but he is a criminal, clearly. Personally, I would put my life on hold over something that could change my life for the worse, and I think many other sensible people would do the same. Though this doesn't change anything. He's already in SA, kicking it back, drinking a Marguerite. I just wouldn't do it myself given the same circumstances.

Did you not read a word I said?

He is NOT a criminal. Even IF he is found guilty--and the trial hasn't even STARTED yet--he'd still not be guilty of a criminal offense.

To be a criminal, you'd first need to be charged with a criminal offense, then you'd need to be convicted of it. Nothing about this is criminal, this is a civil case.

And as for what he should or shouldn't do: this thing could drag on for years, the trial hasn't even started yet. If every person who had a civil suit issued against them were treated like a criminal and not allowed to vacation or live a normal life, we'd have have one very messed up world.

Wow, calm down man. There's no need to get antagonistic. I just expressed my feelings about how GeoHotz is handling this. I did read what you had said, however, it seems you haven't read what I said.

He is still a criminal because of what he has "done". Hacking into protected property, and posting vital IP is criminal action. He is a criminal, no different than the criminals who hack into banks and post credit card information. Nothing will change what he has done. I do hope that he gets what is coming to him, because he should get what all criminals deserve. Just because you don't see him as a criminal, doesn't mean that the courts won't eventually take it to that level. I sincerely hope they do.

Have to disagree with you, Waif. No criminal activity occured. As it has been said before, this is a civil matter. What is being discussed legally is whether or not GeoHotz's actions were in breach of a "contract". The two major things to this is 1) If cracking the PS3 root key violated said contract, which I don't believe it would since such contracts usually cover on-line behaviors on modding and 2) Whether GeoHotz's actions of posting the root key on-line was in breach of contract, as his actions directly resulted in the device being used for illegal activities. This is the major one Sony has to prove, as tying a link between the two should prove to be interesting.

As for the debate of whether or not a PS3 is technically "yours" or "theirs", the following anology should suffice. I buy a vacuum cleaner directly from its manufacturer. I, then, take the vacuum cleaner apart, find out what components do what and then make a flame thrower out of it. Then, I post said knowledge on the internet. Now, the manufacturer sues me for doing something to its machine and posting how it can be done.

Granted, in this analogy, it's clearer to see that I have, indeed, made something VERY dangerous and the debate could rage on whether my actions will bring great harm (or great BBQs) to the public and thus, damage the manufacturer's reputation/image. The same can be said for GeoHot and his battle with Sony, however, distribution of knowledge should be no crime, IMO. If someone else other than GeoHot uses this information with illegal intent, then it is the fault of the person who commits that offense, not GeoHot. Unless, of course, it IS GeoHot, then the whole damned debate will rage on until the technology involved is so outdated, we wondered why we even wasted breath on the issue in the first place.

 

[Jumwa]

Wow, calm down man. There's no need to get antagonistic. I just expressed my feelings about how GeoHotz is handling this. I did read what you had said, however, it seems you haven't read what I said.

He is still a criminal because of what he has "done". Hacking into protected property, and posting vital IP is criminal action. He is a criminal, no different than the criminals who hack into banks and post credit card information. Nothing will change what he has done. I do hope that he gets what is coming to him, because he should get what all criminals deserve. Just because you don't see him as a criminal, doesn't mean that the courts won't eventually take it to that level. I sincerely hope they do.

There's nothing to calm down, and no antagonizing. As I--and now another--are just trying to explain to you: even Sony isn't accusing him of being a criminal. Sony is saying he broke a civil agreement.

And you're also not understanding that a person can't be found guilty or responsible if their trial hasn't even started.

If Sony isn't even claiming he's a criminal, why are you?

 

[haddaway234]

I don't get the problem. He modded/tampered with the console, that breaks the user agreement, he has opened the console to piracy. In what way is he not guilty?

*sigh* because unless you sign the agreement before you buy the console it doesn't count.

Your sarcasm makes you so cool.

But doesn't the agreement say that buy buying the console you agree to the user agreement?