George R.R. Martin "Astonished" by Fans After Winds of Winter Delay

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Silentpony said:
StewShearer said:
Well...no. I mean you may want to know what happens in both mediums, but the books have been around since what? '96? '97? Something like that.
And the massive fanbase only started after the show started. I would say a majority of the fanbase truly read the books to know what happens in the show or at least how it stacks up against the show. With the show over-taking the books, I'm predicting the sales of the book won't be anywhere close to what they would have been had the book met its deadlines.
I have to agree. While the books weren't exactly obscure before the show, they certainly weren't the pop-culture phenomenon they are now. Speaking as someone who started reading ASoIaF between seasons 4 and 5 mostly because I didn't want to wait for next season, I'm well aware that I'm far from alone in that regard. Plenty of people did as I did, and I've seen no small number of people now saying they probably won't bother reading the books anymore now that it seems likely the show will be retro by the time the books catch up.
That's not to say the books won't sell well, since they are still far more detailed have a lot of variation from the show, but I agree that being left in the dust will likely hamper their sales now that people will no longer be tempted to buy them specifically to get their fix. The slightly underwhelming reception of the last two books and their infamous bloating isn't likely to help either.
With that said, I'll still be picking up a copy pretty much as soon as it hits shelves.
 

TwistednMean

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I really felt like negative fan reaction to Martin's delays were blown way out of proportion back when it was still news.

Maybe that's because it feels really stupid to try and hurry up and author. Even more stupid than pouring vitriol over him, because he is delaying new books.

My beef with Martin is that a Dance With Dragons was an absolute pile of horseshit. So I am not surprised that people aren't holding their breath for new books in the series.
 

J.McMillen

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For those who keep complaining about how long it's taking him to finish the next book...

"George R.R. Martin is not your *****." - Neil Gaiman
 

Random Gamer

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I kind of get his troubles. I dislike deadlines, specially when other people decide them, and probably tend to do better when I do things on my own terms, and they're done when they're done - meaning, they're usually done earlier without deadline.
Besides, no reason to be pissed off at him, he's frank and honest, and, unlike with Dance with Dragons, he hasn't spent time telling people book was nearly ready, 4 years before its actual release. He's learned the lesson and has quite well managed communication, so far. And it's clear he wants to finish it and is trying hard to write and get it done.
While he didn't mention it, I think his efforts to salvage the Hugos from their current messy infighting also slowed things down when it comes to writing Winds of Winter. Not that I'd hold this against him, it's understandable, and he's done a great job trying to avoid things going downhill as bad as they could go, trying to act like an adult in charge (for an example of allegedly adult people badly managing such a situation to the point of having things go nuclear, see Gamergate :p ); not sure it was enough to avoid things going downhill for good, but he did his best and it's not his fault.

Still, the original mistake was probably selling rights and doing the show before he was actually writing the very last book. Though I can't fault him much for that, because there's a good cast, because it was HBO, because first seasons were mostly quite great. A shame, it was a terrible dilemma. We'll never know if we would've got a better show, had he decided to wait another 10 years to make a TV series deal - though we'd have an earlier ending to the book series, and wouldn't have any spoiler from the TV series.


Silentpony said:
Also good luck selling the book George if the show starts spoiling it.
Considering the first books sales increased greatly after the series aired, so when people already knew what was happening in first book, I'd expect some viewers to buy it. Readers-first of course will flock.
Of course, I don't think Winds of Winter will have any chance to compete with the insane Dance with Dragons release sales numbers, but I'd expect it to perform far better than the first 4 books did, because reader base has vastly expanded.
Sure, publishers would be disappointed not to have a second Dance monster seller on their hands, but that was close to a one-time event, considering the situation.
Last book (so 7 or 8 :D ) sales will be higher, I suppose, for obvious reasons.


Seraj33 said:
And the others who believe they are entitled to his work by some kind of birthright, selfish assholes.
Some, sure. But many readers have reasons not to be really glad with the situation, because they're the ones who bought the book and got word-of-mouth in the wider world. They're one of the key reasons why it was made a show. Without readers, you can write a great book, but it won't matter much to your bank account.
Now, this doesn't mean they can expect a new book every couple of years. They just should expect GRRM to try to finish the series, without putting it aside for a decade to work on fully different projects for instance, and they can expect - and should ask - him to write the best possible book, like he did earlier. Some kind of entitlement isn't totally ridiculous, but it is a limited one. Basically, first part of this post is quite clear that I support him, wish him good, and hope he can write a good book - I obviously don't fear him messing it up and botching the job by rushing it, it's clear he tries to write quality first, even with the huge pressure he's facing now.


Samtemdo8 said:
I blame the fact that he chose to write the script and screenplay for the show all.
Rarely do I here an author of a book also write for any visual adaption.
He's spent years if not decades writing TV scripts, so it's not a wonder.
That said, he only wrote one episode per season, for the first 4 seasons, he didn't write all of the scripts - 5th season, he knew he had delayed too much the writing of next book, and he probably wasn't very happy with many changes in the show, so he withdrew from writing team.
 

Razhem

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I'm amazed at how many guardians Martin can still muster.

I'll tell my boss that I'm just not feeling the magic while coding and I need more inspiration (but hey, keep that salary coming pops!) and lets see how that goes.

Thing is, Martin is overvalued as all hell, if all 5 books were amazing pieces of literature, I'd shut up and agree to just give him his space, but the last 2 were horseshit compared to the first 3 and have set up a wonderful landscape to almost ensure that book 6 will also be rubbish unless half the chapter characters die in the first chapter AND he does a fucking timeskip so that the kids and young people plots can finally advance.

He is the George Lucas and Tim Schafer of the writing world, people finally understood that the previous two aren?t some bloody geniuses without fault, the first is now clearly recognized like the gigantic hack with a fluke that he is and the second one has shown why no publisher wants to even hear his name, the both needed LIMITS and without them created rubbish. Yes, they produced some amazing stuff, but they certainly don't deserve the praise and protection and free passes the happen to get. Same goes for Martin, but he will fall and hard once the HBO series is finished, people stop giving a shit about the novels since the next one will come out probably 2 years after the series ends and the people that still care and actually read it will be so underwhelmed between what is his current downward quality trend, the hype that is outright unreachable at this stage of the game and the fact that they'll have to wait another decade to a possible ending of a story that started strong but started meandering and shuffling it's feet everywhere.
 

BloodRed Pixel

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good to hear there are some sane people left...

Razhem said:
He is the George Lucas and Tim Schafer of the writing world, .
This is complete bullshit!
They both NEVER delivered anything they promised, Martin just needs more tim deliver something great.
 

happyninja42

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I know how difficult it is to write anything of meaning. I can crap out A+ quality term papers, essays, etc., but even though I love creative writing and I've written 100s of stories ranging from short to novel length, the stuff I've finished is not personally print worthy and the stuff I think has a chance is still miles away from being finished.
I've been working on the same story for 15 years, for example, and I think it has potential, maybe not NYT best-seller or anything but I can't figure out a proper ending.
I feel for published writers who're either personally or contracturally compelled to write by a deadline and are stumped as to how to finish their story. GRRM will be done when he's done and hope he doesn't kill himself finishing the book. More than likely there's still one more behind this and I'd hate to see him go before he's fleshed it out.
Do what Jim Butcher does when he can't think of how to transition from one scene to another. Blow stuff up.

...seriously, that's what he does. Insert action scene, transition from there. xD

OT: I've never understood the level of proprietary rage that fans have over stuff. As if it's their IP, not someone else's. Books take lots of time to write, even more time when they are doorstops like the GoT books are. And he's a notoriously slow writer, long before the series came out, which is eating up more of his time. It's not really a surprise.

Personally, I don't really care. I got pretty burned out on the GoT books with the...4th book? The next to last publication, whatever that was called. He focused WAAAY too much on the perspective of my 2 most hated characters, so it made the book torture, instead of fun.
 

Gone Rampant

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Meanwhile, Brandon Sanderson continues to crank out several high quality novels every year. I mean, yes, there's gonna be a long wait until the next Mistborn series or Stormlight Archive novel, but he still has other work out there.

Hell, Jim Butcher's managed to make Dresden books near annually, and he also does some other side projects too.

Also, anyone using Livejournal really needs a slap on the head and a mandatory installation of a Wordpress account.
 

IOwnTheSpire

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Razhem said:
I'm amazed at how many guardians Martin can still muster.

I'll tell my boss that I'm just not feeling the magic while coding and I need more inspiration (but hey, keep that salary coming pops!) and lets see how that goes.
Unlike coding or other jobs, creative writing isn't a 9-5 job or something you can just sit down and do on a whim; you NEED inspiration, you NEED to be in the right mindset, and you NEED time to work on it. Do you really think someone can produce quality writing within a reasonable amount of time when everyone's putting all this pressure on him?
 

happyninja42

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Gone Rampant said:
Meanwhile, Brandon Sanderson continues to crank out several high quality novels every year. I mean, yes, there's gonna be a long wait until the next Mistborn series or Stormlight Archive novel, but he still has other work out there.

Hell, Jim Butcher's managed to make Dresden books near annually, and he also does some other side projects too.

Also, anyone using Livejournal really needs a slap on the head and a mandatory installation of a Wordpress account.
Not everyone has the same writing method. Saying that one writer (or a handful of them) are able to churn out books, doesn't mean everyone can at the same pace. Hell Jim himself has frequently stated that his method is HIS method. He doesn't say that it will necessarily work for everyone. He has said however, that when he forces himself to write, not because he's feeling inspired to write, but because "I'm going to churn out several thousand words today, even if I'm not feeling it." He has stated that afterwards, when he goes back and reads through is material, he can't tell the difference in the parts written while "in the zone", versus not. But that's just him.

Brandon Sanderson for example, is a compulsive writer. This has been stated by other writers, who are friends with him. He does it because he can't really stop himself. Other writers, like Patrick Rothfuss for example, are more compulsive editors, and spend months, years even, trying to find the perfect wording for their stories.

Creativity is a nebulous thing. And expecting one person to fit into the model of another is simply unrealistic.
 

000Ronald

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Am I the only person who just wants him to go back to writing/editing the Wild Cards series? 'cause I grew up on that shit.
 

Krokberg

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Happyninja42 said:
Not everyone has the same writing method. Saying that one writer (or a handful of them) are able to churn out books, doesn't mean everyone can at the same pace. Hell Jim himself has frequently stated that his method is HIS method. He doesn't say that it will necessarily work for everyone. He has said however, that when he forces himself to write, not because he's feeling inspired to write, but because "I'm going to churn out several thousand words today, even if I'm not feeling it." He has stated that afterwards, when he goes back and reads through is material, he can't tell the difference in the parts written while "in the zone", versus not. But that's just him.

Brandon Sanderson for example, is a compulsive writer. This has been stated by other writers, who are friends with him. He does it because he can't really stop himself. Other writers, like Patrick Rothfuss for example, are more compulsive editors, and spend months, years even, trying to find the perfect wording for their stories.

Creativity is a nebulous thing. And expecting one person to fit into the model of another is simply unrealistic.
This, very much this. Not every author is made for writing day in and day out. Just like people, authors are different too. I write as a hobby, and sometimes I get sick of what I'm currently writing, feeling the urge to write something different for a change. Doesn't mean I hate what I am working on, no, I might even think it's pretty damn good, it's just that sometimes my brain needs to focus on something else. Writing something completely new for a change can be relaxing and revive your creativity. I just can't imagine how tired Martin is of having worked on this series for ages, writing about the same characters in the same world in the same style, trying to make everything come together without violating character motivations, simple logic and underlying themes (cough).
 

RedDeadFred

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Honestly, I'm not even that excited for this book anymore. I was able to read the first 5 back to back so the exclusion of characters wasn't a big deal for me, but I wouldn't pretend that the last two were particularly great books. I feel bad for the guy because he's under such a huge amount of pressure, but I really don't see how WoW could live up to the hype.

At least I have Stephen Erikson who, in my opinion, juggles more characters, more places, and more plotlines much better than Martin. Plus, he wrote his ten book series (almost all of which are as big or bigger than Martin's works) in just twelve years. It's definitely not for everyone though. It's one of the hardest series to get into because he essentially thrusts you into the middle of everything with little to no exposition.

You can't really fault Martin though, there's obviously not going to be anyone who's as harsh a critic as himself so it's completely understandable that he wants to take his time. Not only that, writing/creativity in general works in many different ways, Martin has always said that he tends to write in bursts.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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Razhem said:
I'll tell my boss that I'm just not feeling the magic while coding and I need more inspiration (but hey, keep that salary coming pops!) and lets see how that goes.
And when your coding job requires you to come up with, expand and perpetuate an entire fictional world full of characters and events and history, come back and let us know.

(I'm not defending Martin; I'm just deriding some guy who thinks he knows what writing is like.)
 

FirstNameLastName

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I should probably mention that I'm actually fairly optimistic about the next book, and I can explain why. Part of the reason that I suspect the previous two books were so mediocre likely has to do with their place in the series. Ever heard the phrase "winter is coming"? Of course, and it's true, but it seems as if Martin didn't really know what to do to fill the space between the first three books and the arrival of winter, which I suspect is the main reason why it feels like the plot is just spinning its wheels. I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that he originally intended for there to be a slight gap between books that would move the story along, and a prologue that would more or less cover the important parts that happened, but after writing said prologue he realized there was too much to cover.
That's why I believe the last two books were rather bloated and bland; because he was essentially just putting all the pieces in place for the arrival of winter, which is no longer coming, but is already here as of the end of the last books. So, now that the board is set and all the pieces in place I hope the plot can move forward at a reasonable pace now.
 

Strazdas

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the antithesis said:
Livejournal still exists and George R R Martin uses it? Wow.
he also uses DOS based word processor to write his books.

Razhem said:
I'll tell my boss that I'm just not feeling the magic while coding and I need more inspiration (but hey, keep that salary coming pops!) and lets see how that goes.
except Martin doesnt get paid if he doesnt release the book. thats how book sales work. And i know a lot of coders that do work on "pay on delivery" system.
 

Therumancer

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As much as I enjoy the TV series you can't rush the writer, people are just going to have to accept that the TV series will likely have to diverge from the books. If George dies before he finishes the story, it will just be another situation like Zelazny passing before he finished "Amber" a real downer, but something we'll all have to deal with.

As far as writing goes I tried my hand at it as an amateur, it's not something that can be done on command, except maybe in the case of Piers Anthony.
 

Amaror

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BloodRed Pixel said:
good to hear there are some sane people left...

Razhem said:
He is the George Lucas and Tim Schafer of the writing world, .
This is complete bullshit!
They both NEVER delivered anything they promised, Martin just needs more tim deliver something great.
Is it? The first three books, were he was not as well known, released two years apart each and were freaking amazing. The last two books took 5 and 6 years each and were pretty damn bad. Not awfull, but not nearly as good as the first three. I think personally that, without someone to hurrying him along, he just tends to fill his books out more and more, which makes them worse. The first three books had a pretty expansive cast as well, but there were only few additions as time went on, and concentrating on that cast the books were filled with story progression and interesting development.
Now in the last two books he added new characters left and right. The interesting plot points have decreased and been spread out over about twice the number of pages in the process.
There are just some people that don't work as well when they have too much freedom. They're obsessed with making their creation perfect and end up making it worse in the process. And I think GRRM may be one of them.
 

TotalerKrieger

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A reasonable level of support and encouragement from fans, even after yet another failed deadline, will probably be far more effective in motivating Martin to finish the book at a faster pace. Bombarding him with negativity and disappointment will probably only slow his progress to a crawl (moreso). He is human just like the rest of us. ABBAB (Archer reference) is not an effective motivational strategy. Still, it appears that many fans already know this.