acosn said:
Mr F. said:
A few quick points.
Two) Stop trying to fight bigotry with bigotry. It just ends with Nationalism which ends in a lot of young men getting sent off to kill a lot of other young men. It also makes you sound like a penis.
We're not being bigotive. Islam is a religion, not a race. It's leading to incredible amounts of instability wherever it goes, and it wants to impose itself on whatever region it goes to. But by all means, tell that to the British or the French who now have sections of their cities they simply don't police anymore because the Muslims have literally alienated everyone else out of the area. Tell that to the police who won't even enforce the law in those areas because they just get attacked. Tell that to the teachers who have to put up with disruptive kids who think that a bunch of bronze age goat herders know more about evolution than 21st century science.
All things being taken equally? Yeah, there's perfectly level headed muslims out there. I've met them, hell I even lived with one for 6 months. They're not the ones in the news. They're not the ones raiding our embassies. If they can't fix their own religions problems it behooves us, the outside to do it for them.
Three) The film is not something to be taken in a vacuum. It is not "Oh, a single film was made and suddenly people are angry". For many, MANY people in the Arab world, America (And the west) are seen as aggressors, people who bring conflict, people who lie, people who are deceitful and people who simply do not give a shit about them. This racism, this stereotype, comes out of many years of direct and indirect conflict, the years of empire, just about everything really. The storming of these embassies, these protests, it is not JUST about the film. Consider it to be the "Straw that broke the camels back". And before you say "Well, that back gets broken a lot". Yes, Yes it does.
I grew up around people who were losing relatives on a weekly basis due to the Iraq war. I grew up around people who were losing relatives on a monthly basis thanks to Israeli assaults in Palestine. I grew up being driven around by Afghani taxi drivers, refugees, men who would state how much they hate the Taliban but wish that the Americans could learn to aim. It is not about the film people.
It is about decades, if not centuries, of outside involvement that have led to little more then misery and death.
About a century. Prior to the first world war the middle east was administered by the Ottoman empire, and for the most part it worked except for the fact that they couldn't manage their finances to save their lives. Great Britain's greatest aid to the country was literally accountants.
If you really want to dig further, everyone is killing everyone in the middle east. Literally the only reason anyone is even remotely interested in the middle east today is because global oil markets are inextricably tied to it, which is why even though the US gets virtually no oil from the middle east, we're still stuck there. I mean, don't get me wrong, the Afghan and Iraqi wars were beyond stupid- you don't go to war with a country to hold their hands and sing kum-ba-ya. You do it to utterly destroy their ability to fight back. Most of the problem really does just come back to the fact that there's no good way to reconcile proper nationalism with how the middle east is structured. Most parts of it simply never had a real, cohesive state so when you ask groups that want absolutely nothing to do with each other to work together....well it doesn't end well.
Four) (AND THIS IS THE IMPORTANT ONE) Freedom of speech gives you freedom to be a dick. True. But in many countries, freedom of speech is limited. This racist fundamentalist maniac would not have been able to create his little trailer in a cynical attempt to destablise Egypt (The real reason behind this. Go read more people) if he was in the UK. It would have been stopped because you cannot preach hatred.
Some things should not be covered by freedom of speech. And hate speech is one of them. Laws need to be changed to make sense. I mean, in the UK we have freedom to gather in public places. You know, essential freedom behind any functioning democracy (Which we are not) but after the rise of Fascism, we banned the freedom to march in uniform as a part of a political party. We did this cause it would break the back of the Fascist movement. Sure, it is limiting a freedom, but it makes sense.
People should stop hiding behind "Freedom of Speech". You are free to say something and you are free to be punched for it. And when the things that you say will cause riots, because that is your aim, when you are trying to cause misery and death, YOU SHOULD BE STOPPED. You do not have freedom of speech in the states, many things are prevented. This film should have been stopped in its tracks.
Freedom of speech should not take precedent over freedom to continue breathing. And when what you say will cause people to stop breathing, when your AIM is to say something that will stop people from breathing, well, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO FUCKING SPEAK.
Peace out.
Religion doesn't need protection from the freedom of speech. Freedom of speech needs protection from religion. It's one thing to advocate violence on others, but for the most part when people say, "hate speech" they really mean "adults calling each other names." and most of that only holds any relevance because the offended part takes leave of their senses. You can only be offended because you let words offend you. To complain that you are offended is quite literally to just whine.
And at any rate, if your religion doesn't hold up under the most basic of scrutiny, why believe?
Firstly (And I am not going to start complicating things by quoting each bit, it can end up confusing) I am not talking about people who state that there are areas that eh police are just afraid to go and whatnot. That is a different matter. I am talking about people who are putting the blame on all Muslims, I am talking about morons (Like Therumancer) who are preaching the utter annihilation of an entire people based on their religious beliefs because of perceived slights.
Go on facebook or reddit and you will end up swimming in a sea of racism and Islamophobia. It is, quite frankly, disgusting.
As for these accusations that there are areas the police are just "Afraid to go" my only reaction is that coppers on the continent and in the rest of the world are a bunch of pussies. Since we cleaned up Moss Side there are no "No-go" areas for the police and our lot are not armed. It sounds like horror stories to me. Heasay and bullshit, in short.
Right, Schooling. Again, from personal experience I have not seen the effect of this. However, I am more inclined to believe these claims. Simply because I have read enough in the news of Christians trying to push Creationism back into schools. My problem here is that people are taking "Some radical muslims" and applying it to all Muslims. In the west we used to have religious extremists who would kill people. Thing is, when you have an advanced state you can quash this stuff. Areas like Sudan are severly lacking in the rule of law.
Sure, these attacks are religiously motivated. But you have to think about it more then just "Those damn muslims are attacking people" and start thinking about the political and economic situation in those countries that are being affected. People are angry, they see their religion being attacked, again and again, and then they lash out. They are being lead by charismatic, powerful assholes who are good at whipping a crowd into a frenzy. This is not purely a religious thing, just the fact that assholes do what they do to get power. I mean, America and the United Kingdom were dragged into two wars because of percieved attacks on their people and the "American Way".
Finally, and this is important because it pisses me off when people make the argument you are making (Not everything prior to this point, all of that is logical and acceptable)
"You can only be offended because you let words offend you. To complain that you are offended is quite literally to just whine."
Words have meaning. They carry offence. There is no choosing in letting a word offend you, all words have meaning, have context. If someone calls a black guy a ****** with the intent to offend, would you say "You are just letting words offend you, you whiney fuckwit". No, you would think that guy who is calling someone a ****** is a prick. Words have meaning, words have context, this stupid fucking ideal on the internet that people "Let" words offend them is incredibly annoying for anyone who knows a linguist, has ever studied linguistics or, in my case, has studied and was raised by linguists.
Sure, meanings change. But denying that words have meaning and stating that anyone who is ever offended by words shows a startling inability to understand how communication works.
And as for the final point (Although this is also a tie in). Faith is without reason, on this we are agreed (I speak as an ex radical atheist. I went in the other direction, heh). But if someone has faith you have no right to insult them, to demean them, to ridicule them. You have no right to call them lesser simply because they believe in something you do not. Muslims have a deep emotional connection with their prophet, which is the cause of this anger. There is little you can do that is more insulting then ridicule the prophet.
I really cannot think of an equivalent. Hmmm...
Imagine someone went around shitting on every doorstep he could find and smearing shit all over the house. Imagine he did that to, say, a million people. And in the eyes of that million, he was being protected by a state, a state that also enjoys smearing shit everywhere. Now imagine you are armed and angry, so very angry, because people simply cannot understand why you are angry. Sure, killing people is not justified, but you still have to think about how people feel.
Finally (I know I already said finally. I have been spray painting all day and I feel light headed) but the slights of east versus west have been going on for far longer then you believe. I grew up in a country where people thought I was a witch due to my complexion and my red hair. Because the first gingers they ever saw out in that region were Crusaders. You cannot ignore historical slights.
I know this seems rambling, so I will tldr;
- My claim of bigotry was not directed at people like yourself who seem to be mostly rational but people like Therumancer who have been preaching genocide
- Hearsay and bullshit is bad.
- Political and economic situations are causing these deaths, religion is simply the excuse
- Words have meaning. Claiming that people choose to be offended by words is simply idiotic.
- Religion is not logical. But everyone should be treated with the same respect.
Bacon.
