Get Back Up

[maninahat]

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Oh, I can totally imagine and accept that. Even though I find it pretty annoying that people get offended by anything that isnt real. The problem is that offended people can so often be like religious fanatics. They yell and shout about being offended and demand the destruction of their item of woe.

A couple of years ago my girlfriends brother died in a terrible and quite brutal car crash. It was the worst thing that has happened in my life. But not for a tiny second did I consider to yell and ***** about car games, the speed people drive in games, or that you can mow down people in GTA or Carmageddon.

If people want to be offended by stuff, fine. But that doesnt mean that the game/movie/whatever that offends should be censored and forgotten! It just means that they should either deal with being offended or not touch that particular product!

Instead they usually yell and shout and complain to a company like "How can you depict such a horrible acts?" "Do you support rape?!" Et cetera. This leads to bad PR and the company pulls the content or falls over themselves excusing everything and anything. And mine and others entertainment pool is poorer as a result.

Let's get this clear - people don't want to be offended by anything, they simply are or they aren't. They aren't (normally) yelling or acting like fanatics, they are simply voicing their concerns about an issue that effects them. They don't necessarily want anything banned, they simply want to draw attention to the problem it presents.

If you find a movie/game offending. It is within your rights to turn it off.

And it is also within our rights to complain about it. Turning off an offensive thing isn't always enough - the damage to broader society will still be done whether you watch it or not. By complaining about it, you might convince others to stand with you on the issue, and in turn, encourage a change for the better. Of course, you don't have to agree with any such complaint.

 

[maninahat]

Square has trolled the internet magnificently and now all those indignant gamers are dirty accomplices for making that trailer a rape scene.

In the other lara rape thread (#10324031250), some poster said that the trailer is a very lazy way to create drama and he's right, but my god what drama. What free publicity.
+1 million for Square.

So you believe all publicity is good publicity? That this scene and its lousy justification won't cause some potential customers to avoid the title? I know people who are refusing to buy this game on principle, just from seeing the discussions around it.

In less highbrow locales I hear gamers talk about wanting to fail that QTE deliberately just to see what happens.

We may not be the intended audience. I won't play the game anyway, because QTEs are boring. The girls won't play it either, because they are upset, but what about all those teens and basement dwellers?
Tomb Raider sold on tits and ass. I reckon the company knows what audience they are targetting.

Maybe so, but then this shift towards telling more "mature", serious narratives suggests at least some attempt to get away from appealing to the lowest common denominator. Unfortunately, "mature" to a lot of people seems to mean "darker and gritty", which in turn means "cussing, slow motion gore, and rape scenes" (ironically becoming gratuitous and immature again). I get the impression that this title is falling into the same trap.

 

[ThunderCavalier]

I do agree with how the trailer definitely shows some good things about the game. While I can see the rape implications, I really don't mind, because it's kinda showing how this protagonist, unlike many other protagonists of recent years, is actually 'vulnerable' and you can see that they're not exactly the one man army that drills through most video games.

Because let's be honest. When you're drilling past bad guys with your giant minigun in CoD, stopping to catch your breath and wipe the jam off of your face every five seconds by ducking behind a crate, you don't feel like some guy that just happens to be quicker than the mook behind that crate just a few meters ahead of you. No, instead you feel like a true demigod, like your own personal Rambo, and that the fodder only serves to be made a deposit of a couple pounds of heated lead.

Lara here feels like an actual human, which, in something like this, will definitely help the story. Let's hope now that the actual story is a step up from the last Tomb Raider stories, which were... nothing special.

 

[Pavel Andrei]

I don't see why they have to make this version darker and edgier. I don't have a problem with the idea per say, but the way it's being marketed makes me think they don't know what to do with the character. I mean, they make such a big deal about how this Lara is a different, developed character, but all I've seen is her getting hurt continuously. That does not make a deep character. I think the reason most people are offended is not because of her getting hurt, specifically, but rather that she is pointlessly hurt, just to elicit a reaction from us, instead of it being part of a character arc, as some have said. All this so called "exploitation" seems like an attention grabbing gimmick.

I might just be a little pessimistic, but when you make it such a big deal that you are going to re-imagine the character, and then talk at length about how it's gonna be so awesome when she's getting hurt, people can't help but form opinions.

I'm worried that this is just gonna be one of those "We're till relevant, see. BLOOD, PAIN, RAPE." hard-boiled reboots that people will be too ashamed to talk about in a few years.

 

[LetalisK]

I'm adding another post to the "Yay Susan!" side. I'm going to add more, though, which comes from my comments from another thread.

God forbid we have a protagonist that isn't Blank Slate Badass #3346 and a character that actually experiences human emotions and is not fucking invincible. Normally, this would be a good thing and celebrated for breaking the mold and creating an actual character instead of a cardboard cut-out. But, the beating she takes is the only thing focused on while completely ignoring that throughout the entire trailer she shows herself to still be quite competent, strong, skillful, and braver than any person has any right to be.

 

[ExileNZ]

This kind of article is why I love Susan Arendt.

(In a totally platonic, keep-your-clothes-on kinda way)

 

[TitanAura]

I've read probably a dozen books where a main female character was implicitly raped and never have I felt the need to tell the author that it didn't belong or that it was wrong to include it. There's nothing about this that doesn't follow a certain logic within the context of the trailer. The guy was going to rape her. Period. He doesn't succeed, but it was going to happen. And even if she WAS raped, it would be absolutely horrifying but could still conceivably serve as a character moment IF HANDLED CORRECTLY. It can be done and I believe games are capable of being just as mature as other mediums to convey it.

HOWEVER, if it was instead used as an excuse to show Lara in sexually explicit poses for blatant, horrifying fanservice.... I'd probably punch my own teeth out.

 

[Otters34]

Personally, I agree at least partially with what Susan Arendt said in regards to the trailer. Not going to mention what I didn't because this argument is as fruitless as any other the internet bears.

One thing that DOES bother me about it(besides how hilarious it gets as misfortune after misfortune is piled on, bitterly realistic in the cases of some people though it is), is that this doesn't seem like it has anything to do with exploring weird old places that have all kinds of crazy monsters and awesome treasures inside. Sure, the vogue is to have an at least nominally human enemy, but unless they're planning on contrasting grubby and disgusting human evil with cold and remorseless inhuman evil, I don't see any kind of connection between "I was lost on an island and had to turn myself into a badass just to keep living" and "I hunt down fantastic treasures and face down ancient monsters, pretty much for fun and profit". Of course, it might be that this is the Secret History of Lara Croft, and all along this was when she decided to become a treasure-hunter.

Of course, a large part of me still dislikes that she HAS to have a traumatic past that 'turned her into' an awesome fighter(insofar as that is the case...) and courageous battler of evil. If she had begun a life like that of her own volition, wouldn't it be even more interesting? Seeing what kind of villains she fought, places she went, figuring out the puzzles and unraveling the riddles that got her into the business.

Not saying an examination of how normal people can become extraordinary under duress isn't interesting and fun too, but my preference is to play things to get away from depressing realities.

 

[Susan Arendt]

Personally, I agree at least partially with what Susan Arendt said in regards to the trailer. Not going to mention what I didn't because this argument is as fruitless as any other the internet bears.

One thing that DOES bother me about it(besides how hilarious it gets as misfortune after misfortune is piled on, bitterly realistic in the cases of some people though it is), is that this doesn't seem like it has anything to do with exploring weird old places that have all kinds of crazy monsters and awesome treasures inside. Sure, the vogue is to have an at least nominally human enemy, but unless they're planning on contrasting grubby and disgusting human evil with cold and remorseless inhuman evil, I don't see any kind of connection between "I was lost on an island and had to turn myself into a badass just to keep living" and "I hunt down fantastic treasures and face down ancient monsters, pretty much for fun and profit". Of course, it might be that this is the Secret History of Lara Croft, and all along this was when she decided to become a treasure-hunter.

Of course, a large part of me still dislikes that she HAS to have a traumatic past that 'turned her into' an awesome fighter(insofar as that is the case...) and courageous battler of evil. If she had begun a life like that of her own volition, wouldn't it be even more interesting? Seeing what kind of villains she fought, places she went, figuring out the puzzles and unraveling the riddles that got her into the business.

Not saying an examination of how normal people can become extraordinary under duress isn't interesting and fun too, but my preference is to play things to get away from depressing realities.

That's a really interesting point, and not one I've heard much. What I do know, from the little I know about the game, is that Lara didn't end up on that island by accident, and (if I remember correctly) something at least somewhat supernatural is going on. Now, if in the course of fighting wolves and bandits Lara also happens to encounter some kind of island hoodoo weirdness, that could certainly explain how the interest was sparked in her, and how she ended up pursuing such matters around the world.

Much of that is speculation, of course, but I think you've addressed something quite interesting.

 

[theultimateend]

A picture does not hurt anyone. Entertainment is voluntary.

While rape might feel worse at the time than a bullet to the head are you saying that you'd rather die than be raped?

I find it utterly retarded that people can get so up in arms over the DEPICTION of the rape of PIXELS. With all the other crazy shit we do in games, this is so light its nothing. I've sawed people in half in games. SAWED THEM IN HALF. Thats not quick, clean or sanitized.

You find it retarded that people get upset over depictions of rape. I take it you or someone you care about hasn't been raped? Or murdered? Are you that oblivious that you can't imagine a game offending someone who had? I don't think rape or murder in entertainment should be banned by any means, but I think we shouldn't act so cavalier about such a serious issue that effects real people. I don't require you to be offended, all you have to do is accept that this might bother people besides yourself.

I'm more of the persuasion that I don't care if something offends somebody.

There was a time when that was the end of it. "I'm offended." "Oh well, sucks to be you." "Yeah...it does..."

These days we act like that means there should be some reaction, some apology, etc. It's nonsense, everything offends somebody somewhere.

But that's neither pro nor con to your point, more a related observation. I was nearly murdered as a kid, and I mean that quite literally, but I don't find myself throwing a fit everytime someone makes a film with murder splattered about like its nothing.

But there are others that I suspect are very sensitive to it, and really that's as far as that train goes. They are offended and that's that, changing anything because of offense is a poor action and really reinforces bad habits.

 

[agiganticpanda]

Rape in fiction has become the lazy writer's way to give a female character motivation.

I'm pretty sure the whole trapped on an island, tied upside down, friend strung up and killed, team killed and or captured was motivation enough. It isn't rape here, but the attempt of rape and in context, was "Rape is bad, look at this obvious bad guy trying to abuse his power on Laura. It's already shown that this guy is a bad guy and he'll do what bad men do to pretty women bound when nobody is looking." With so MUCH rape that happens in the world, might it be a common story arc because it also happens a lot?

But she is a woman in a video game and, as we know, women can't feel any sort of real emotional trauma unless it involves rape. It is demeaning to women to say that they are so one-dimensional that the only way to make their motivations mean anything is to press the rape button.

Again, there is plenty of agency on the case of Laura before this occurs.

What this eventually results in is rape being treated no differently than getting a headache and Kickstarter projects attracting misogynist hordes because it becomes so commonplace that people get desensitized to what it is.

Really? I'm pretty sure that Rape = Bad isn't a message we should complain about in terms of it being too much. Now, if rape was the ONLY reason why she was doing what she was doing, yes lazy writing. Although the attempt of rape was what, 5 seconds of the trailer with plenty of other things happening that could give her motivation to escape the island and get revenge for her team.

 

[Phasmal]

I'll admit I still don't know how to feel about this.
Personally I feel it was not needed as an addition to Lara (and I agree with people saying it might have been better done in new IP).

As for that guys comments about `protecting Lara`, I think that was just dumb.
It certainly implies that guys cant identify with a female protagonist, which isn't true at all. Most games I'm forced to play as the opposite gender, and it doesn't really effect immersion (except when I forget and then get called `Sir` in-game or something).

 

[Darkness665]

Good point.

I have always had trouble with my character or the protagonist getting raped or close to it. No experience with it personally on any level even with female friends and family but it has always bothered me. To the point where I quit reading a book series because of it. I quit buying any books by that female author. I no longer trust her.

I would have less trouble with the Tomb Raider knowing about it up front. That and a certain S. Ardent told me to get back up.

In response to the how to save yourself books we need a video game where you play as a girl. The goal is to see how many men you can get killed that are trying to protect, help or impress you. I'd play that. Oh! I left my favorite purse over by the oak tree. The thunderstorm scares me so would the big strong man go fetch it for me? Zap ... 250XP!

 

[DeathQuaker]

I definitely appreciate Susan Arendt's perspective that the trailer highlights Lara Croft's perseverance and push to survive. And those are indeed admirable traits.

I wish, though, that Ms. Arendt might have addressed the following:

The complaints I've read about the Tomb Raider trailer revolve around the idea that Lara Croft has to have been a victim/near-victim in order to become badass. And that there is an implication in some contemporary pop culture, the Tomb Raider trailer included, that women who are badass MUST have been raped/near raped/assaulted in some way or else they'd never become the kind of heroes they are. I think that's where the accusations of sexism come in, the idea that a woman can't become a hero unless she's suffered in a very specific way first. Or even that a woman character isn't interesting unless she's suffered in a very specific way.

And THAT is a problematic idea. IF Tomb Raider is playing into that trope, it does muddy the waters to say the very, very least.

I wish I could remember the source--but it's the Internet, I tend to read things and move on--but I remember reading on another game site the suggestion that the reason why people enjoyed Lara was because basically she just decided to be an adventurer and went out and did it. And there's no reason, especially within the video game fantasy world, why she can't just be a fun-loving adventurer. In a way, in this day and age, that absolute freedom from dark-and-edginess is in a way, more novel and refreshing. Sure, it makes it easier to leave character background shallow, and that is in itself problematic. But I think some of the complaints about Lara have boiled down to, "She was just FUN. Why couldn't you leave well enough alone?" For a character designed to entertain, I think it's a fair argument, even if there's also a lot of room for disagreement. (I think I did

Bringing around to the beginning of the discussion, again, I think it is an extremely good point that to see a woman get up again and fight past the odds IS inspiring. And it IS, I absolutely agree. I just also think the questions "why Lara Croft specifically?" and "why do we do this, especially with the implied sexual assault, to female heroes in particular?" are good concerns to examine.

As for the game itself, I'll guess we'll see how they handle it as a whole when it comes out.

 

[rbstewart7263]

I definitely appreciate Susan Arendt's perspective that the trailer highlights Lara Croft's perseverance and push to survive. And those are indeed admirable traits.

I wish, though, that Ms. Arendt might have addressed the following:

The complaints I've read about the Tomb Raider trailer revolve around the idea that Lara Croft has to have been a victim/near-victim in order to become badass. And that there is an implication in some contemporary pop culture, the Tomb Raider trailer included, that women who are badass MUST have been raped/near raped/assaulted in some way or else they'd never become the kind of heroes they are. I think that's where the accusations of sexism come in, the idea that a woman can't become a hero unless she's suffered in a very specific way first. Or even that a woman character isn't interesting unless she's suffered in a very specific way.

And THAT is a problematic idea. IF Tomb Raider is playing into that trope, it does muddy the waters to say the very, very least.

I wish I could remember the source--but it's the Internet, I tend to read things and move on--but I remember reading on another game site the suggestion that the reason why people enjoyed Lara was because basically she just decided to be an adventurer and went out and did it. And there's no reason, especially within the video game fantasy world, why she can't just be a fun-loving adventurer. In a way, in this day and age, that absolute freedom from dark-and-edginess is in a way, more novel and refreshing. Sure, it makes it easier to leave character background shallow, and that is in itself problematic. But I think some of the complaints about Lara have boiled down to, "She was just FUN. Why couldn't you leave well enough alone?" For a character designed to entertain, I think it's a fair argument, even if there's also a lot of room for disagreement. (I think I did

Bringing around to the beginning of the discussion, again, I think it is an extremely good point that to see a woman get up again and fight past the odds IS inspiring. And it IS, I absolutely agree. I just also think the questions "why Lara Croft specifically?" and "why do we do this, especially with the implied sexual assault, to female heroes in particular?" are good concerns to examine.

As for the game itself, I'll guess we'll see how they handle it as a whole when it comes out.

Susan I love the article I feel like your one of the few people looking at things from a more open and positive light.


No just because a blogger says that this is what the media is doing doesnt really prove it.

You can find just as many examples of both actually im hard pressed to find a movie that makes the "rape makes you tough" trope that everyone says is a trope and indeed i doubt its a real trope at all. just a kneejerk reaction from those looking to find something wrong with everything that everyone pushes out. Kill bill stands out in my mind as well as the female theatre proprieter from inglourious basterds. two tarantino films granted but still when it comes too " She gets raped she gets tough." I honestly cant think of a one.


For once i think these guys actually care. watch any interviews of the team that are developing this game. Anyone who has interviewed them will tell you that these guys have a sincerity to there efforts. to imply the contrary is gender politics plain and simple.

 

[Meight08]

I'll admit I still don't know how to feel about this.
Personally I feel it was not needed as an addition to Lara (and I agree with people saying it might have been better done in new IP).

As for that guys comments about `protecting Lara`, I think that was just dumb.
It certainly implies that guys cant identify with a female protagonist, which isn't true at all. Most games I'm forced to play as the opposite gender, and it doesn't really effect immersion (except when I forget and then get called `Sir` in-game or something).

Would you want to protect lara?
Because that is what protecting lara also means protecting her, they didn't say they meant guys wanting to protect lara they meant people wanting to protect lara.
Edit: Crap forgot this thread was on the old side sorry for the necro.

 

[Phasmal]

I'll admit I still don't know how to feel about this.
Personally I feel it was not needed as an addition to Lara (and I agree with people saying it might have been better done in new IP).

As for that guys comments about `protecting Lara`, I think that was just dumb.
It certainly implies that guys cant identify with a female protagonist, which isn't true at all. Most games I'm forced to play as the opposite gender, and it doesn't really effect immersion (except when I forget and then get called `Sir` in-game or something).

Would you want to protect lara?
Because that is what protecting lara also means protecting her, they didn't say they meant guys wanting to protect lara they meant people wanting to protect lara.
Edit: Crap forgot this thread was on the old side sorry for the necro.

I know this is a necro but I hate not answering people.
The issue is with the wording.
When you're playing... say... Assassin's Creed and you accidentally floss a nearby citizen's brain with your knife- you aren't thinking `Whoops! Ezio is in trouble, I should get him out of it`.
You're thinking `Oh fuck I'm in trouble runrunrun`.
The issue is that it suggests you aren't Lara. You're just `helping` her (in fact that was part of the quote somewhere, I'm sure).
To be honest, it was shitty wording with a silly implication.

 

[Susan Arendt]

I definitely appreciate Susan Arendt's perspective that the trailer highlights Lara Croft's perseverance and push to survive. And those are indeed admirable traits.

I wish, though, that Ms. Arendt might have addressed the following:

The complaints I've read about the Tomb Raider trailer revolve around the idea that Lara Croft has to have been a victim/near-victim in order to become badass. And that there is an implication in some contemporary pop culture, the Tomb Raider trailer included, that women who are badass MUST have been raped/near raped/assaulted in some way or else they'd never become the kind of heroes they are. I think that's where the accusations of sexism come in, the idea that a woman can't become a hero unless she's suffered in a very specific way first. Or even that a woman character isn't interesting unless she's suffered in a very specific way.

And THAT is a problematic idea. IF Tomb Raider is playing into that trope, it does muddy the waters to say the very, very least.

I wish I could remember the source--but it's the Internet, I tend to read things and move on--but I remember reading on another game site the suggestion that the reason why people enjoyed Lara was because basically she just decided to be an adventurer and went out and did it. And there's no reason, especially within the video game fantasy world, why she can't just be a fun-loving adventurer. In a way, in this day and age, that absolute freedom from dark-and-edginess is in a way, more novel and refreshing. Sure, it makes it easier to leave character background shallow, and that is in itself problematic. But I think some of the complaints about Lara have boiled down to, "She was just FUN. Why couldn't you leave well enough alone?" For a character designed to entertain, I think it's a fair argument, even if there's also a lot of room for disagreement. (I think I did

Bringing around to the beginning of the discussion, again, I think it is an extremely good point that to see a woman get up again and fight past the odds IS inspiring. And it IS, I absolutely agree. I just also think the questions "why Lara Croft specifically?" and "why do we do this, especially with the implied sexual assault, to female heroes in particular?" are good concerns to examine.

As for the game itself, I'll guess we'll see how they handle it as a whole when it comes out.

Sorry, didn't see this until today. Happy to address that.

I disagree that the game puts forth the notion that Lara has to be a victim in order to become a badass, and I very much disagree that rape must be part of some magic formula to make a woman strong. Given the circumstances in which she finds herself, the threat of rape makes perfect contextual sense. She's a young, frightened girl surrounded by bad men. What else do you think they're going to scare her with? Yes, it's an obvious go-to, but it's also one that works. Even if it wouldn't work, the typical man would think it would work.

People must overcome hardship in order to become stronger, though what "hardship" means varies from person to person. If you're never presented with a challenge, you never have anything to overcome, after all. For most of us, that challenge is school, work, raising a happy family, and maybe keeping our lawn alive in the middle of a hot summer. We also have to deal with loss, and grief, and our own stupidity - the normal things. Lara as a character, however, is meant to be more than us. Someone destined to have extraordinary adventures surely therefore has extraordinary challenges to overcome.

Within the context of Tomb Raider, those extraordinary challenges being physical makes perfect sense, as Lara is a very physical creature. One doesn't suddenly wake up one day able to shake off a fall off a rock face - one has to acquire the ability to shrug off pain that the average person would howl over. Right now, for example, I have a dime-sized burn on my face from a shell casing that got caught in my glasses. At the time, it was so shocking and upsetting to me that I started crying. The burn is still distracting me. You think Lara has time to be worried about something that minor? Hell, no. She's been toughened up by her experiences, and those experiences had to start somewhere.

I think it's disingenuous to suggest that the threat of rape is contextually unsound in this scenario. Was it necessary? No, I don't think it was, not at all. I don't think the narrative would've suffered at all had that confrontation not been included. But I also don't think it being there is out of line.

Now, the argument that none of this was necessary at all, and that Lara could've just been a fun-loving adventurer...I certainly see that line of thinking, and while I don't share it, I understand where it's coming from. Many people are disenchanted with this "gritty" reboot simply because it seems to be at odds with the overall tenor of the franchise. I get that, but I also think that Tomb Raider was long past stale and needed a bit of a refocus.