I used to really like the quest markers but then I played Skyrim and took an arrow to the knee...
I'll show myself out.
I'll show myself out.
Get Rid of the Dang Arrows
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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IIRC games do offer the option to turn the HUD off... I've done it in Assassin's Creed Revelations, and I had no idea where I was. But after a few days of that, I was able to make my way through Constantinople. Not sure how well I would do now as it has been a while since I was in that game, but I think I'd do okay, at least with that top section of the map.
Something that was really nice was that you can mark a destination on your map, and when you go into eagle vision mode you see this giant glowing beacon telling you where to go.
Some games need it, and other don't. Some games you'd probably want to leave a few days for the player to get used to the map before they do anything. Simple missions like, go to the store and buy some milk, deliver this letter to the mayors office. However stuff like that gets boring very quickly. Game developers want to grab players' attention, not make them feel like they're doing chores. Players want to jump right into the action, so to get them to the action, we have the HUD that tells players every single thing about the game.
It is a real shame because after I turned the HUD off, I realized how much detail and placement went into the world, and was able to appreciate how far the draw distance goes, also little patterns that get repeated around the world.
I've told people in the past that video games are fun things to look at, but when you're playing, you only see the boarders until it is time for combat.
Something that was really nice was that you can mark a destination on your map, and when you go into eagle vision mode you see this giant glowing beacon telling you where to go.
Some games need it, and other don't. Some games you'd probably want to leave a few days for the player to get used to the map before they do anything. Simple missions like, go to the store and buy some milk, deliver this letter to the mayors office. However stuff like that gets boring very quickly. Game developers want to grab players' attention, not make them feel like they're doing chores. Players want to jump right into the action, so to get them to the action, we have the HUD that tells players every single thing about the game.
It is a real shame because after I turned the HUD off, I realized how much detail and placement went into the world, and was able to appreciate how far the draw distance goes, also little patterns that get repeated around the world.
I've told people in the past that video games are fun things to look at, but when you're playing, you only see the boarders until it is time for combat.
That's the entire point, isn't it? Because of the bloody markers, the designers don't need to type 'Kill 10 Rabid Pheasants located to the north of town' because they know the player will just follow the marker. Because of that, the location of the pheasants is a metagame aspect, never interacting with the game world, what diminishes it. Likewise, an arrow showing you where to go to reach your goal lets designers be lazy with the level design - instead of creating a level that clearly informs the player where they should go they just create whatever and the markers lead them on. (Conversely, play Slime Bomb Knight [http://sandbox.yoyogames.com/games/207152/download] and marvel at how each screen's goal is always clear even though the game only works because it forbids itself from using any sort of video game indicator.)Jodah said:
Markers are a crutch, and if you start walking with a crutch when you don't need one you'll end up needing it soon.
As far as I'm concerned, arrows should all be done away with and if you're confused about where to go that is the game's fault. The game world should lend itself to showing you where you need to go. Ask NPCs for directions, look at a map, look at street signs, whatever. But even worse is the use of arrows in linear games, often in addition to an NPC telling you to do that very same thing and the objective appearing in text on the screen. Most recently this has thoroughly annoyed me in the first part of AC3, having to climb up a wall in a theatre and getting a marker for the exact column I should climb, despite it being the only climbable column due to absence of a light fixture. In other words, I could have figured it out myself very easily. I can't help but be annoyed when a game thinks I need handholding every step of the way and gives me no credit for having the basic skills that all humans have.
Dwarf Fortress taught me otherwise. Those who use crutches before needing it end up stronger than those who don't, and are better off if they do lose their ability to move without a crutch. And, you can throw or put the crutch away, and still benefit from it forever. Conversely, it also teaches you that using a crutch when you don't need it hinders you as much as when you do, and even if you throw it away, it stays with you. But then again, Dwarf Fortress is sillyThe Random One said:
Unfortunately about 90% of the side quests give you no indication of where the maguffin you need to find is, apart from "a cave" or "bandit camp" and because the quests are randomised they don't even give names of the places, and you can't work off prior experience.z121231211 said:
I was once asked by a captain to retrieve some cargo that had just been stolen by pirates in the sea at the Northern coast, and the cargo was in the bottom of a bandit & vampire infested cave... in pretty much the most south-western corner of the map: a totally mountainous area nowhere near the sea. Or the argonian in Windhelm who told me she lost her amulet while exploring a cave, said amulet turned out to be at the bottom of a dragur dungeon... I find it unlikely she accidentally managed to wander all the way down there. The random nature leads to those types of really unlikely circumstances, which doesn't help immersion.
As Yahtzee said, giving directions of "Down the path, take a left at the windmill" I think would have made a huge difference to playability of the main quests, instead of the hunt the arrow session that all Skyrim quests inevitably become, and removing the randomised location of the maguffin hunting would have allowed them to make more interesting and engaging sidequests too as they could add something extra rather than Get location from questgiver, get to chest, take item, return item to questgiver.
I hear that they actually noted this and changed the Dawnguard quests accordingly to include more exploration, but it's a shame it hadn't been present in the vanilla game from the start.
This is actually a very serious problem that needs rectifying. I have always said the "Minimap" is ruining gaming, and it has.. and continues to do so. Mainly because, as Yahtzee said, you spend the majority of your time gluing your eyes to a 4-square inch circle instead of playing.
When it's not the "Minimap" it's the stupid arrows. The biggest offender for this, in my opinion, is Skyrim. Why Skyrim? Well, because Skyrim already has all the resources in place that would be necessary to guide the players through meta-exploration or adventure. I've known no other game that puts in so many useless world objects, or hundreds of readable books.
What happens when you read a book in Skyrim, detailing a lost treasure begging to be found? It puts a "quest marker" in your hud when you close that book. Ugh. Instead, the path should be explained in the story, by either simple instruction, all the way to a complex adventure that chains together a volume of books in a series to complete the journey for your reward. You know, adventure game stuff. It's not possible to just turn off the relevant hud features and quest by longhand, because there is no alternative. Lazy. I haven't decided if it's Bethesda being lazy, or development time constraints.. or they fear the average player will scoff at having to be an active player, thus less sales and such. I fear it is the latter...
Remember what Red Dead Redemption did with the treasure maps? Very simple. They showed you a small hand-drawn map displaying landmarks. Instead of looking at the hud, or stupid minimap, you spent the majority of that time scanning the beautiful horizon and countryside that was beautifully drawn and meticulously detailed. That was the only way to complete the treasure tasks, no waypoints. Unless of course you wiki'd it, you pussy.
When it's not the "Minimap" it's the stupid arrows. The biggest offender for this, in my opinion, is Skyrim. Why Skyrim? Well, because Skyrim already has all the resources in place that would be necessary to guide the players through meta-exploration or adventure. I've known no other game that puts in so many useless world objects, or hundreds of readable books.
What happens when you read a book in Skyrim, detailing a lost treasure begging to be found? It puts a "quest marker" in your hud when you close that book. Ugh. Instead, the path should be explained in the story, by either simple instruction, all the way to a complex adventure that chains together a volume of books in a series to complete the journey for your reward. You know, adventure game stuff. It's not possible to just turn off the relevant hud features and quest by longhand, because there is no alternative. Lazy. I haven't decided if it's Bethesda being lazy, or development time constraints.. or they fear the average player will scoff at having to be an active player, thus less sales and such. I fear it is the latter...
Remember what Red Dead Redemption did with the treasure maps? Very simple. They showed you a small hand-drawn map displaying landmarks. Instead of looking at the hud, or stupid minimap, you spent the majority of that time scanning the beautiful horizon and countryside that was beautifully drawn and meticulously detailed. That was the only way to complete the treasure tasks, no waypoints. Unless of course you wiki'd it, you pussy.
Am I the only gamer who looks at the mini map when I want to look at the mini map, and not find that his eyes are glued to it?
I'm playing the hell out of AC3 right now, and I've think I've ran past feathers at least 6 or more times, because well, I'M NOT LOOKING AT THE FUCKING MINI MAP!
Was was partly annoyed in Skyrim with all the arrows, but I was glad that I was able to remove all but one or 2 I've wanted to mark (and mostly I would only remark it because I was getting lost) after the 4 bear/dragon/NPC attack that had me turned around.
But as with arrows, it mostly feeds into the ADD crowd whom don't want to listen to directions, they just want to know where they want to go the moment a quest/task/objective is given to them.
I'm playing the hell out of AC3 right now, and I've think I've ran past feathers at least 6 or more times, because well, I'M NOT LOOKING AT THE FUCKING MINI MAP!
Was was partly annoyed in Skyrim with all the arrows, but I was glad that I was able to remove all but one or 2 I've wanted to mark (and mostly I would only remark it because I was getting lost) after the 4 bear/dragon/NPC attack that had me turned around.
But as with arrows, it mostly feeds into the ADD crowd whom don't want to listen to directions, they just want to know where they want to go the moment a quest/task/objective is given to them.
I think they serve a good purpose in a lot of games. But the bullshit that is corridor shooters is a joke. I have seen some playing of the new MoH game, and the environments are tiny and not in need of them, it's fuckin' stupid. I like how they did it on games like Deadspace. You hit a button and it gives you a quick temporary look of where to go. It's totally optional and it doesn't detract from your ability or want to explore in the game. I just hope they don't fuck it up on DS3, but I won't hold my breath.
Something I'd like to see in games would he a HUD powered by items. For example Halflife, there was no HUD until you put on the suit. Things like that. A tutorial level where you had a a HUD then the accident that destroys the suit - so the player has no HUD anymore and has to explore. Or alternatively, if it were an RPG, you could buy equipment for certain aspects of the HUD. Compass and map for direction, medical implant to show HP or whatever. This would allow the player to decide what is really useful for them.
Back in the day it used to be done with smart level design, colour palettes and or lighting. Not only did you know where you needed to go, but you had a sense you were going somewhere, and you knew where you were. These days no effort is put in. /EndCrankyKongRantZhukov said:
Having said that, Left 4 Dead 2 is a pretty good example of using good level design to guide a player - letting them explore while not holding their hand (in the context of the pacing of that game).
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying I don't want a game that removes markers then just says "Go kill 10 Rabid Pheasants." I don't want to see devs taking the statement "get rid of the dang arrows" to mean just remove markers and let us figure it out without any clues what-so-ever.The Random One said:
I always liked games that just gave you a map (or filled one in as you visited places) and then let you make your own marks on it. To me, that keeps the fun of pen and paper without the hassle of actually getting any and still gives you the convenience of knowing where you've been and want to go.
I had the same problem with Skyrim, whenever you were near something undiscovered it would show up on the compass. No way to turn it off, in the end I had to cover the compass on my monitor because there was no way to turn it off and I wanted to Explore Damnit!
Oh no it bloody didn't.floppylobster said:
The level design in older games sucked donkeys. The layouts made no sense, they were structured like a maze rather than a real-world environment. A significant amount of gameplay time was spent wandering about trying to figure out exactly which bullshit obscure path I was meant to take or which random button would open a door on the other side of the level.
Say what you will about arrows and objective markers, I'll take them any day over the obtuse bullshit of the old days.
I'd like to bring up the undisputed king of exploration games (Guild Wars 2) and even though everything is marked on the minimap, figuring out how to GET there can be nothing short of an absolute pain that could potentially take hours (see: Vistas).