Girl Power in the UK Games Industry

[stompy]

Wooo! Flower power!

When men earn more than women it's a bad thing. When the situation is reversed it's "fantastic".

Or maybe they earn money, because.. they deserve it and are actually better than what their male counterparts do? Gasp.

I see so few people actually thinking about doing anything or mentioning the fact that on average, women still make less money than their male counterparts for doing the exact same thing. Once it's the other way around (in only a very small and tiny way), the world is suddenly not large enough. Rivers of tears start flowing!

Not in my country. Doing various math we can actually conclude that women earn MORE for the exact same thing.

Are you factoring things like maternity leave and the like when working out that women earn more than men?

 

[Hunde Des Krieg]

Well, do the women hold higher positions than the men? Are there more women than men? Do the women work harder? WHY exactly do they make more?

 

[Mariena]

Wooo! Flower power!

When men earn more than women it's a bad thing. When the situation is reversed it's "fantastic".

Or maybe they earn money, because.. they deserve it and are actually better than what their male counterparts do? Gasp.

I see so few people actually thinking about doing anything or mentioning the fact that on average, women still make less money than their male counterparts for doing the exact same thing. Once it's the other way around (in only a very small and tiny way), the world is suddenly not large enough. Rivers of tears start flowing!

Stop being a blockhead, you silly scoundrel.

Wow, that's so much nicer than before the edit, wasn't it? Way to make an intellectual comeback.

Or maybe they earn money, because.. they deserve it and are actually better than what their male counterparts do? Gasp.

I see so few people actually thinking about doing anything or mentioning the fact that on average, women still make less money than their male counterparts for doing the exact same thing. Once it's the other way around (in only a very small and tiny way), the world is suddenly not large enough. Rivers of tears start flowing!

That there is hypocrisy, you realise? You dismiss offhandedly the concept that here women might be earning more than men, then proceed to moan about how we're not paying enough attention to the situation when it's the other way round.

I'm talking about equal tasks. Whether this survey is talking about the same, I can't tell. This survey is talking about "women in the UK games industry are making more money than their male counterparts". It doesn't say if they're doing the exact same thing. IF they are, then it wouldn't be fair on the men. Yet they could earn money because they're actually better than men for whatever they're doing. There is no reason given for the imbalance.

Still, why does no man seem to care when it's women making less money than men, yet when it is the other way around it's all tears and cries. We're talking about 53 people here. "SCANDALOUS! YOU WANT EQUALITY, NOW THIS?!"

Tell you what: Start doing something about it.

Wooo! Flower power!

When men earn more than women it's a bad thing. When the situation is reversed it's "fantastic".

Or maybe they earn money, because.. they deserve it and are actually better than what their male counterparts do? Gasp.

I see so few people actually thinking about doing anything or mentioning the fact that on average, women still make less money than their male counterparts for doing the exact same thing. Once it's the other way around (in only a very small and tiny way), the world is suddenly not large enough. Rivers of tears start flowing!

Not in my country. Doing various math we can actually conclude that women earn MORE for the exact same thing.

I've always loved the Finnish, and this is just another reason.

 

[mark_n_b]

This particular career pay study is a heaping load of BS by the by. The only reason that woman in the game industry on average make more than the men is (and we will ignore the fact that there is a greatly reduced number from which to base the average upon) because the women in the industry work in the higher paid business aspects (accounting and HR) and marketing. Throw a couple more female 3D modelers and programmers and game designers (positions which are gauged as a matter of course in the industry) and things will start to balance out pretty quick, there is a huge likelihood that it will prove similar to the sexist norm (even though I have issues with that I have larger issues with the type of misrepresentation this study exemplifies)

Wooo! Flower power!

When men earn more than women it's a bad thing. When the situation is reversed it's "fantastic".

Or maybe they earn money, because.. they deserve it and are actually better than what their male counterparts do? Gasp.

And yet in the very same breath you suggest that when the coin is flipped it's sexism. There is a reason this study says women make more then men (explained above) and yet you seem satisfied with the idea that the game industry believes women less competent with in the trenches development work. The positive result, we get studies that claim women earn more in the game industry (let's compare that to the salaries of men with the same job titles) the negative results, we get no major female figures in the game design industry. Seriously, name three famous female game designers. I can think of Roberta Williams and John Romero.

 

[VonBonBon]

You know, in spite of my overwhelming masculinity, I only wish people complained this much with regards to the ninety-five percent of gender inequality aimed squarely at the forehead of womankind.

 

[Galletea]

That makes a change. Not exactly a win for equality, but nice to see an exception for once.

 

[Zac_Dai]

I can understand what Eggo means about the "oppressed white male" when I read stuff like this.

"Well this kind of pisses me off, not that I don't think that it's a good idea to encourage more women to go into the gaming industry, but more because it's unfair on the men. I'm doing a computer games development degree at the moment and I'd like to think that everyone would earn the same regardless of gender."

 

[Erana]

Or maybe they earn money, because.. they deserve it and are actually better than what their male counterparts do? Gasp.

I see so few people actually thinking about doing anything or mentioning the fact that on average, women still make less money than their male counterparts for doing the exact same thing. Once it's the other way around (in only a very small and tiny way), the world is suddenly not large enough. Rivers of tears start flowing!

That there is hypocrisy, you realise? You dismiss offhandedly the concept that here women might be earning more than men, then proceed to moan about how we're not paying enough attention to the situation when it's the other way round.

Why is it that we aren't allowed to point out that men make more money on the dollar just because of a one industry exception? Until you can prove to me that their higher average pay is due solely to their gender, then you have some grounding.
Mariena has a good point: When you're a minority in an industry, you usually work harder to prove your competency. If there are only a handful of women in the industry, and they worked their asses off for their pay, then it is highly possible that they are misconstruding the averages.
Of course, it is always possible that they just get paid more. But there are usually reasons for exceptions, so I'm trying to logically figure this out.

 

[mokes310]

Meh... 528 people is too small a sample size IMHO, so if 53 women(10%) wages were averaged, it wouldnt take much for one or two women with really high salaries to raise the calculated wage for women up.

I'd have to agree with you. 528 vs the entire industry doesn't provide an accurate look at the true figures. In addition to that, what about the number of women in more white collar roles like accounting and marketing? Are they included in this study?

 

[Singing Gremlin]

Why is it that we aren't allowed to point out that men make more money on the dollar just because of a one industry exception? Until you can prove to me that their higher average pay is due solely to their gender, then you have some grounding.
Mariena has a good point: When you're a minority in an industry, you usually work harder to prove your competency. If there are only a handful of women in the industry, and they worked their asses off for their pay, then it is highly possible that they are misconstruding the averages.
Of course, it is always possible that they just get paid more. But there are usually reasons for exceptions, so I'm trying to logically figure this out.

Oh, I entirely agree with the point. In this case it's almost certain that the women are aiming higher while blokes are generally happier just to be in the gaming industry, I'm not denying that. All I'm saying is that it's all well and good preaching equality for your gender but it's far too easy to create a double standard while doing so; Mariena did dismiss women earning more offhandedly.

Not in my country. Doing various math we can actually conclude that women earn MORE for the exact same thing.

I've always loved the Finnish, and this is just another reason.

And that. See? Women earning more, right there, she considers a GOOD thing. But it's a terrible, terrible crime when men earn more. I am all for equality, just some people care more about themselves not being lower than the actual concept of equality.

Tell you what: Start doing something about it.

And finally, this. QED. It's our job to ensure our equality? Yet you're mortally offended when we, as men, don't spend all our time campaigning and demanding and making sure you get equality? There are huge levels of hypocrisy here. What you seem to be reluctant to understand is that for equality to happen, both genders need to work together for it! It's not some competition to see who can get more equal first!

 

[beddo]

If it's any consolation, the average salary in the game industry is significantly higher than the national average.

That's a ridiculous point. That would be like saying a woman gets paid less as a doctor but don't worry, you'll still earn more than the average person. It's just discriminatory.

Pay should in no way be based on a person's gender. In respect to that I doubt that this is actually going on.

However, what I expect is that the figures are distorted by gender preference towards different job positions as well as some other factors. As only 10% of the people questioned were women it is more likely that the big earners would outweigh the effect of the lower earners. In the larger sample the lower earners bring the average down more effectively. I'd really need to see the raw data to be able to make any decent conclusions though.

 

[Mariena]

Not in my country. Doing various math we can actually conclude that women earn MORE for the exact same thing.

I've always loved the Finnish, and this is just another reason.

And that. See? Women earning more, right there, she considers a GOOD thing. But it's a terrible, terrible crime when men earn more. I am all for equality, just some people care more about themselves not being lower than the actual concept of equality.

I guess smileys and jokes don't work anymore. Boy, you sure get your knickers up in a twist, don't you?

But hey, consider this. It's 53 women in one industry, vs all the other men in all the other industries. There is no reason given why they earn more, just that they CAN be better, and thus earn more. That seems fair, doesn't it? Maybe they're in completely different positions. Who knows? You can't tell that from the survey.

Also, let's reverse it. Men earning more, right there, nobody gives a crap about. But it's a terrible, terrible crime when women (53, nonetheless, and even that isn't proven.. once again) earn more. Then everyone screams EQUALITY! EQUALITY!

And finally, this. QED. It's our job to ensure our equality? Yet you're mortally offended when we, as men, don't spend all our time campaigning and demanding and making sure you get equality? There are huge levels of hypocrisy here. What you seem to be reluctant to understand is that for equality to happen, both genders need to work together for it! It's not some competition to see who can get more equal first!

That's all well and good, but the actual bigger problem is still that men make more money for the same amount of work, etc etc. Or are these 53 women a threat, purely out of principle? .. That is, IF they actually make more money because they're female.

Why is it that we aren't allowed to point out that men make more money on the dollar just because of a one industry exception? Until you can prove to me that their higher average pay is due solely to their gender, then you have some grounding.

That's all.

 

[Mariena]

This particular career pay study is a heaping load of BS by the by. The only reason that woman in the game industry on average make more than the men is (and we will ignore the fact that there is a greatly reduced number from which to base the average upon) because the women in the industry work in the higher paid business aspects (accounting and HR) and marketing. Throw a couple more female 3D modelers and programmers and game designers (positions which are gauged as a matter of course in the industry) and things will start to balance out pretty quick, there is a huge likelihood that it will prove similar to the sexist norm (even though I have issues with that I have larger issues with the type of misrepresentation this study exemplifies)

Wooo! Flower power!

When men earn more than women it's a bad thing. When the situation is reversed it's "fantastic".

Or maybe they earn money, because.. they deserve it and are actually better than what their male counterparts do? Gasp.

And yet in the very same breath you suggest that when the coin is flipped it's sexism. There is a reason this study says women make more then men (explained above) and yet you seem satisfied with the idea that the game industry believes women less competent with in the trenches development work. The positive result, we get studies that claim women earn more in the game industry (let's compare that to the salaries of men with the same job titles) the negative results, we get no major female figures in the game design industry. Seriously, name three famous female game designers. I can think of Roberta Williams and John Romero.

John Romero sounds awfully male, though. But hey, then I can think of the third. Jade Raymond.

 

[Singing Gremlin]

I'm quite simply not going to rise to this because you're ignoring my overall point. Equality, great. You have my support to the ends of the earth to get women the same pay as men for doing the same job. But until you can apply the same morals to the opposite situation, you're not fighting for equality, just serving your own ends under the pretence of a noble cause.

 

[Logan Westbrook]

If it's any consolation, the average salary in the game industry is significantly higher than the national average.

That's a ridiculous point. That would be like saying a woman gets paid less as a doctor but don't worry, you'll still earn more than the average person. It's just discriminatory.

No, it would be a similar point, but not the same at all.

Nowhere does it say that everyone in the survey did the same job. What the survey, and by extension my story says, is that on average, the jobs that women do in the UK games industry pay more than the jobs that men do.

I think people are seeing discrimination where it doesn't necessarily exist.

 

[beddo]

If it's any consolation, the average salary in the game industry is significantly higher than the national average.

That's a ridiculous point. That would be like saying a woman gets paid less as a doctor but don't worry, you'll still earn more than the average person. It's just discriminatory.

No, it would be a similar point, but not the same at all.

Nowhere does it say that everyone in the survey did the same job. What the survey, and by extension my story says, is that on average, the jobs that women do in the UK games industry pay more than the jobs that men do.

I think people are seeing discrimination where it doesn't necessarily exist.

I think you have misunderstood me. I was using an analogy, saying it was like the situation I described. My point was that you cannot justify discrimination by stating that the discriminated party is still in a better position than the average person.

I then countered that point by saying that what we are likely seeing is a combination of gender preferences in job roles and simple but natural distortion in the statistics by the differing sample sizes; of which only 10% were women.

I was not suggesting that all people do the same job, rather, that as there were more men the distribution of the low end jobs among men, such as QA bring down the male average. However, that is just an assumption on my end, like I said, I would need the raw data to see the value and validity of the statement within the article.

EDIT: To clarify, I was saying discrimination is bad and inexcusable but I doubt that what we're really seeing is a result from discrimination, that is more a result of the sample used.

 

[Logan Westbrook]

If it's any consolation, the average salary in the game industry is significantly higher than the national average.

That's a ridiculous point. That would be like saying a woman gets paid less as a doctor but don't worry, you'll still earn more than the average person. It's just discriminatory.

No, it would be a similar point, but not the same at all.

Nowhere does it say that everyone in the survey did the same job. What the survey, and by extension my story says, is that on average, the jobs that women do in the UK games industry pay more than the jobs that men do.

I think people are seeing discrimination where it doesn't necessarily exist.

I think you have misunderstood me. I was using an analogy, saying it was like the situation I described. My point was that you cannot justify discrimination by stating that the discriminated party is still in a better position than the average person.

I wasn't trying to justify discrimination, especially as in this case I don't think there really is any, I was trying to offer consolation, which apparently I'm not all that good at.

EDIT: You do raise a good point though.

 

[beddo]

If it's any consolation, the average salary in the game industry is significantly higher than the national average.

That's a ridiculous point. That would be like saying a woman gets paid less as a doctor but don't worry, you'll still earn more than the average person. It's just discriminatory.

No, it would be a similar point, but not the same at all.

Nowhere does it say that everyone in the survey did the same job. What the survey, and by extension my story says, is that on average, the jobs that women do in the UK games industry pay more than the jobs that men do.

I think people are seeing discrimination where it doesn't necessarily exist.

I think you have misunderstood me. I was using an analogy, saying it was like the situation I described. My point was that you cannot justify discrimination by stating that the discriminated party is still in a better position than the average person.

I wasn't trying to justify discrimination, especially as in this case I don't think there really is any, I was trying to offer consolation, which apparently I'm not all that good at.

EDIT: You do raise a good point though.

Fair play, just a small misunderstanding