Glitch =! Skill... ?

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WhiteTiger225

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soundoflights said:
Hmmm Glitching in general is bad and should not be used or needed in competitive play .....BUT.....
If your good at a game you should know everything about it including the glitches you just shouldn't be a douche and use them.
I make it a point to learn every glitch so I can DESTROY people that use them.
The issue is though.. sadly.. nintendo being a big example (They always bend to even a bit of peer pressure) it has actually come to effect them.

Thanks to the many exploits and glitches in MElee and Brawl for example, tournaments are now a watered down product. No items (Because people using fox don't want to actually have to work for a win against people NOT using fox) and 4/5s of the arenas are banned (Either because fox can shoot and run in them, or because the glitch moves become nearly unstoppable in these areas)

A recent game I played ended up banning literally half the game from tournaments because they would rather cater to glitchers then fair players.

It basically comes down too...

In football (american, you can replace this with soccer/football if anywhere else)let's say the field designer messes up, and leaves a narrow 1 foot gap in the field borders. A player could SKILLFULLY exploit this and run out into the audience with the ball and become basically untouchable and hold it up there (Keeping it in play) for the entire match until the opposing team loses because the exploiter scored 1 point the entire match and the other team scored none.

It takes skill to get through that little gap but.. in the end.. does it still make you a skilled player, or a skilled cheater? Does an oversight in programming truly count as "They meant to leave it there"?
 

Hurr Durr Derp

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Before I get this rant going, I just want to make it understood that not every glitch gives the player that uses it an advantage over someone who doesn't use it. In fact, most glitches don't. Finding a glitch that does give you an advantage, or (ab)using a glitch in such a way that it gives you an advantage, is often half the fun.

On the whole skill vs no skill debate, it doesn't matter.

Yes, some glitches take a lot of skill to pull of. In some cases even more than winning the game in a 'legit' way. Some glitches require detailled knowledge of the game's mechanics or frame-perfect timing to be used. These glitches can be out of reach to 99.9% of all players, because they simply lack the knowledge and skill to use them. Other glitches are really easy to take advantage of and any kiddie who can look up a tutorial vid on YouTube can pull it off. But, as I said, it hardly matters.

First of all, you should realise that what most people call 'glitches' are a completely different beast from hacks or cheats. They're basically things in the game that the programmers didn't foresee, either because there's an error in the code or because some things (moves, weapons, items) are used in ways that they didn't anticipate. This is important. Why? Because despite the fact that the programmers didn't foresee this behaviour in the game, glitches are a part of the game. All butthurt aside, this cannot be denied. If the developers want to see the glitch fixed they'll release a patch, but until they do the glitch is simply an unexpected part of the game.

So, if you have an ingame tool available to you that is in no way a cheat or a hack, why should you not use it? It'd be like playing a Street Fighter game and banning all throwing moves or all projectile moves or whatever (and yes, I know that there are people who play with comparable rules, sadly that's not even a joke). "But..." some of you will say "...those glitches are used to get an unfair advantage over me!" Which is completely irrelevant. If the game had one weapon you were awesomely good with, and as long as you had that weapon you could beat 90% of the other players, would it be fair if someone told you not to use that weapon? Of course not. Especially not since everyone could pick that weapon as well and try to be as good as you. If that weapon was truely overpowered and everyone would start using that weapon because of it, that would be the game's fault for being so unbalanced, not the player's fault for picking that weapon. The exact same thing goes for glitches. If there's a glitch in the game that gives players who use it an advantage over players who don't, that's the game's fault, not the players'.

There will always be noobs who expect some amount of chivalry on the virtual battlefield. That's fine, but the problem is that their idea of chivalry is way off. It's "I don't like this glitch (almost always because they can't beat it and/or can't pull it off themselves) so you shouldn't use it". And if it's not a glitch, it's a weapon that's overpowered or a map that's unbalanced or anything they can throw up as an excuse why they can't win. Because -let's face it- if a glitch didn't give those players an advantage over you, there would be no reason to complain, right?

So, what I'm taking way too much text to say is: Using 'skill' as an excuse is irrelevant and frankly more than a little bit lame. The 'correct' excuse is: Learn to play with it and/or counter it, wait until the devs fix it (most people seem to read this as "whine endlessly on the official forums about it"), or only play against people you know won't abuse glitches. Just stop complaining about it to the players who use it. No matter how immature they are about it, it doesn't help anyone if you start being just as immature about it yourself.
 

Jazzyluv2

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Vern said:
If you're not modifying the code of the game, then more power to you to exploit a glitch. If the developers missed something, and find it game breaking enough then they'll fix it. Until then it's fair game. I'm tired of the "boo-hoo, I can't play my game the way I want to play it" mentality. The other person is playing the game how they want to play it, using things coded into the game. Stop crying and man up. Things don't always go the way you want, and if you want the excuse "I play videogames to have fun!" then realize that the people fragging your ass also play videogames to have fun. If you aren't having fun because someone is killing you in an FPS, then maybe you should play another game, or play single player. Some of the funnest times I've had in on-line games is when someone was exploiting a bug, and finally figuring out how to get around it and kill them. Overcoming challenges can be very satisfying.
Thank you, i thought i was the only person on this website that gave a fuck about countering a glitch.

Using many glitches are VERY hard, and take some skill.

ok, now heres something i want you all to do that think glitches take no skill

download quakeworld from http://nquake.sourceforge.net/

its an easy installer

hit "next" on pak1.pak

then type devmap tricks into the space when you load up the game, try to get past the first 2 jumps, much less the whole thing. to access that if you go to menu hit the tilde key beside the 1 and then type "devmap tricks"

http://videos.quakeworld.nu/video/guide-bunnyjumping/

if your having trouble

guy above me, great explanation, though skill does matter, cause if the glitch creates deep and unique gameplay, then it does matter from the players stand point
 

Spygon

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glitching is cheating end of.The game is not being played how the developers designed it just because they made a mistake it doesnt mean its part of how game works.

If you did this in a real life sport you would be kicked out on your ass like you should in public games.
 

Jazzyluv2

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Spygon said:
glitching is cheating end of.The game is not being played how the developers designed it just because they made a mistake it doesnt mean its part of how game works.

If you did this in a real life sport you would be kicked out on your ass like you should in public games.
ok, say in real life, there was a "skill" you could use that makes you fly. And everyone could learn(read it) it, there are no built in rules against it within the game of say.... soccer.

So lets say, one player knows how to fly, and he uses this to help his team win, his team thinks this is a good way to win, so they start doing it. then all the sudden this new team comes out of nowhere with the ability to fly. They dominate, the other teams cant beat the team that can fly, and this team pushes on to win more and more games. Eventually more players learn how to fly, and the game evolves and changes, the original rules are there for soccer, but the game is different cause of this new style. The only way to counter flying is to fly yourself. So you almost have a new game appear out of the same rules.

Or all the people that don't want to learn cry that a new rule should be made that said no flying is allowed almost like no hitting is allowed

Let the players push the game along the rules that are allowed so that the game actually EVOLVES and changes beyond the stupid developers dreams
 

LeonLethality

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in GunZ most if not all styles are made up of nothing but glitches... so it depends on the game I guess
 

Theron Julius

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My philosophy on any matter such as this is "N00bs, they are teh epics haxors" and then shout profanity at said glitcher while getting pwned
 

kylejj91

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What people have to keep in mind there are two kinds of glitches.

A)The clever use of game mechanics b)Exploits in game mechanics

Examples of A
1) Starcraft's worker and air unit stacking.
2) SSBM wavedashing/canceling/ets
3) Halo2's B X R

Examples of B
1) Falling out of level/Clipping through walls
2) infinites in fighting games
3) All hacks, Map hacks, autoaims, ets

Most clever use of game mechanics can be countered and easily learned by all. They also heighten the skill ceiling of a game or add new elements and in some very rare cases further balance the game.

Exploits in a game by nature can not be countered can give far to big of an advantage

OT

I like how most of the references to SSBM/SSBB complain about the no item rules and removed maps. Do you want to know why they do that. It's done for game balance and to take luck out of the equation.
 

soundoflights

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WhiteTiger225 said:
soundoflights said:
Hmmm Glitching in general is bad and should not be used or needed in competitive play .....BUT.....
If your good at a game you should know everything about it including the glitches you just shouldn't be a douche and use them.
I make it a point to learn every glitch so I can DESTROY people that use them.
The issue is though.. sadly.. nintendo being a big example (They always bend to even a bit of peer pressure) it has actually come to effect them.

Thanks to the many exploits and glitches in MElee and Brawl for example, tournaments are now a watered down product. No items (Because people using fox don't want to actually have to work for a win against people NOT using fox) and 4/5s of the arenas are banned (Either because fox can shoot and run in them, or because the glitch moves become nearly unstoppable in these areas)

A recent game I played ended up banning literally half the game from tournaments because they would rather cater to glitchers then fair players.

It basically comes down too...

In football (american, you can replace this with soccer/football if anywhere else)let's say the field designer messes up, and leaves a narrow 1 foot gap in the field borders. A player could SKILLFULLY exploit this and run out into the audience with the ball and become basically untouchable and hold it up there (Keeping it in play) for the entire match until the opposing team loses because the exploiter scored 1 point the entire match and the other team scored none.

It takes skill to get through that little gap but.. in the end.. does it still make you a skilled player, or a skilled cheater? Does an oversight in programming truly count as "They meant to leave it there"?
Well those are obvious glitches that should not be used but I would still learn them just for a situation like that of the football game. Say said glitcher jumps into the stands, I want to be able to follow him into the stands and kick him in his noob head. Normally after you beat a glitcher at their own game they tend to get bored and leave. However anything to broken like nocliping, instakills, unfollowable glitchs that immediately end games. I expect these to be fixed by the game developer or I simply wont play their game.
 

Jazzyluv2

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items in SSB? really, in competitive play...

The reason that flat maps are used is because its a battle of SKILL, not who can get the best item. Glitches in SSBM are amazingly fun to watch and make the game faster and better.
 

open trap

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Actully i met this fly thing in fallout that was invincable and pretty badass. So that proves that when you are beating fallout the games true superority will show through.
 

open trap

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SikOseph said:
WhiteTiger225 said:
*sigh*
Glitches can and should be exploitable in multiplayer play. I don't know about brawl, but melee was a much better game for the glitches to add to your armoury and many an fps has been hugely improved by the bunny-hopping and other common 'glitches' that whiners whine about. It is very rare that a glitch is so overpowered that it cannot be countered. Just get over it and learn to adapt.
going under the map is not A FAIR STRATAGY. It gives the player an ability to kill anyone and not be killed himselfe.
 

OrenjiJusu

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Mar 24, 2009
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i only glitch if it makes my character model do something funny and pointless, or if it lets me see something weird.
 

Jonny49

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Hell no. I remember playing Metroid Prime: Hunters online and getting my ass beat down by glitcher after glitcher, and let me tell you, it pissed me off to the ends of the Earth. Luckily console games don't have as many glitches do, but it's even more annoying when I come across one. I just don't see the fun in sitting in a rock for 10 minutes waiting for someone to come along, where's the satisfaction of beating your opponent down with...oh, I dunno...skill? Fuck glitchers and those who do it should have their console thrown into a fire and get kicked in the nuts.
 

Hurr Durr Derp

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kylejj91 said:
Examples of B
1) Falling out of level/Clipping through walls
2) infinites in fighting games
3) All hacks, Map hacks, autoaims, ets
Putting these three in the same group is misleading to say the least.

#1 and #2 are the result of bad programming or game design resulting in the game not working as planned.

#3 is the result of the player tampering with the way the game works resulting in the game not working as planned.

There's a world of difference between those two. The first two are the developer's fault, and are an unintended part of the game. It's the developer's responsibility to fix those things if they consider it to be a problem. These 'glitches' are available to everyone who plays the game, and at higher-level play the player should and will know about these things, even if he's not planning on using them. The third is something that was never part of the game, intentional or otherwise, and is used to give a single player an advantage that others can't know about since it can never be done playing the game normally.

#1 and #2 are just playing to win. #3 is blatantly cheating.
 

Tonimata

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Kollega said:
Anyone who tells this... [HEADING=3]...fails EPICALLY at justification of their own unfair actions.[/HEADING]
And at life, if, as they so claim, it takes that much skill to perform glitches.
Not that I failed when jumping on top of the plane on L4D, although that is more of an exploit...
 

Spygon

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Jazzyluv2 said:
Spygon said:
glitching is cheating end of.The game is not being played how the developers designed it just because they made a mistake it doesnt mean its part of how game works.

If you did this in a real life sport you would be kicked out on your ass like you should in public games.
ok, say in real life, there was a "skill" you could use that makes you fly. And everyone could learn(read it) it, there are no built in rules against it within the game of say.... soccer.

So lets say, one player knows how to fly, and he uses this to help his team win, his team thinks this is a good way to win, so they start doing it. then all the sudden this new team comes out of nowhere with the ability to fly. They dominate, the other teams cant beat the team that can fly, and this team pushes on to win more and more games. Eventually more players learn how to fly, and the game evolves and changes, the original rules are there for soccer, but the game is different cause of this new style. The only way to counter flying is to fly yourself. So you almost have a new game appear out of the same rules.

Or all the people that don't want to learn cry that a new rule should be made that said no flying is allowed almost like no hitting is allowed

Let the players push the game along the rules that are allowed so that the game actually EVOLVES and changes beyond the stupid developers dreams
The rules are there to stop you having an unfair advantage over others and to makes sure the game has a structure.These rules are put in so people can enjoy the game as it takes skill to be better than others while using the same rules.If they didnt football would just turn into a free for all no rule warzone.If you want to play "flying football" they would create there own leagues not take over the original game. It is like turning up to a football match with a ball on a string it isnt against the rules but you do not do it as that isnt how football is played.
 

soulasylum85

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glitching takes absolutely no skill and the only reason to use them is to give yourself an advantage because you obviously cant compete without cheating. glitching is exactly that, cheating, its dishonest and IMO you deserve to have your account banned for it so the rest of us can enjoy the game we paid our hard earned money for without having to deal with a bunch of cheating assholes
 

Hurr Durr Derp

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Spygon said:
The rules are there to stop you having an unfair advantage over others and to makes sure the game has a structure.These rules are put in so people can enjoy the game as it takes skill to be better than others while using the same rules.If they didnt football would just turn into a free for all no rule warzone.If you want to play "flying football" they would create there own leagues not take over the original game. It is like turning up to a football match with a ball on a string it isnt against the rules but you do not do it as that isnt how football is played.
Except that real life is limitless, so you need those rules to have any kind of game.

In a videogame, the limits of the game are the rules you play by. Going beyond the limits of the game (by using hacks, aimbots, etc) is the same as breaking the rules: cheating. But glitches are still a part of the game, so it's not breaking any rules except for your own 'fairness' rules, which are completely arbitrary. Take fighting games for example. Most fighting games that are played on a high level go beyond what the developers intended. People find new ways to chain moves (sometimes leading to the much-dreaded infinite combos), learn that some moves are extremely powerful if used in a certain way, etc. A more specific example is the infamous Wavedashing in SSMB. While technically not a glitch, it is an unexpected result of the way the game works, unintended by the developers. But it still became an important part of the way the game is played on higher levels. This is a natural part of the way the metagame evolves on higher levels. The same goes for glitches.

Saying that "anything goes" in a videogame is the same thing as scrapping all rules in a real-life game is just a show of ignorance. The game itself is 'the rules', and it doesn't need your own personal set of rules superimposed on it.

Also, I love how people like you keep bringing up the words "unfair advantage". It's not unfair, because you could do the same thing they do. If someone is more skilled than you and beats you, would you call that 'unfair' as well? Because obviously, the guy had an advantage over you and you couldn't beat him. The thought that he's good because he just puts a little more time and effort into learning the game is apparently irrelevant to you, even though you could do exactly the same thing and be just as good, given enough practice. That's not unfair, that's just a lame excuse for being a sore loser.