Going back to being just plain, normal gamers.

Jamcie Kerbizz

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Well that went places it shouldn't.
I suppose some of people still need few more years before looping back to being normal. Just enjoying the hobby. Without making sure, that what they enjoy in it is 'O-K to like' or measure if it 'is sufficiently correct' on current social value acceptance scale or looking and jumping on others - infidels, that may like in it some 'other facet' available etc.
 

Silvanus

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Silentpony said:
And at that point, I simply lose interest. And my larger point is basically if the inclusive character doesn't add anything to story, character or gameplay, then they're pointless. They don't take away, sure. But they don't add anything, and there's no real reason to have them. And I don't get the controversy of not having them. Likewise though, I don't get the controversy of having them.
Take Kren for example. Dragon Age would have been the exact same game if Kren wasn't in it. He added nothing. However, Inquisition would have been the exact same game if every area have a dozen Krens in different corners, being Kren. Because he adds nothing.
In most games with open(ish) worlds and extensive(ish) casts, you'll encounter countless characters who could be described as largely "one-note"; huge numbers of characters will mention only one passing thing about their profession, or location, or what-have-you to the protagonist. That's somewhat inevitable, with worlds populated to add flavour, but without endless dialogue.

I object, then, when it only becomes a point of criticism when they happen to bring up attraction or gender identity, or something else that can loosely be connected to liberalism or other political bug-bears of the current gaming community. It's no more "one-note" than the guy who refers solely to his shield, or to his profession as a smith, yet it's somehow more objectionable.

It may not add a huge amount, but it's not meant to; flavour-text is rarely meant to add anything but a little flavour. That's its purpose.

I'm definitely in favour of better written characters that actually make the effort to go into these topics in greater depth. That is more important. But this is not an either/or situation, and the former does not replace the latter. Just like we can have quests that focus intensely on somebody's professional smith-work, and we can also have somebody for whom smith-work is just the basis for a little bit of flavour-text.

---

...And, that all aside, representation-- even very simple verbal or visual representation-- can be quite affirming when you've hardly ever had it before.

Vendor-Lazarus said:
I live near a capital city in one of the most progressive countries, yet I've never known or even seen a transperson in the flesh and only a handful of gay people.
You will have seen more than you think. You can only be counting those you know to be trans, or you know to be gay-- but how often is it going to be recognisable in passing in a stranger? You will have passed a fairly significant number of people from both groups in the street, and simply never known it, because why would you?

Particularly since same-sex couples very often do not feel secure enough to show affection in public, even holding hands.
 

Vendor-Lazarus

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Silvanus said:
Vendor-Lazarus said:
I live near a capital city in one of the most progressive countries, yet I've never known or even seen a transperson in the flesh and only a handful of gay people.
You will have seen more than you think. You can only be counting those you know to be trans, or you know to be gay-- but how often is it going to be recognisable in passing in a stranger? You will have passed a fairly significant number of people from both groups in the street, and simply never known it, because why would you?

Particularly since same-sex couples very often do not feel secure enough to show affection in public, even holding hands.
You are quite correct. Especially when taking a single comment out of context, when I was making a point about both visibility and proportion together with quotas.
Homosexual people are absolutely people, and should enjoy every right and freedom as every other person does.
LGBTQ people are still an outlier in the human norm, but gets shoved into everything just for the sake of filling a politically correct quota. That or because of the "goodnes(TM)" factor bringing their "plight" into focus.
Like they can't stand on their own legs and have to be helped. That is discrimination and prejudice.
 

Avnger

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Vendor-Lazarus said:
Silvanus said:
Vendor-Lazarus said:
I live near a capital city in one of the most progressive countries, yet I've never known or even seen a transperson in the flesh and only a handful of gay people.
You will have seen more than you think. You can only be counting those you know to be trans, or you know to be gay-- but how often is it going to be recognisable in passing in a stranger? You will have passed a fairly significant number of people from both groups in the street, and simply never known it, because why would you?

Particularly since same-sex couples very often do not feel secure enough to show affection in public, even holding hands.
You are quite correct. Especially when taking a single comment out of context, when I was making a point about both visibility and proportion together with quotas.
Homosexual people are absolutely people, and should enjoy every right and freedom as every other person does.
LGBTQ people are still an outlier in the human norm, but gets shoved into everything just for the sake of filling a politically correct quota. That or because of the "goodnes(TM)" factor bringing their "plight" into focus.
Like they can't stand on their own legs and have to be helped. That is discrimination and prejudice.
You know what I hate? How white people with red hair are shoved into everything. I mean they only account for less than 2% of the human population. Damn those quotas!!?!?!?!?!!!

Oh wait... I forgot; we're only supposed to complain about non-white or LGBT people. Everyone not in one of those categories is "normal" and therefore perfectly allowed in any situation, manner, or representation (unless its a bad one cause then its SJW propaganda[footnote]See the outrage about *gasp* shooting Nazis in Wolfenstein or the violent religious Christianity-based cult of white people in Far Cry 5[/footnote]).
 

RaikuFA

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I don't even consider myself a gamer anymore because of the nonstop gatekeeping associated with it. And when I do complain about gatekeeping it's just ignored.
 

Vendor-Lazarus

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Avnger said:
Vendor-Lazarus said:
Silvanus said:
Vendor-Lazarus said:
I live near a capital city in one of the most progressive countries, yet I've never known or even seen a transperson in the flesh and only a handful of gay people.
You will have seen more than you think. You can only be counting those you know to be trans, or you know to be gay-- but how often is it going to be recognisable in passing in a stranger? You will have passed a fairly significant number of people from both groups in the street, and simply never known it, because why would you?

Particularly since same-sex couples very often do not feel secure enough to show affection in public, even holding hands.
You are quite correct. Especially when taking a single comment out of context, when I was making a point about both visibility and proportion together with quotas.
Homosexual people are absolutely people, and should enjoy every right and freedom as every other person does.
LGBTQ people are still an outlier in the human norm, but gets shoved into everything just for the sake of filling a politically correct quota. That or because of the "goodnes(TM)" factor bringing their "plight" into focus.
Like they can't stand on their own legs and have to be helped. That is discrimination and prejudice.
You know what I hate? How white people with red hair are shoved into everything. I mean they only account for less than 2% of the human population. Damn those quotas!!?!?!?!?!!!

Oh wait... I forgot; we're only supposed to complain about non-white or LGBT people. Everyone not in one of those categories is "normal" and therefore perfectly allowed in any situation, manner, or representation (unless its a bad one cause then its SJW propaganda[footnote]See the outrage about *gasp* shooting Nazis in Wolfenstein or the violent religious Christianity-based cult of white people in Far Cry 5[/footnote]).
Please take your strawman away and instead show me where redheaded people are being demanded in quotas.
Besides, I find your comment minimizing the hate, discrimination and prejudice Irish people suffered in the past.
The myth that they have no soul is still widespread, despite the fact that no people have souls at all.
I also think you diminish the number of people that can and do color their hair and find it pleasing to view.
Redheaded people also aren't seen as whole identity in contrast to LGBTQ people.

I fear that we may have gone way off-topic though and for that I digress and egress.
 

Tsun Tzu

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Dreiko said:
I was gonna read what you said but was too distracted by Horo, bad choice of gif, I mean, good, but bad if you wanted me to read your post XD.
It's a sentence and two pictures, m8!

...But I completely understand.
 

Silvanus

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Vendor-Lazarus said:
You are quite correct. Especially when taking a single comment out of context, when I was making a point about both visibility and proportion together with quotas.
Homosexual people are absolutely people, and should enjoy every right and freedom as every other person does.
LGBTQ people are still an outlier in the human norm, but gets shoved into everything just for the sake of filling a politically correct quota. That or because of the "goodnes(TM)" factor bringing their "plight" into focus.
Like they can't stand on their own legs and have to be helped. That is discrimination and prejudice.
People complain about it being "shoved into everything", even though the vast, vast majority of characters are still non-gay, and non-trans.

It's not enough for 98% of characters to be straight? Even that tiny percentage is egregious? No, fuck that. The small amount of representation that exists is not "shoving it into everything", and it would take a complete loss of perspective to see it that way.
 

Vendor-Lazarus

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Silvanus said:
Vendor-Lazarus said:
You are quite correct. Especially when taking a single comment out of context, when I was making a point about both visibility and proportion together with quotas.
Homosexual people are absolutely people, and should enjoy every right and freedom as every other person does.
LGBTQ people are still an outlier in the human norm, but gets shoved into everything just for the sake of filling a politically correct quota. That or because of the "goodnes(TM)" factor bringing their "plight" into focus.
Like they can't stand on their own legs and have to be helped. That is discrimination and prejudice.
People complain about it being "shoved into everything", even though the vast, vast majority of characters are still non-gay, and non-trans.

It's not enough for 98% of characters to be straight? Even that tiny percentage is egregious? No, fuck that. The small amount of representation that exists is not "shoving it into everything", and it would take a complete loss of perspective to see it that way.
The vast vast majority of characters are undoubtedly just a face. They are blank slates.
That you project them to be non-gay say more about your views than not.
How about working some of that magic of projection the other way?
Suddenly, entire genres are filled with your preferred type.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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Vendor-Lazarus said:
The vast vast majority of characters are undoubtedly just a face. They are blank slates.
That you project them to be non-gay say more about your views than not.
How about working some of that magic of projection the other way?
Suddenly, entire genres are filled with your preferred type.
Only except it's not because people will make the claim of 'tokenism' when people are want to represent trans characters. What's the real argument here? I mean so far in the thread we've had rage at a character, pretending like it's Anita's fault that said character was entirely not a blank face. Going so far as to accuse her of the general bullshit of AAA VG industry.

So far it feels like pulling teeth actually coaxing why a character is bad given that it actually had some characterization.

Seems vidya is the only place this particular vein of ugly rhetoric seems to crop up. After all, no one cares iun boardgaming when people populate it withadiversity of chracter options. The so-called 'dreaded tokenism' ... which seems empty when I compare it to other games I've played, and where nobody cared.

These games have national and international tournament events and yet doesn't seem to be problem. Moreover I'm finding myself playing those games precisely because it's not a problem amongst other gamers.
 

Lufia Erim

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The Decapitated Centaur said:
I'm not even sure what that's about (I have no intention to watch youtube arguments or whatever) but quite frankly normal people never had an issue with this. I just go around freely considering myself a gamer and not worrying about this stuff outside these forums
some words have negative and positive connotations. It's how language works.
 

maninahat

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I stopped the video after the first two minutes, where the guy spent the entire time not talking about being okay to be a gamer, and instead used the time to dig up a long dead horse to give it yet another flogging. He shows us a clip of Anita Sarkeesian where she talks about shitheads who won't stop bothering her with the same lazy arguments over and over, and then uses it to complain about Anita not engaging with him over his arguments. Perceptive one, that Troy.

Also, what the hell is a plain normal gamer?
 

Silvanus

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Vendor-Lazarus said:
The vast vast majority of characters are undoubtedly just a face. They are blank slates.
That you project them to be non-gay say more about your views than not.
How about working some of that magic of projection the other way?
Suddenly, entire genres are filled with your preferred type.
I'm talking (obviously) about the vast majority of characters-- not just in games, but in literature and film and across other media-- who do display some kind of attraction or romantic partnership.

When it comes up, it is almost always opposite-sex. And yet people get their knickers in a twist when a tiny minority of them aren't opposite-sex, and it's suddenly "shoving it in everywhere". It's a stunning lack of perspective.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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Lufia Erim said:
The Decapitated Centaur said:
I'm not even sure what that's about (I have no intention to watch youtube arguments or whatever) but quite frankly normal people never had an issue with this. I just go around freely considering myself a gamer and not worrying about this stuff outside these forums
some words have negative and positive connotations. It's how language works.
I mean you do understand that saying that on its own is dumb, right? I don't believe gamer has any general connotation that's changed due to this shit.
 

Avnger

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The only ones causing people to stop "being just plain normal gamers" and to go online frothing at the mouth with rage that some nobody woman made a youtube series or some non-white guy working at a game company made a tweet is themselves.