Going Native
- Thread starter MovieBob
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Nice retrospective on this sort of story and its origins. Well done!
One of the things that appeals to me about Avatar's take on it is the unapologetic way in which the humans are depicted - as total dicks.
One of the things that appeals to me about Avatar's take on it is the unapologetic way in which the humans are depicted - as total dicks.
have you seen us? we are. I love how the developed man is always wrong in fiction... And yet, in general we don't like/appreciate nature the way that we should.BlueInkAlchemist said:
stupid law of the land...
Right at the start is this article one book popped into my head, and that was Frank Herbert's Dune. I was a little disappointed it did not get a mention, but with a trope as prevalent as this one I guess listing all the stories that had "going native" in them would be a daunting task.
Great article and great review as always Bob.
Great article and great review as always Bob.
Another less sinister reason for having a white imperialist switch sides is that it allows for an easier flow of exposition. When someone new enters a society it makes it easier for audience to identify with the protagonist because the audience also knows nothing about the society.
Great article and great ending.
Great article and great ending.
So you're saying you can comfortably judge me without ever having met me? Or are you saying white people are uniquely pre-disposed to racism? After spending so much time viewing movies are you suddenly taking a turn as a projectionist?MovieBob said:
Good as always, up until that last line, which seemed to engage in the very sort of sloppy thinking you'd just so eloquently demolished.
EDIT: After re-reading my own comment: Wow. This came off as WAY more snarky than I intended. I was just trying to do a funny little, "NO U!" for the ending. I loved the article, much love, etc.
I have never taken anybody's land, nor have any of my ancestors in the last 10 generations. We have never owned slaves either.
White guilt does not apply to me.
But, I have no problem ironically and un-ironically celebrating Thanksgiving and acknowledging that early Americans screwed the indians over a lot. And my thoughts on that:
"Should have fought harder, pussies."
Colonialism happened. It was sucky for the people we 'colonialized', but why should we be sorry about that? It happened. It ended. Reparations are worthless, because unless we just get up and leave and let the indians have their land back, nothing we give them is going to make up for it. AND WE ARE NEVER GOING TO GIVE THEM THE LAND BACK.
But they can start taking it back, one mortgage at a time with all their nifty casinoes.
White guilt does not apply to me.
But, I have no problem ironically and un-ironically celebrating Thanksgiving and acknowledging that early Americans screwed the indians over a lot. And my thoughts on that:
"Should have fought harder, pussies."
Colonialism happened. It was sucky for the people we 'colonialized', but why should we be sorry about that? It happened. It ended. Reparations are worthless, because unless we just get up and leave and let the indians have their land back, nothing we give them is going to make up for it. AND WE ARE NEVER GOING TO GIVE THEM THE LAND BACK.
But they can start taking it back, one mortgage at a time with all their nifty casinoes.
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I think it would be possible to make a much more compelling story by not having to show both sides like that altho it would definatly be harder. You would have to make it a bit more of a mystery or even horror story and there is so much you could screw up there to just eff up the whole thing its not funny.Pseudonym2 said:
I would like to say about "negative marketing" Or something that is bad, there is a saying that if any thing gets "Negative", "Hate", "Banned" by a Gov or Religion, equals someone will go see it. The other part of me still thinks the part of yes I will side with the part of the native people, with it depends. While Colonialism part of the movie and social and biological warfare(think smallpox and blankets). The problem I find is that technology is stolen form one culture to the other. While I have yet to see the movie. The part that gets me is why the natives do not steal the SMGs and so on. Native Americans did not have horses until the Colonialism times and then it became part of there world. As well as rifles and so on. Most of the time the real world is a two way street unless one side cant take advantage of technology or knowledge. Oh well hears to Colonialism the and the many many ways it forms.
Fow a worst offender how about Tom Cruise in The Last Samurai!
Anyways, anyone remember the 1996 PC sci-fi RPG Albion [http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/428/Albion.html]? It's considered abandonware now and can be downloaded legally. A few slight differences, rather than space marines your a scout pilot who's sent ahead of the corporate colony/mining mother ship to the supposedly resource rich but barren world, only to crashland and discover its lush with life and home of indigenous 'mystically in-tun with nature' cat-like people. The screenshots in the link pretty much tells it all.
I'm not bashing Cameron here just saying even in sci-fi it's been done before, and fairly recently.
Excuse me? The faults of people who just happened to inhabit the same area as I do, centuries ago, have nothing to do with me. I don't feel ashamed when I see someone with the same ethnicity as me do something bad, because descent doesn't have anything to do with it. Please keep your racism to yourself.
You do have a fair point, although I realize your intent; it's not always the best idea to attack your audience ("YOU keep thinking that, I'M above it all" =P). And if it ever is a good idea, it must be done very well or else, yeah, unsatisfactory.Shamus Young said:
However, it still really doesn't change what came before, and what came before was good stuff. I enjoy it when other people (No! I'm doing it now!) are educated, and of course it's obviously true in the light of what MovieBob said that Avatar is not hackneyed (well, it might be, but you can't say that just on the face of things); it is part of a tradition exploring this concept. Although perhaps 'exploring' might be a bit too strong a word for James Cameron, but at least making a pass at it. Personally I disagree with whitewashing colonialism as civilizing savages more than I disagree with painting all of humanity or western civilization as poopieheads, but not too much more. Both are incredibly annoying (at their core; the story and characters surrounding often more than make up the lost ground).
I think he is referring to the endless Avatar-like resource grabs that are currently happening all over the globe. Whether it be diamonds, oil, coal, lumber, etc, there are cultures all over the world being destroyed to fuel our own. And nobody is doing anything about it.Ravek said:
Or at least that was my assumption. Movie Bob can correct me if I am wrong.
I got the Fern Gully vibe from this movie too, my young sister watched the vhs of it 40 or 50 times a day, as young kids do. Maybe Cameron's kids did the same thing and elements of the movie bled into his vision?Pyode said:
From what I understand there are no musical numbers in this live action version.