Good noble aliens versus evil monstrous humans, can it work?

LordCraigus

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Chaos Marine said:
Warhammer 40K. But then again, no race in that game even comes close to being good. Humanity is... fourth in the list of evil bastards and it's struggling with the Orks for that place too.
To me Orks always seemed to be morally better than the humans, after all they have no concept of morals so are 'innocent' in a way. They live to fight, whether it's themselves or another race, at least they don't kid themselves about. Their idea of 'good' is being a worthy adversary and I've always respected that about the Orks in it's weird, alien way.

Like a lot of people I find the idea of playing as 'good' aliens against 'bad' humans very intriguing, but it'd take some writing skill to make a game where the aliens are still the 'good guys' without succumbing to human stereotype of 'good'. If you understand what I'm trying to say, Indigo Dingo sort of hit on this point.
That'd be the subtle approach at least, the blatant approach is to make a game with the cliched alien invasion plotline, but make the invaders humans and the planet being invaded an alien one.
 

Whiskyjakk

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Sion_Barzahd said:
Halo 2 sorta touched on this with the arbeiter's levels. Although they more showed the tyranny of their own system than anything else.
But that is the sort of game i'd envision for this.

I think it sounds like a great idea for a game.
I was a bit disappointed by that actually. When I saw that you could play as the arbiter I thought that meant getting to fight the humans, at least for a bit. Then they neutered the idea by just having the same old enemies as you fight when you're master chief.
 

More Fun To Compute

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Here is a left field idea for a game. Humans, Aliens and AI all get on together. Space presence is all civilian and scientific as space warships and marines are seen as a waste of resources. The challenge in the game is cooperate to survive a natural disaster, like a super massive black hole that will be a threat to everyone in 200,000 years time. Nobody gets shot by the police without trial and nobody walks up to you in the street and asks you if they should get an abortion. (ok, the last line was a Mass Effect joke but the rest is general reaction to game sci-fi plots.)
 

swift tongued

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Well. on a general rule the more kind hearted of individuals is destined to die and lose. The best depiction of alien battles is doubtlessly warhammer 40k where everyone is an asshole and the war they all started killed off any kindhearted race a long time ago.

In anycase I can't think on any examples, but it feels like this idea has been fone before.
 

More Fun To Compute

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swift tongued said:
Well. on a general rule the more kind hearted of individuals is destined to die and lose.
Actually, game theory and observation of nature tell us that cooperation is a better survival mechanism.
 

Rogthgar

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Well we already have alien heros (superman beeing the most prominent) but they mostly appear in comics, but they defend humans most of the time or like supe's looks like humans so much it wouldnt matter.

On another note i guess the lack of truely alien heroes is beacause they become harder to relate to as a game character if they look different other than humans.

Ive often wished some movie/game would come along where you reverse the roles, alien civilization defending their home from human baddies invading their planet.

But i guess those plans are far off till the games industry and hollywood get over the steriotyping thats plauged humanity since the beginning of memory.

Note on 40k: the Tau are the only really decent faction, they give everyone a chance to join them, saying no to them usually dosint provoke planetary devastation (like it will if your a human who says no to the Imerium, if your not human they wont bother asking).
 

asiepshtain

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It can work...

Think Metroid, only in the end the suit opens and you realize you're not a human. Or that you're an alien fighting armored enemies all the game then find out there are humans inside.
 

Chaos Marine

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Booze Zombie said:
Actually, how about both the aliens and the humans are evil as sin?
That's 40K.

Or, now that I think about it, the game Firewarrior is kind of like the scenario of the OP suggests. Though the aliens are attacking a human world to retrieve a kidnapped elder of their species.
 

Ryuzaki

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Nov 5, 2008
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Warhammer 40k shows a Universe where every race is evil in one way or another and is only out for its own interests. This includes the Tau, who seek only to expand their empire and have no qualms with annihilating a most of a planets population to do it.
 

omegatheta

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I have been saying exactly this for years.... i really came to realize it upon reading more than 3 pages of warcraft lore. Humans are bad...i mean like they beat the orcs....and then they enslaved them treated them like a bunch idiot hippies or something.... this idea of ALIENS R GOOD has become somewhat of a running joke between me and my friends....every time we watch...Wing commander, an alien movie, a Predator movie, and alien AND predator movie, King kong, Starship Troopers, etc.

we constantly get to the end and tell each others "you know 40 years later some lab technician translates some message sent by the aliens and discovers much to his order that the whole war was nothing more than a misunderstanding and that all the aliens wanted was a pizza or two with extra anchovies." we then laugh uncontrollably because of how silly something like that would be....hmmm i think i smell a plot twist for Airplane 3....somone get me Lloyd Bridges, Leslie Nielsen, Julie Hagerty, and Rip Torn (because we MIGHT need him to play Reagan again, or maybe a raegan clone)

anyways Aliens R Good i know because i met some once and all they wanted to do is buy some weed and eat cheetos o,O
 

Quiotu

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I'll tell you what we need. We need a game based off of the show Republican Space Rangers.

Don't know what show that is? Get GTA4 and watch the TV for a while.
 

RAKais

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whyarecarrots said:
There is a third option as well as good human/evil alien and evil human/good alien approach: the Warhammer 40k approach: present everyone as self-interested bastards willing to do whatever it takes to further their own aims.

No matter which side you look at it from, there are no 'good-guys' in the traditional sense, which to me makes it considerably more interesting:

The Imperium of Man in 40k could certainly be construed as the 'hero', simply because the great majority of fiction and fluff is written from their viewpoint and the fact that they're human makes them easier to empathise with. However, when you actually step back and look at the Imperium, it is a vicious, xenophobic, repressive regime capable of committing atrocities that seem far more in the vein of various historical dictators (this is something I feel we should tell all the 12 year olds playing Space Marines because they are 'teh go0d guiz'...)
Then, having looked at the Imperium from our perspective, looking at it from the perspective of the Imperium itself, much of what they do can be seen as reasonable and necessary: when you consider the threats faced by the Imperium from all sides by foes with no grasp of the idea of mercy, the xenophobia and brutality of the regime becomes a necessity for the survival of humanity.

The same holds true for the other races that could be viewed as 'good':

Eldar: Arrogant, cruel and utterly self-interested. Whilst they share a common enemy with the Imperium in the forces of Chaos, they are only interested in their survival and don't care how many humans have to die to save an Eldar life.

Tau: Space Communists. 'Nuff said really....

I personally find this lack of any ideological 'good' quite refreshing, and I think it's something that hasn't really been made enough of in the Dawn of War games, where, with the possible exception of the Eldar in places, very little has been made of the utterly pragmatic self-interest that defines all the factions, especially the pseudo-religious zealotry of the Space Marines, who seem to be portrayed in an almost exclusively positive light.

Anyway, I suppose the whole point of this thoroughly long winded post (Im procrastinating...) is to agree with the OP and say that I think that any game that challenges the normal perceptions of good and evil in games would be a very positive development.

edit:
Jamash said:
Warhammer 40K: Fire Warrior is a bit like that.

In that game you control a heroic alien (Fire Warrior) fighting against the 'evil', oppressive 'Imperium of Man'.

Although it can be argued that the Tau are hardly saints (but then, who is in the 40K universe?), even though they're fighting for the "Greater Good", but that's more in the fluff of WH40K and not really in the context of the game.
Ahh, don't know much about Fire Warrior, hence why I haven't talked about it above, but you make a good point.

On the subject of the Greater Good: for the Tau the Greater Good is the greater good of the Tau 'Empire' (never understood why they're calling it an empire now...): the ethereals don't care what it takes to work towards the greater good, or indeed what sacrifices are necessary. I believe that there is fluff of Tau colonists slaughtering the inhabitants of conquered Imperial worlds that refused to accept the Greater Good.
(In response to the last bit)

Yeah but at least they give them a choice. If Space Marines or imperial guard wanted to take a planet, they would exterminate everyone in the name of the emperor. If orks wanted to take a planet, theyd kill everyone because they love a good fight. If tyranids wanted to take a planet theyd eat everyone and absorb their biomass because thats what they do. If necrons wanted to take a world, it is only because they were entombed on that world and were uncovered by living things. If Dark Eldar wanted to take over a world it would be to enslave and the same goes to chaos too but theyd want to taint everything too.

Eldar and Tau are the only 'good' races really.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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It HAS been done at least once. Warhammer 40k: Fire Warrior.

Though the Imperium in the end sort of evens out because they do end up helping resolve the issues, Chaos (most of whom are human) clearly plays the role of villian.
 

whyarecarrots

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RAKais said:
(In response to the last bit)

Yeah but at least they give them a choice. If Space Marines or imperial guard wanted to take a planet, they would exterminate everyone in the name of the emperor. If orks wanted to take a planet, theyd kill everyone because they love a good fight. If tyranids wanted to take a planet theyd eat everyone and absorb their biomass because thats what they do. If necrons wanted to take a world, it is only because they were entombed on that world and were uncovered by living things. If Dark Eldar wanted to take over a world it would be to enslave and the same goes to chaos too but theyd want to taint everything too.

Eldar and Tau are the only 'good' races really.
They are only good in the sense that the Imperium is 'good'. They do what it takes for them to survive, and for their own self-aggrandisement. They don't care about the costs or the consequences to other races. To say that the Eldar are good when they will happily redirect the invasion of a hive fleet into Imperial territory in order to avoid the deaths of a small number of Eldar is just wrong. Ok, the Imperium may be, initially and ostensibly more brutal, but that's just because that's what they see as necessary for their survival: the Eldar may not take that approach, but that;sbecuase they have the ability to be far more subtle.
 

Eipok Kruden

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Benj17 said:
Eipok Kruden said:
I'd love that so much! Playing as an alien soldier fighting back against the human menace. That would be so awesome... Hopefully Killzone 3 will let you play as a Helghast.
hopefully there wont be a killzone 3
Why? Did you not like Killzone 2?
 

Benj17

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Eipok Kruden said:
Benj17 said:
Eipok Kruden said:
I'd love that so much! Playing as an alien soldier fighting back against the human menace. That would be so awesome... Hopefully Killzone 3 will let you play as a Helghast.
hopefully there wont be a killzone 3
Why? Did you not like Killzone 2?
wasn't my thing to be fair

i liked the first one, but the second one didnt click with me, just seemed dodgy in a way
 

Eipok Kruden

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Benj17 said:
Eipok Kruden said:
Benj17 said:
Eipok Kruden said:
I'd love that so much! Playing as an alien soldier fighting back against the human menace. That would be so awesome... Hopefully Killzone 3 will let you play as a Helghast.
hopefully there wont be a killzone 3
Why? Did you not like Killzone 2?
wasn't my thing to be fair

i liked the first one, but the second one didnt click with me, just seemed dodgy in a way
You liked the first one, but not the second... To be completely honest with you, that's the first time I've ever heard that. I thought the first one was ok and the second one was completely amazing. I loved how satisfying the gameplay was. Huh... Why didn't you like the second one? "just seemed dodgy in a way" doesn't actually make sense. What do you mean "dodgy in a way?"