Could be a compatibility issue with the GOG release, but the thin, flat "pew pews" and the MIDI soundtrack were definitely a weak point.Owyn_Merrilin said:
Good Old Reviews: Wing Commander 3 & 4
- Thread starter Andy Chalk
- Start date
This is true, and I've updated the review to reflect it, but the net result remains true and I think is a reflection of the move to FMV: a slavish devotion to the latest and greatest technology, before it was fully baked, gave us full 3D models that looked like absolute garbage compared to the 2D sprites of Wing Commander 1 and 2. Origin embraced technology over artistry, and the games suffered for it.Delance said:
You've got me curious, now. I'm downloading and installing my copy of it, to see if I can figure out what your issue is. I wouldn't think it'd have midi music at all -- it was on, what, 3 CD-roms originally? I would have expected CD quality music, or at least some non-redbook compliant (like maybe 8-bit instead of 16-bit) PCMs. If it /is/ general midi, there's an easy way to make that sound beautiful in general, which might be kind of important if you're going to be reviewing old games for a while: free software synths and soundfonts. The one I use for general midi compatible games is called VirtualMIDISynth, which can be found <link=http://coolsoft.altervista.org/en/virtualmidisynth>here. I use the WeedsGM3 soundfont, which is linked at the bottom of the page there, and it sounds amazing. Midi doesn't have to suck, it's just the software synth that comes with Windows is terrible.Andy Chalk said:
Also for really old games, and I mentioned this on the WC 1+2 thread, you'll want to set up with a copy of Munt, which is an MT-32 emulator. That was an early synthesizer that used a different setup than general midi, and many late 80's to early 90's games -- including the first two Wing Commanders, were built around it. In the mid 90's the Roland SC-55 took over as the synth of choice, but that used general midi and you can actually get better results using a modern softsynth and soundfont. The MT-32 used what was called LA synthesis, which was really weird and different from your standard sampled midi music, so it's not so easy to replace with a soundfont even if you could get around the issues with the instruction set being different.
The primary point of these reviews (I assume, I mostly just do it for shits and giggles) is to give people who aren't familiar with the games and how to set up things like emulators and DOSBox and so forth an idea of what's in store if they download, install and go. I'm using straight-up onboard audio with stereo speakers, as off-the-shelf as it gets, and while I think it's a relatively minor point compared to the overall lack of quality in the FMV sequences and phoned-in gameplay, it is something that people in that boat should be aware of.Owyn_Merrilin said:
I can definitely see the reasoning behind that. I'd just like to spread the word, because it's not a complicated process, it's just an extra step that pays off /a lot/ in the long run. Munt in particular gets talked about on the Dosbox forums all the time, I think they may even be hosting the official forums for the developers. And a good softsynth is just a good idea for anyone who does a lot of retro gaming, although you've got more options there. I use the one I listed because someone on these forums told me about it and it works. I think Timidity is the name of the more common one, and there's also some you can pay for, if you have the money you can spend -- I think Roland makes a few, for example.Andy Chalk said:
Alright, I installed it and played around a little. It /is/ midi music, but I just don't see what's anemic about the sound effects (which I'm using bog standard SB16 emulation for, same thing Dosbox points it at by default), and as far as the music goes, I don't see how it could be any worse than WC or WC2 out of the box, since all three of them are set to soundblaster by default. In fact pretty much every dos era game is going to have that as the default for people who don't go into the settings, unless it's so old that it defaults to PC speaker instead. But, like, the pew pews you were talking about, I didn't even bother with my stereo, I just plugged in my earbuds, and there was tons of bass in there, and the overall effect was about what I'd expect for a laser sound in a space combat game of the day. Comparing it to the X-Wing games or even Descent, they're all pretty much the same in that regard. The in flight graphics are also much smoother and more detailed than WC1, although WC2's sprites might have given it a run for their money on everything but the smoothness.
I don't know, I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not feeling the technical side of the complaints here. It's really impressive for a game of the day, and if you're the kind of person who plays old games, there's nothing on that side of things that would turn you off of it.
I don't know, I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not feeling the technical side of the complaints here. It's really impressive for a game of the day, and if you're the kind of person who plays old games, there's nothing on that side of things that would turn you off of it.
I'm not particularly calling these beacons of amazing gaming, just that the author gave a pass at all the issues with 1 and 2 while whining about pretty much the same things on 3 and 4 - and these issues weren't as bad in 3 and 4. Also, the reviews averaged around a 7/10, which in the mid 90's actually meant above average as opposed to today where a 7/10 is the lowest score you can achieve without the game being about driving big trucks.Worgen said:
Huh, gotta admit I wasn't expecting such a harsh review. I never played WC3 and I only played a few hours of WC4 at a friend's house nearly 15 years ago, so i don't have much in the way of nostalgia for these two games. However, a few months ago I bought the PS1 port of WC4 and I gotta admit that the FMVs are actually pretty good. I also watched some of the FMVs for WC3 and while I'll admit the green screen effects are kinda obvious the writing is still pretty solid, IMO.
I'll probably pick up WC1-WC4 once I finally decide on a joystick.
I'll probably pick up WC1-WC4 once I finally decide on a joystick.
I remember enjoying both games for the time- but I had a pretty high tolerance for FMV, so long as there was actual game attached rather than poorly conceived Dragon's Lair "press x to not die" or "Choose Your Own Adventure" -style just barely sufficient to segue between video clips.
I do remember getting rather tired of certain wingman chatter, though.
"Yeah, action is what the Flashman needs." nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod
"Yeah, action is what the Flashman needs." nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod
"Yeah, action is what the Flashman needs." nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod
"Yeah, action is what the Flashman needs." nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod
"Yeah, action is what the-" LOCK ON FRIENDLY! FIRE ALL MISSILES!
I do remember getting rather tired of certain wingman chatter, though.
"Yeah, action is what the Flashman needs." nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod
"Yeah, action is what the Flashman needs." nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod
"Yeah, action is what the Flashman needs." nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod
"Yeah, action is what the Flashman needs." nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod
"Yeah, action is what the-" LOCK ON FRIENDLY! FIRE ALL MISSILES!
Do you have WC4 by any chance? If so, and you feel like installing it, take it for a run and see if you have serious (like, SERIOUS) volume balance issues between the FMV and gameplay segments. I had to turn the volume way up for FMV bits, and then back down when the combat started.Owyn_Merrilin said:
I do have it, but I have to download it so I can't quickly check and see if I have the problem. However, the forums are full of threads from people who have either this exact problem, or a variation of it where they have no sound at all in the cutscenes. Apparently the solution is to install a program called AC3 filter.Andy Chalk said:
<link=http://www.gog.com/forum/wing_commander_series/nz17s_wing_commander_4_get_running_guide>Here's a thread from the GoG forums that explains what you need to do to get the game up and running properly. Apparently there's some codecs and things that need to be installed to get everything working properly, even on the GoG version. Which is more common than you might think, GoG aren't miracle workers, and especially when it comes to Windows native games, they can't always make things work in a way that doesn't require some extra leg work from the customer.
THANK YOU! Couldn't have said it better. This is the equivalent of me loading up an old Game Boy game that I've never played and bitching about the graphics and sounds. Back in the day, these games were awesome. I'd never had a more cinematic gaming experience in my life up to that point. I think you lump this game into the other FMV shovelware that was coming out at the time, and that's a damn shame.Merlark said:
WC3 and WC4 were great for their time. If you missed out on them, then just move along.
Though clearly in the minority, I *miss* the time when developers could choose to integrate FMV without immediate condemnation from the masses. Of course there were many terrible examples, as with anything, but to this date some of my most immersive, exciting and memorable gaming experiences came from very good actors being able to add elements of subtle storytelling into the narrative. The 7th Guest, GK: The Beast Within, Myst 3 - and of course, Wing Commander 3 & 4 - all excellent examples, in my humble opinion.
This review actually surprised me a lot. The wc 1+2 review made me install wc3 last week and play through it from beginning to end for the first time (I bought my first pc to play wc3 and never was able to until now... long story... 
). I have to say that I had mixed about wc3 after finishing it but mainly because of the last mission and the ending in general which I think felt quite rushed. But I have to disagree with nearly every aspect of the review. The graphics are gorgeous for the time and flesh out the overall experience. For example: Now there are real turrets on the 3d destroyers you can shoot of to make destroying those ships easier. You didn't have that in 1+2. Also you now have planetary missions - a completely new aspect for a space sim and a cool one, too!
The mission design and gameplay is simple, arcade style but that is what you get in all wc titles. Regarding the FMV: yeah, the story has a B-movie quality and the dialogue is not the best compared to good movies. But I really enjoyed it a lot nevertheless - it had a great charme on me, gave me chuckles and provoked a reaction. It simply made fun. Actually the situation where you have to choose between Flint and Rachel is - as blant as it is - maybe the best situation in the game and one of the best FMV situations I know. I chose Flint, regretted it, loaded my savegame and then chose Rachel - I really had a bad consciousness about my decisions! Not many games achieve that when telling you to decide for A or B. I think wc3 is not the best game of its era, but a very solid and nice entry to the series and genre. Part 4 in my opinion is one of the best space shooters ever made (remember the final court scene where you have to outsmart Tolwyn using all the information you collected during the game - maybe the best FMV sequence of all time!).
So if you haven't played them yet and are into space sims I highly recommend both of them! They're not only part of gaming history but also make a lot of fun and (especially wc 4) challenge you to think about what is going on in the game from a moral standpoint and do important deicsions based on that.
). I have to say that I had mixed about wc3 after finishing it but mainly because of the last mission and the ending in general which I think felt quite rushed. But I have to disagree with nearly every aspect of the review. The graphics are gorgeous for the time and flesh out the overall experience. For example: Now there are real turrets on the 3d destroyers you can shoot of to make destroying those ships easier. You didn't have that in 1+2. Also you now have planetary missions - a completely new aspect for a space sim and a cool one, too!The mission design and gameplay is simple, arcade style but that is what you get in all wc titles. Regarding the FMV: yeah, the story has a B-movie quality and the dialogue is not the best compared to good movies. But I really enjoyed it a lot nevertheless - it had a great charme on me, gave me chuckles and provoked a reaction. It simply made fun. Actually the situation where you have to choose between Flint and Rachel is - as blant as it is - maybe the best situation in the game and one of the best FMV situations I know. I chose Flint, regretted it, loaded my savegame and then chose Rachel - I really had a bad consciousness about my decisions! Not many games achieve that when telling you to decide for A or B. I think wc3 is not the best game of its era, but a very solid and nice entry to the series and genre. Part 4 in my opinion is one of the best space shooters ever made (remember the final court scene where you have to outsmart Tolwyn using all the information you collected during the game - maybe the best FMV sequence of all time!).
So if you haven't played them yet and are into space sims I highly recommend both of them! They're not only part of gaming history but also make a lot of fun and (especially wc 4) challenge you to think about what is going on in the game from a moral standpoint and do important deicsions based on that.
I got about half way through the 3rd paragraph before I stopped reading. As it was clear you don't know what you're taking about. Maybe it's a hold over from scoffing at Mark Hamil, I don't know. But this game's writing is way above par for the games industry, even now. The production values were AAA, for the time, and the game play was awesome.
Ok. First, a question. Why didn't StewShearer review the WC3-4 bundle? He's the one who's been doing the other Wing Commander reviews. It would have been nice to have the same person cover the full series, for consistency reasons.
You then fully admit that you threw such a big hissy fit about this change that you ignored these two games for nearly two decades. How are we supposed to believe that you're coming into this with a fair and unbiased viewpoint?
I'm not gonna deconstruct the rest of the review, since it's mostly about you harping on about the FMV sequences which, of course, are gonna look ugly, from today's perspective but here's my point about the WC4, seen from the eyes of the kid that played it, roughly 15 years ago.
This was the first game I got to play, that offered you the choice of making split change decision. Sure, it was not the first game to ever do so and you can make the joke about how trivial most of them was, like choosing which chick you wanted to share your bunk bed with, but that's ignoring the deeper more plot related choices you could make.
I'd love to tell you guys what I thought was most unique about the game, but that ruins the ending so here's the second spoiler tag.
Have you ever seen a standard FMV game? They're awful! 90% of the stuff was essentially unplayable garbage. Calling this game a "classic example" of a FMV is a downright lie.Andy Chalk said:
When the game series moves from having animated cut scenes to live action cut scenes, you're on the opinion that Maverick, the fictional character that the original storyline revolves around, has been replaced by an actor, tasked with playing said character? People normally use this term when complaining about an actor being replaced with another actor to portray said character; I've never before seen this argument used in the way you're doing now.Andy Chalk said:
You then fully admit that you threw such a big hissy fit about this change that you ignored these two games for nearly two decades. How are we supposed to believe that you're coming into this with a fair and unbiased viewpoint?
I'm not gonna deconstruct the rest of the review, since it's mostly about you harping on about the FMV sequences which, of course, are gonna look ugly, from today's perspective but here's my point about the WC4, seen from the eyes of the kid that played it, roughly 15 years ago.
This was the first game I got to play, that offered you the choice of making split change decision. Sure, it was not the first game to ever do so and you can make the joke about how trivial most of them was, like choosing which chick you wanted to share your bunk bed with, but that's ignoring the deeper more plot related choices you could make.
You're allowed to temporarily side with the bad guy, mostly on the grounds that you still don't have the full picture and still think they're the good guys. Frankly, I would have loved it if they had taken it all the way and allowed you to permanently side with the baddies, but eventually there comes a point where you're forced to make the switch, in order to progress the story.
I'd love to tell you guys what I thought was most unique about the game, but that ruins the ending so here's the second spoiler tag.
What I will always remember this game for is how unconventional the ending was, seeing how the big boss battle was you performing a verbal debate with the Admiral, in front of a congress that was waiting to decide whether or not they should go to war. That's it, no gun battles or exploding big dreadnaughts. That's all behind you now. If you fail to convince the congress, you're arrested as the traitor that you are and executed. If you win, you avoid a war that will give militant despots the chance to take over the Confederation.
See, it's things like that, that made the game a unique and fun experience for me. This is the stuff that appealed to me, which is why I rank the courtroom scene as the highlights of Neverwinter Nights 2. This is the reason why I think you lost out on a good game, Andy.
See, it's things like that, that made the game a unique and fun experience for me. This is the stuff that appealed to me, which is why I rank the courtroom scene as the highlights of Neverwinter Nights 2. This is the reason why I think you lost out on a good game, Andy.
I'm in the same boat, Wing Commander 4 was my first WC game and I still consider it one of the best. It was the story and FMV's that I loved, so I'll have to disagree with Andy 100%.Rot Krieg said:
I don't agree, 4 atleast looked great for the time, and when I found out about 1 and 2 I was quite turned off by the 2d sprites, it wasn't until later that I got them on GoG to give the games a try, haven't had a chance to play them yet.Andy Chalk said:
I will note that I have the PS version of WC3 & 4, and got the PC verson but haven't played that yet, so some of your issues may be PC related I'm not sure.
I am interested in seeing what you have to say about Prophecy though, it took away alot of what I liked about 4 (choosing your path etc), sounds like you may like it more than I will.