Google Driverless Cars Get Into More Accidents Following Road Rules

Sep 14, 2009
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Arnoxthe1 said:
last time one of these articles popped up, lil devils was the one leading the charge on vehemently being against google cars, so I just wouldn't worry about trying to discuss anything, they won't remotely acknowledge backed up data or any other point of view.

OT: The title seems worded differently than it should be, but whatev's, not gonna care about that, I do agree that driverless cars have to be adaptable, especially to "going with the flow", but once they become mainstream it'll hopefully make this kind of arrangement disappear as all auto-travel becomes autonomous and traffic systems become updated to work together with driverless cars.
 

Steve the Pocket

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Mar 30, 2009
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The issue with designing the cars to be capable of deliberately breaking the law, even in emergency situations, is that they could jeopardize their ability to legally sell them. Just look at the uphill battle the tech industry is already facing over just allowing people to use encryption, at all, ever. Governments see technology like this as a means of control over the citizenry, and treat anything else as a threat. Even self defense is only an excuse when we fight to keep it that way.
 

Qizx

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Feb 21, 2011
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Lil devils x said:
Driving too slow is breaking the law,
As fast as I know driving too slow is ONLY illegal on highways/freeways. In residential or any other area you are allowed to go under the limit. I don't like it when people do, but it is legal.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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May 17, 2011
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Qizx said:
Lil devils x said:
Driving too slow is breaking the law,
As fast as I know driving too slow is ONLY illegal on highways/freeways. In residential or any other area you are allowed to go under the limit. I don't like it when people do, but it is legal.
That depends on where you live, this varies by state so you have to check with the laws in that state. Depending on what state you are driving in, there are three different types of laws, Basic, Absolute and presumed so it can be up to the officers discretion to determine whether or not you are considered a "road hazard" if you live in a state with presumed laws. You can be ticketed in Texas, for example, for driving too slow on any public road, residential or otherwise due to the " impeding traffic law". ?A person shall not drive a motor vehicle at such a slow speed so as to impede or block the normal and reasonable forward movement of traffic.? Texas Transportation Code ?Section 545.363. Different states vary in the leeway they give officers to determine what is and is not ticket worthy.
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
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so what i am reading is that other drivers are not driving safely and do not keep safe distance from the google cars and therefore cause accidents that google somehow gets blamed for.


John Keefer said:
"It's a constant debate inside our group," Raj Rajkumar, co-director of the General Motors-Carnegie Mellon Autonomous Driving Collaborative Research Lab in Pittsburgh, told MSN [http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/technologyinvesting/humans-are-slamming-into-driverless-cars-exposing-key-flaw/ar-BBnH1CJ]. "And we have basically decided to stick to the speed limit. But when you go out and drive the speed limit on the highway, pretty much everybody on the road is just zipping past you. And I would be one of those people."
Then i hope you get your license revoked Mr Rajkumar, because you are advocating for endangering other people and admitting to be doing so already.



Lil devils x said:
Driving too slow is breaking the law, and is a ticketable offense so wouldn't they are doing that already? Driving too slow is worse than driving too fast..

Especially dangerous if they are driving a vehicle that is unable to slow down that quickly such as a semi or a bus. Failing to keep up with the flow of traffic is a danger to everyone on the road with them. I honestly do not think they should be driving autonomous cars on the road at all, there are too many things that could go wrong that you would need a human to react to.
google cars are not driving too slow. its other people that are breaking the speed limit.

Actually Semis/bus have a whole different break system that is in fact multiple times more powerful than regular cars and break tests show that they stop quicker than regular cars. So if a Semi is not stopping as fast as a car its either the driver not doing his job or the breaks being incorrectly set up (happens on both cars and trucks). Either way a driver aware of his suroundings would leave enough space for breaking in vast majority of situations.

Actual traffic studies show that slowing down the flow of traffic often ends up in quicker travel times in cities due to less agressive driving. if the majority is breaking the speed limit and google car isnt, then thats on those breaking the limit. and yes, i know how those streets where everyone drives 10 above the limit work, i live next to one of them.



Lil devils x said:
They do not stop for police officers, or stop to render aid, which is illegal. They are unable to drive outside of well mapped routes, if a stop sign appears ovber night on their already mapped route, they will not stop for it. They are unable to make decisions outside of what they are programmed to do if the situation calls for it, they are unable to drive in different weather situations.. There is MUCH work to be done before this can even be considered, even for in city short distance driving due to the issues that must be resolved for them not to be a safety hazard.
thats what you, the human, is there for. These cars are not a safety hazard however, its the human drivers and their errors due to low human reaction times and lack of concentration that causes the safety hazard.

Lil devils x said:
They have not resolved the issues of GPS hacking, or what happens if the car gets a virus.. When humans get a virus they are just sick. Whena computer gets a virus, it's programming is altered. There is no such thing as " secure" . "Security" is just guys trying to change code faster than someone else breaks the code... It isn't something that is even really " attainable" or sustainable.
i guess by GPS hacking you mean feeding the car false GPS data? because to do that youd need to hack actual satellites, multiple of them. people with resources to do that have better things to do than crash your cars.
Have you ever had a computer virus? id guess yes, very likely. has it made your computer suddenly turn into a death machine?

Lil devils x said:
That is not how things work while driving, you do not " announce" you react as quickly as possible to survive and prevent casualties. Not being able to do that, or creating situations were that is not possible means it is not safe to be on the road. It is not " just as easy".. things happen very quickly. When you are already driving, you will react and respond faster than if you are not.
the cars computer can react far quicker and more precisely than human ever could. if the computer is unable to react properly its already too late for the human to react. the ONLY way manual control would be beneficial is in situation you can predict ahead of time to require manual override, like say the mentioned police waving to a stop. for the situations where "Things happen very quickly" human is already too late.

Lil devils x said:
In any emergency situation the car is not equipped to make a " judgement call" for. For example: You are driving home and a tornado forms on top of you and is suddenly throwing trees, fences, metal poles and 2x4's at your vehicle.. Which objects do you avoid and which do you let hit your car? Where do you let them hit? and What path off road do you take to live?
( What actually happened to me while driving home from work one day).
Neither are humans. In fact human mistakes result in far more injuries than the currently limited scope of judgement. so if those machines are not equipped, then humans arent either. your example is so rare that its as effective an argument against these cars as a chance of having a brick fall on top of your head is an argument against ever going outside. Yes, it could happen, the chances are so low that its well worth the risk. And even in such sudden scenarios simply stopping actually solves the problem 99% of times.
( Also most of the world does not actually get tornadoes. at all).

Or how about there is a herd of cattle in the road, how do you safely maneuver around them to prevent from injuring them, scaring them or injuring yourself? ( that happened last week)
I'd guess the car stops and waits till the herd is out of the way at a safe distance. it is illegal to allow animals reach the road outside of intentional herding them to specific direction by a group of people.
No idea how it is where you live but where i live farmers have a cool invention called fences that means this pretty much never happens.

Or how about.. There is an accident ahead and fire and ambulance needs through and the bridge ahead is blocked and no exit ramp nearby to move to the service road. An officer is off to the side directing cars to drive off road to get to the service road through uneven ground slowly to allow emergency vehicles to make it through traffic. How does the vehicle respond? ( that happens repeatedly at a bridge near here when there is an accident on it)
and thats the situation where you have ample time to take manual control. Do note that this accident would not have happened had the other cars were also automated. as well as that if it happens this often its clearly badly designed bridge.






Qizx said:
Lil devils x said:
Driving too slow is breaking the law,
As fast as I know driving too slow is ONLY illegal on highways/freeways. In residential or any other area you are allowed to go under the limit. I don't like it when people do, but it is legal.
It is also illegal if it "needlessly endanger other traffic participants". though what that means is up for the court to decide. It also states, at least where i live, that if you are driving 30 km/h bellow the speed limit (note that its the speed limit, not the speed of other cars) and if other cars cannot easily overtake you, you have to stop and let them through.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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May 17, 2011
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Strazdas said:
so what i am reading is that other drivers are not driving safely and do not keep safe distance from the google cars and therefore cause accidents that google somehow gets blamed for.


John Keefer said:
"It's a constant debate inside our group," Raj Rajkumar, co-director of the General Motors-Carnegie Mellon Autonomous Driving Collaborative Research Lab in Pittsburgh, told MSN [http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/technologyinvesting/humans-are-slamming-into-driverless-cars-exposing-key-flaw/ar-BBnH1CJ]. "And we have basically decided to stick to the speed limit. But when you go out and drive the speed limit on the highway, pretty much everybody on the road is just zipping past you. And I would be one of those people."
Then i hope you get your license revoked Mr Rajkumar, because you are advocating for endangering other people and admitting to be doing so already.



Lil devils x said:
Driving too slow is breaking the law, and is a ticketable offense so wouldn't they are doing that already? Driving too slow is worse than driving too fast..

Especially dangerous if they are driving a vehicle that is unable to slow down that quickly such as a semi or a bus. Failing to keep up with the flow of traffic is a danger to everyone on the road with them. I honestly do not think they should be driving autonomous cars on the road at all, there are too many things that could go wrong that you would need a human to react to.
google cars are not driving too slow. its other people that are breaking the speed limit.

Actually Semis/bus have a whole different break system that is in fact multiple times more powerful than regular cars and break tests show that they stop quicker than regular cars. So if a Semi is not stopping as fast as a car its either the driver not doing his job or the breaks being incorrectly set up (happens on both cars and trucks). Either way a driver aware of his suroundings would leave enough space for breaking in vast majority of situations.

Actual traffic studies show that slowing down the flow of traffic often ends up in quicker travel times in cities due to less agressive driving. if the majority is breaking the speed limit and google car isnt, then thats on those breaking the limit. and yes, i know how those streets where everyone drives 10 above the limit work, i live next to one of them.



Lil devils x said:
They do not stop for police officers, or stop to render aid, which is illegal. They are unable to drive outside of well mapped routes, if a stop sign appears ovber night on their already mapped route, they will not stop for it. They are unable to make decisions outside of what they are programmed to do if the situation calls for it, they are unable to drive in different weather situations.. There is MUCH work to be done before this can even be considered, even for in city short distance driving due to the issues that must be resolved for them not to be a safety hazard.
thats what you, the human, is there for. These cars are not a safety hazard however, its the human drivers and their errors due to low human reaction times and lack of concentration that causes the safety hazard.

Lil devils x said:
They have not resolved the issues of GPS hacking, or what happens if the car gets a virus.. When humans get a virus they are just sick. Whena computer gets a virus, it's programming is altered. There is no such thing as " secure" . "Security" is just guys trying to change code faster than someone else breaks the code... It isn't something that is even really " attainable" or sustainable.
i guess by GPS hacking you mean feeding the car false GPS data? because to do that youd need to hack actual satellites, multiple of them. people with resources to do that have better things to do than crash your cars.
Have you ever had a computer virus? id guess yes, very likely. has it made your computer suddenly turn into a death machine?

Lil devils x said:
That is not how things work while driving, you do not " announce" you react as quickly as possible to survive and prevent casualties. Not being able to do that, or creating situations were that is not possible means it is not safe to be on the road. It is not " just as easy".. things happen very quickly. When you are already driving, you will react and respond faster than if you are not.
the cars computer can react far quicker and more precisely than human ever could. if the computer is unable to react properly its already too late for the human to react. the ONLY way manual control would be beneficial is in situation you can predict ahead of time to require manual override, like say the mentioned police waving to a stop. for the situations where "Things happen very quickly" human is already too late.

Lil devils x said:
In any emergency situation the car is not equipped to make a " judgement call" for. For example: You are driving home and a tornado forms on top of you and is suddenly throwing trees, fences, metal poles and 2x4's at your vehicle.. Which objects do you avoid and which do you let hit your car? Where do you let them hit? and What path off road do you take to live?
( What actually happened to me while driving home from work one day).
Neither are humans. In fact human mistakes result in far more injuries than the currently limited scope of judgement. so if those machines are not equipped, then humans arent either. your example is so rare that its as effective an argument against these cars as a chance of having a brick fall on top of your head is an argument against ever going outside. Yes, it could happen, the chances are so low that its well worth the risk. And even in such sudden scenarios simply stopping actually solves the problem 99% of times.
( Also most of the world does not actually get tornadoes. at all).

Or how about there is a herd of cattle in the road, how do you safely maneuver around them to prevent from injuring them, scaring them or injuring yourself? ( that happened last week)
I'd guess the car stops and waits till the herd is out of the way at a safe distance. it is illegal to allow animals reach the road outside of intentional herding them to specific direction by a group of people.
No idea how it is where you live but where i live farmers have a cool invention called fences that means this pretty much never happens.

Or how about.. There is an accident ahead and fire and ambulance needs through and the bridge ahead is blocked and no exit ramp nearby to move to the service road. An officer is off to the side directing cars to drive off road to get to the service road through uneven ground slowly to allow emergency vehicles to make it through traffic. How does the vehicle respond? ( that happens repeatedly at a bridge near here when there is an accident on it)
and thats the situation where you have ample time to take manual control. Do note that this accident would not have happened had the other cars were also automated. as well as that if it happens this often its clearly badly designed bridge.






Qizx said:
Lil devils x said:
Driving too slow is breaking the law,
As fast as I know driving too slow is ONLY illegal on highways/freeways. In residential or any other area you are allowed to go under the limit. I don't like it when people do, but it is legal.
It is also illegal if it "needlessly endanger other traffic participants". though what that means is up for the court to decide. It also states, at least where i live, that if you are driving 30 km/h bellow the speed limit (note that its the speed limit, not the speed of other cars) and if other cars cannot easily overtake you, you have to stop and let them through.
GPS hacking:
https://www.rt.com/usa/iran-drone-hack-stealth-943/
http://www.ibtimes.com/gps-terrorism-hackers-could-exploit-location-technology-hijack-ships-airplanes-1362937
http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/07/24/hackers-reveal-nasty-new-car-attacks-with-me-behind-the-wheel-video/
http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/07/31/this_security_flaw_allows_hackers_to_intercept_spoof_or_jam_gps_tracking.html
https://www.hackread.com/hacking-smartphones-gps-in-car-navigation-system/

I ALSO strongly disagree that computers are yet capable of thinking " better than humans" when it comes to extreme situations because they are only equipped to handle situations for which they are programmed for, if they are not programmed to deal with the current situation they are dealing with, they do not have a way to properly respond, unlike humans who ARE capable of making a judgement call as to let the tree hit the hood of the car to avoid the pole being hurled at them in a weather event. Computers do what they are programmed to do and only if they are functioning properly. Humans change and adapt to survive as they have for millions of years even often when they are not " functioning properly". Speaking of tornadoes... this was taken over the weekend here..

In addition:
Yes, the cars have had issues of going too slow:

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-34808105
They have even been making jokes about this..
http://www.informationweek.com/it-life/google-self-driving-cars-10-reasons-they-go-so-slowly/a/d-id/1323151

Here you can get a ticket for going 10mph under the speed limit.

ALSO, if the cattle is in the road, you do not sit there all day and wait for someone to move them.. they could be there all day. If an officer has not arrived to assist you in directing you to drive slowly around them, it is safe to slowly navigate off road around the cattle s well without causing harm to you or your vehicle. This happens so frequently around here that it would be a daily issue if self driving cars were allowed on the road here. We often have officers and road workers manually directing traffic with hands here from everything from pot hole repairs, to furniture and ladders falling off trucks to escaped cattle.
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
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Lil devils x said:
GPS hacking:
https://www.rt.com/usa/iran-drone-hack-stealth-943/
http://www.ibtimes.com/gps-terrorism-hackers-could-exploit-location-technology-hijack-ships-airplanes-1362937
http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/07/24/hackers-reveal-nasty-new-car-attacks-with-me-behind-the-wheel-video/
http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/07/31/this_security_flaw_allows_hackers_to_intercept_spoof_or_jam_gps_tracking.html
https://www.hackread.com/hacking-smartphones-gps-in-car-navigation-system/

I ALSO strongly disagree that computers are yet capable of thinking " better than humans" when it comes to extreme situations because they are only equipped to handle situations for which they are programmed for, if they are not programmed to deal with the current situation they are dealing with, they do not have a way to properly respond, unlike humans who ARE capable of making a judgement call as to let the tree hit the hood of the car to avoid the pole being hurled at them in a weather event. Computers do what they are programmed to do and only if they are functioning properly. Humans change and adapt to survive as they have for millions of years even often when they are not " functioning properly". Speaking of tornadoes... this was taken over the weekend here..

In addition:
Yes, the cars have had issues of going too slow:

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-34808105
They have even been making jokes about this..
http://www.informationweek.com/it-life/google-self-driving-cars-10-reasons-they-go-so-slowly/a/d-id/1323151

Here you can get a ticket for going 10mph under the speed limit.

ALSO, if the cattle is in the road, you do not sit there all day and wait for someone to move them.. they could be there all day. If an officer has not arrived to assist you in directing you to drive slowly around them, it is safe to slowly navigate off road around the cattle s well without causing harm to you or your vehicle. This happens so frequently around here that it would be a daily issue if self driving cars were allowed on the road here. We often have officers and road workers manually directing traffic with hands here from everything from pot hole repairs, to furniture and ladders falling off trucks to escaped cattle.
1st link: Russian today, really? anyway, i remmeber that incident. the drones communicated their orders via unencrypted wireless signal, Iranians mimicked this signal and told the drone different instructions. no GPS signal involved.

2nd: "Humphreys? team built the world?s most powerful GPS spoofer, which dupes GPS antennas with fake signals. "

and yet nothing happened. but yeah, this is actual spoofing that may affect these cars if GPS was the only thing they relied on.

3rd: nothing even relevant. he connected directly, with wires, to the cars computer and for some illegal reason the cars breaks were fully controlled by the computer (which as i mentioned is illegal to do. the break pedal is required by car regulation to be able to directly connect to the break blocks, so even if you lost all power, you could still break (though with power-breaks you will have to jam the breaks around 5-7 times harder to have any effect. before power breaks were invented some people were barred from driving simply because they didnt have enough strenght to power the break pedals)

4th: no GPS hacking either, but this is at least related to your concerns. but like i said, people that have knowledge to do this arent interested in your car, they are interested in that 4 million gold truck.

5th: ignoring the clickbait opening that looks like some tabloit like "The Sun" more than anything worth reading. While the article provides no details assuming they arent just blowing things out of proportions this may actually be a good argument in your favor.


No, driving on the road is not survival of the species challenge and the human adaptability there is required far less than ability to react quickly and safely, something we know for a fact driver humans are incapable of. so by the sole fact that google cars can sometimes do this they are already better than humans that NEVER can.

If you got weekly tornados that throw trees at your car the only thing i can come up with for why people live there is a suicidal death wish.



Notice how the first link explicitly says that google cars have never had a ticket issued to them for over 1.2 million miles and shows exactly how humans failed to drive properly?

the second link is just some guy making bad jokes about google. at least it has a nice picture of a dog in it :)


The only way cattle is in the road is if people are moving it somewhere. any other case cattle is in the road the cattle owner probably wont be able to afford to own it very quickly. I dont know how much you know about cattle, but cattle wont just stand there whole day looking at your car. they get bored way too quickly and will go find some grass to chew. If cattle on the road is a "daily issue" where you live i once agian have to ask what the fuck is wrong with that place? and how did that cattle wasnt flown away by those weekly tornadoes yet?

Also this could once again be easily solved by the car stopping and letting you take manual control to drive around the cattle.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

More Lego Goats Please!
May 17, 2011
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Strazdas said:
Lil devils x said:
GPS hacking:
https://www.rt.com/usa/iran-drone-hack-stealth-943/
http://www.ibtimes.com/gps-terrorism-hackers-could-exploit-location-technology-hijack-ships-airplanes-1362937
http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/07/24/hackers-reveal-nasty-new-car-attacks-with-me-behind-the-wheel-video/
http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/07/31/this_security_flaw_allows_hackers_to_intercept_spoof_or_jam_gps_tracking.html
https://www.hackread.com/hacking-smartphones-gps-in-car-navigation-system/

I ALSO strongly disagree that computers are yet capable of thinking " better than humans" when it comes to extreme situations because they are only equipped to handle situations for which they are programmed for, if they are not programmed to deal with the current situation they are dealing with, they do not have a way to properly respond, unlike humans who ARE capable of making a judgement call as to let the tree hit the hood of the car to avoid the pole being hurled at them in a weather event. Computers do what they are programmed to do and only if they are functioning properly. Humans change and adapt to survive as they have for millions of years even often when they are not " functioning properly". Speaking of tornadoes... this was taken over the weekend here..

In addition:
Yes, the cars have had issues of going too slow:

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-34808105
They have even been making jokes about this..
http://www.informationweek.com/it-life/google-self-driving-cars-10-reasons-they-go-so-slowly/a/d-id/1323151

Here you can get a ticket for going 10mph under the speed limit.

ALSO, if the cattle is in the road, you do not sit there all day and wait for someone to move them.. they could be there all day. If an officer has not arrived to assist you in directing you to drive slowly around them, it is safe to slowly navigate off road around the cattle s well without causing harm to you or your vehicle. This happens so frequently around here that it would be a daily issue if self driving cars were allowed on the road here. We often have officers and road workers manually directing traffic with hands here from everything from pot hole repairs, to furniture and ladders falling off trucks to escaped cattle.
1st link: Russian today, really? anyway, i remmeber that incident. the drones communicated their orders via unencrypted wireless signal, Iranians mimicked this signal and told the drone different instructions. no GPS signal involved.

2nd: "Humphreys? team built the world?s most powerful GPS spoofer, which dupes GPS antennas with fake signals. "

and yet nothing happened. but yeah, this is actual spoofing that may affect these cars if GPS was the only thing they relied on.

3rd: nothing even relevant. he connected directly, with wires, to the cars computer and for some illegal reason the cars breaks were fully controlled by the computer (which as i mentioned is illegal to do. the break pedal is required by car regulation to be able to directly connect to the break blocks, so even if you lost all power, you could still break (though with power-breaks you will have to jam the breaks around 5-7 times harder to have any effect. before power breaks were invented some people were barred from driving simply because they didnt have enough strenght to power the break pedals)

4th: no GPS hacking either, but this is at least related to your concerns. but like i said, people that have knowledge to do this arent interested in your car, they are interested in that 4 million gold truck.

5th: ignoring the clickbait opening that looks like some tabloit like "The Sun" more than anything worth reading. While the article provides no details assuming they arent just blowing things out of proportions this may actually be a good argument in your favor.


No, driving on the road is not survival of the species challenge and the human adaptability there is required far less than ability to react quickly and safely, something we know for a fact driver humans are incapable of. so by the sole fact that google cars can sometimes do this they are already better than humans that NEVER can.

If you got weekly tornados that throw trees at your car the only thing i can come up with for why people live there is a suicidal death wish.



Notice how the first link explicitly says that google cars have never had a ticket issued to them for over 1.2 million miles and shows exactly how humans failed to drive properly?

the second link is just some guy making bad jokes about google. at least it has a nice picture of a dog in it :)


The only way cattle is in the road is if people are moving it somewhere. any other case cattle is in the road the cattle owner probably wont be able to afford to own it very quickly. I dont know how much you know about cattle, but cattle wont just stand there whole day looking at your car. they get bored way too quickly and will go find some grass to chew. If cattle on the road is a "daily issue" where you live i once agian have to ask what the fuck is wrong with that place? and how did that cattle wasnt flown away by those weekly tornadoes yet?

Also this could once again be easily solved by the car stopping and letting you take manual control to drive around the cattle.
You realize I just grabbed the first few links when googling " GPS Hacking"? There is much more if you actually read up on it. Hobbyist have even been doing this now. Second, come drive in Texas and tell me about how driving is not a matter of adapting to survive. We have 80 mph speed limits where the actual flow of traffic exceeds 100mph and ,yes, people are better than computers currently under the same situations as they have been attempting to test the vehicles here as well. In well mapped, slow driving routes they sustain but outside of that they are not viable yet. In addition to GPS hacking what happens when the Auto dealership is hacked? For example:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/business/2015/07/22/hacks-on-the-highway/

What happens if the people who are supposed to maintain the vehicles and update them gets hacked? The truth is there is no such thing as " secure" when it comes to a programmable device, since you can just change it's programming.The idea that " oh people won't hack regular cars.. they will hack a gold truck" is completely false. They hack what they know. That is why schools and education sites are actually worse than porn sites for being hacked. They hack their friends, their peers, they hack that " evil hag teacher that made their day a living hell".

http://arcticwolf.com/news/security-it-trendsnews/schools-increasingly-targeted-by-hackers/
http://www.edweek.org/dd/articles/2010/06/16/03hackers.h03.html
https://www.contentkeeper.com/sites/default/files/whitepapers/WHITEPAPER%20-%20Malware%20Threats%20and%20Education%20(04-13-US).pdf
http://onairpk.com/uos-cs-student-hacks-university-website-to-record-protest-against-management/

My cousin actually traps viruses and experiments on them to see what kind of damage they can inflict. Even with the security measures they have put in place to prevent computers from catching fire from viruses as they used to, there are still viruses that have been able to do some serious damage melting the motherboard and setting the printers on fire. There is no such thing as " secure" as no firewall or antivirus stops even 90%. Even the best software only stops like 75% and that is acceptable when it is not a car.


How many computer issues have you had with the car you drive right now or one you have previously owned? I have had computer issues with every single car I have owned. Not just one of them, but every single one of them. The computers error, they break down, they even sometimes go berserk turning themselves on and off randomly and doing strange things like lock and unlock the doors and set off panic mode for no apparent reason and lock your windows and you take your cars into a specialist to have it repaired and they tell you they have no idea why it is doing that either... That is the reality of technology. I build computers as a hobby, I can solder boards and replace capacitor and chips.. but I could not tell you why they do the things they do sometimes either because when you look at everything, it shows it should not be doing that, if it were that easy to determine what it is going to do when it errors, gets hacked or becomes damaged, they would have solved the problems before they sold the devices. The difference between when your computer malfunctions in your home and when it does it in your car is people can die.

We do have autonomous cars already on the road in tornado alley.
http://gizmodo.com/google-is-now-testing-its-autonomous-cars-in-austin-te-1716174014

On car hacking:
http://fortune.com/2015/09/15/intel-car-hacking/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11964140/Three-quarters-of-cars-stolen-in-France-electronically-hacked.html
http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/self-driving/researcher-hacks-selfdriving-car-sensors
http://www.popsci.com/hackers-can-trick-lidar-used-in-autonomous-cars-with-laser-pointer
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/will-car-hacking-become-the-new-carjacking-2014-06-03
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2015/May/Pages/ResearchersHackIntoDriverlessCarSystemTakeControlofVehicle.aspx
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/sep/07/hackers-trick-self-driving-cars-lidar-sensor
http://destinhaus.com/driverless-cars-the-car-hack-security-challenge/
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/01/25/killer-cars-auto-computer-systems-open-to-malfunction-hackers
http://fortune.com/2014/10/07/car-hacking-how-big-is-the-data-threat-to-self-driving-cars/
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2010645/self-driving-cars-could-bring-a-new-world-of-hacking.html
http://us.norton.com/yoursecurityresource/detail.jsp?aid=car_computer
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-car-hacking-20150914-story.html
http://www.darkreading.com/attacks-breaches/state-trooper-vehicles-hacked-/d/d-id/1322415
http://thehackernews.com/2015/10/hacking-car-airbag.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/29/technology/uber-hires-two-engineers-who-showed-cars-could-be-hacked.html?_r=0
to name a few...

You DO realize that the google cars are driving the same well mapped, well prepared route over and over to get their "millions" of miles?

http://gizmodo.com/how-to-teach-an-autonomous-car-to-drive-1694725874
http://fusion.net/story/213265/google-robocars-accidents/
http://theoatmeal.com/blog/google_self_driving_car

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2492807,00.asp

Of course it isn't just tornadoes or cows people have to worry about being in the road..
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Elephant-seal-crossing-the-road-causes-North-Bay-6724315.php
There is all kinds of crap in the road on a daily basis in every city, state, country in the world we have to be concerned about..

The primary reason cattle are in the road here is they escaped, not because someone is moving them. Cows, lamas, alpacas, horses, bulls, pigs.. all escape, all the time here. Fences break, gates break when no one is around and they get out and run amuck, then you get a show as the sheriff and other "cowboys" get on their horses and lasso and round them up...

What do you mean what is wrong with the place if there are animals in the road? Doesn't that happen everywhere? I am not aware of a place where animals do not go into the road. It isn;t like we are the only animals living on this planet, we have been living alongside them for quite some time now. If it isn't cows, it is horses, deer, moose, elephants.. hell in California it is seals.. LOL


You are assuming the car has a steering wheel or a driver.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/28/technology/googles-next-phase-in-driverless-cars-no-brakes-or-steering-wheel.html
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
8,407
0
0
Lil devils x said:
You realize I just grabbed the first few links when googling " GPS Hacking"? There is much more if you actually read up on it. Hobbyist have even been doing this now. Second, come drive in Texas and tell me about how driving is not a matter of adapting to survive. We have 80 mph speed limits where the actual flow of traffic exceeds 100mph and ,yes, people are better than computers currently under the same situations as they have been attempting to test the vehicles here as well. In well mapped, slow driving routes they sustain but outside of that they are not viable yet. In addition to GPS hacking what happens when the Auto dealership is hacked? For example:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/business/2015/07/22/hacks-on-the-highway/

What happens if the people who are supposed to maintain the vehicles and update them gets hacked? The truth is there is no such thing as " secure" when it comes to a programmable device, since you can just change it's programming.The idea that " oh people won't hack regular cars.. they will hack a gold truck" is completely false. They hack what they know. That is why schools and education sites are actually worse than porn sites for being hacked. They hack their friends, their peers, they hack that " evil hag teacher that made their day a living hell".

http://arcticwolf.com/news/security-it-trendsnews/schools-increasingly-targeted-by-hackers/
http://www.edweek.org/dd/articles/2010/06/16/03hackers.h03.html
https://www.contentkeeper.com/sites/default/files/whitepapers/WHITEPAPER%20-%20Malware%20Threats%20and%20Education%20(04-13-US).pdf
http://onairpk.com/uos-cs-student-hacks-university-website-to-record-protest-against-management/

My cousin actually traps viruses and experiments on them to see what kind of damage they can inflict. Even with the security measures they have put in place to prevent computers from catching fire from viruses as they used to, there are still viruses that have been able to do some serious damage melting the motherboard and setting the printers on fire. There is no such thing as " secure" as no firewall or antivirus stops even 90%. Even the best software only stops like 75% and that is acceptable when it is not a car.


How many computer issues have you had with the car you drive right now or one you have previously owned? I have had computer issues with every single car I have owned. Not just one of them, but every single one of them. The computers error, they break down, they even sometimes go berserk turning themselves on and off randomly and doing strange things like lock and unlock the doors and set off panic mode for no apparent reason and lock your windows and you take your cars into a specialist to have it repaired and they tell you they have no idea why it is doing that either... That is the reality of technology. I build computers as a hobby, I can solder boards and replace capacitor and chips.. but I could not tell you why they do the things they do sometimes either because when you look at everything, it shows it should not be doing that, if it were that easy to determine what it is going to do when it errors, gets hacked or becomes damaged, they would have solved the problems before they sold the devices. The difference between when your computer malfunctions in your home and when it does it in your car is people can die.

We do have autonomous cars already on the road in tornado alley.
http://gizmodo.com/google-is-now-testing-its-autonomous-cars-in-austin-te-1716174014

On car hacking:
http://fortune.com/2015/09/15/intel-car-hacking/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11964140/Three-quarters-of-cars-stolen-in-France-electronically-hacked.html
http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/self-driving/researcher-hacks-selfdriving-car-sensors
http://www.popsci.com/hackers-can-trick-lidar-used-in-autonomous-cars-with-laser-pointer
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/will-car-hacking-become-the-new-carjacking-2014-06-03
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2015/May/Pages/ResearchersHackIntoDriverlessCarSystemTakeControlofVehicle.aspx
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/sep/07/hackers-trick-self-driving-cars-lidar-sensor
http://destinhaus.com/driverless-cars-the-car-hack-security-challenge/
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/01/25/killer-cars-auto-computer-systems-open-to-malfunction-hackers
http://fortune.com/2014/10/07/car-hacking-how-big-is-the-data-threat-to-self-driving-cars/
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2010645/self-driving-cars-could-bring-a-new-world-of-hacking.html
http://us.norton.com/yoursecurityresource/detail.jsp?aid=car_computer
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-car-hacking-20150914-story.html
http://www.darkreading.com/attacks-breaches/state-trooper-vehicles-hacked-/d/d-id/1322415
http://thehackernews.com/2015/10/hacking-car-airbag.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/29/technology/uber-hires-two-engineers-who-showed-cars-could-be-hacked.html?_r=0
to name a few...

You DO realize that the google cars are driving the same well mapped, well prepared route over and over to get their "millions" of miles?

http://gizmodo.com/how-to-teach-an-autonomous-car-to-drive-1694725874
http://fusion.net/story/213265/google-robocars-accidents/
http://theoatmeal.com/blog/google_self_driving_car

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2492807,00.asp

Of course it isn't just tornadoes or cows people have to worry about being in the road..
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Elephant-seal-crossing-the-road-causes-North-Bay-6724315.php
There is all kinds of crap in the road on a daily basis in every city, state, country in the world we have to be concerned about..

The primary reason cattle are in the road here is they escaped, not because someone is moving them. Cows, lamas, alpacas, horses, bulls, pigs.. all escape, all the time here. Fences break, gates break when no one is around and they get out and run amuck, then you get a show as the sheriff and other "cowboys" get on their horses and lasso and round them up...

What do you mean what is wrong with the place if there are animals in the road? Doesn't that happen everywhere? I am not aware of a place where animals do not go into the road. It isn;t like we are the only animals living on this planet, we have been living alongside them for quite some time now. If it isn't cows, it is horses, deer, moose, elephants.. hell in California it is seals.. LOL


You are assuming the car has a steering wheel or a driver.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/28/technology/googles-next-phase-in-driverless-cars-no-brakes-or-steering-wheel.html
you have done very poor screening of those links then.

I wonder why no speed cameras were established on those roads then. sounds like you have a big problem and instead of admitting it you are claiming that the fix to that problem is somehow dangerous. no wonder car accidents is the second most common cause of death in US.

dealer hacking link: "The staff suspected malfunctions in a new Internet device, installed behind dashboards of second-hand cars, that allowed the dealership to remind customers of overdue payments by taking remote control of some vehicle functions. "
Oh, we just installed this extremely illegal device in your car but its not our fault your car didnt start because of it. This dealership management should be in jail now.

the rest of the post goes into posturing how scary "the evil internet" is and how they want government to choke it to death. i especially love this one: "?I don?t want to want to wait until there are cars crashing on the news every month,? Charlie Miller says". Well i do, that would mean a 30-fold reduction in car crashes. Only one major crash a month as opposed to one major crash per day!

Well i guess you should stop driving right now, because there is a computer inside every car that can make you crash now. since anything can be hacked, so can your car.

School hacks are common because there is a clash of horrible security (seriously, most schools dont even have IT personnel at all, just a regular teacher that "knows computers" setting everything up) and the crowd that is most likely to have innovative hackers - young people. worth noting that despite all that, this single gold truck is still more damage than all school hacks put together.

My cousin actually traps viruses and experiments on them to see what kind of damage they can inflict. Even with the security measures they have put in place to prevent computers from catching fire from viruses as they used to, there are still viruses that have been able to do some serious damage melting the motherboard and setting the printers on fire. There is no such thing as " secure" as no firewall or antivirus stops even 90%. Even the best software only stops like 75% and that is acceptable when it is not a car.
Either you just made this up or your cousin is actually extremely horrible at what he does. just put the virus in a sandbox and use emulated hardware instead of direct hook. the virus cant do shit. Also "printers on fire" has been a thing in the 90s, now it is literally impossible to do that even if your goal is intentionally to do that. So perhaps what you meant to say is your cousin used to trap viruses 20 years ago.

I had a single issue with a car computer for a single car. the issue consisted of falsely detecting engine error and going into error mode which mean the computer stopped regulating fuel intake. this meant that i was burning a bit more fuel than i should, so i had the computer brain replaced (for effing 130 euros) and now its fine again. Though granted i am only driving for 8 years so far so perhaps your experience is over a longer span of time. that being said, thats 1 car, 1 incident, over 8 years and 3 cars, with effects that are not dangerous. so its already beating your experience by far.

Ah, good, do you have the numbers of those cars meeting tornadoes and then killing its passenger from a falling tree? from what i understand that happens to you every other week there.

looks like you spent more time googling links. but you once again forgot to read them. most of them overlap and talk about same 3 topics, with the ending message of "we are aware of dangers and will pay attention to security". you should also realize that these cars will never get legalized unless they meet the same accident chance standards as regular cars anyway. Also some unrelated stories again, like the one about french car thieves.

And it doesnt matter what kind of animal it is. the procedure is almost always the same. perhaps it would be different if you met an aggressive bear or something. otherwise just stop and maneuver around.

No, animals dont go loose on the roads daily here. we have utilized a great thing called "a fence". Perhaps you Texans should try it too, it works great! Yes, once in a while we do have a deer break through a fence or something like that (deers love trying to jump over fences for some reason). But that is rare. as in you will see it once in 3 years.

and yes, all current driver-less cars DO have wheels and a person inside it. it may be different in the future, but it is like that now.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

More Lego Goats Please!
May 17, 2011
2,728
0
0
Strazdas said:
Lil devils x said:
You realize I just grabbed the first few links when googling " GPS Hacking"? There is much more if you actually read up on it. Hobbyist have even been doing this now. Second, come drive in Texas and tell me about how driving is not a matter of adapting to survive. We have 80 mph speed limits where the actual flow of traffic exceeds 100mph and ,yes, people are better than computers currently under the same situations as they have been attempting to test the vehicles here as well. In well mapped, slow driving routes they sustain but outside of that they are not viable yet. In addition to GPS hacking what happens when the Auto dealership is hacked? For example:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/business/2015/07/22/hacks-on-the-highway/

What happens if the people who are supposed to maintain the vehicles and update them gets hacked? The truth is there is no such thing as " secure" when it comes to a programmable device, since you can just change it's programming.The idea that " oh people won't hack regular cars.. they will hack a gold truck" is completely false. They hack what they know. That is why schools and education sites are actually worse than porn sites for being hacked. They hack their friends, their peers, they hack that " evil hag teacher that made their day a living hell".

http://arcticwolf.com/news/security-it-trendsnews/schools-increasingly-targeted-by-hackers/
http://www.edweek.org/dd/articles/2010/06/16/03hackers.h03.html
https://www.contentkeeper.com/sites/default/files/whitepapers/WHITEPAPER%20-%20Malware%20Threats%20and%20Education%20(04-13-US).pdf
http://onairpk.com/uos-cs-student-hacks-university-website-to-record-protest-against-management/

My cousin actually traps viruses and experiments on them to see what kind of damage they can inflict. Even with the security measures they have put in place to prevent computers from catching fire from viruses as they used to, there are still viruses that have been able to do some serious damage melting the motherboard and setting the printers on fire. There is no such thing as " secure" as no firewall or antivirus stops even 90%. Even the best software only stops like 75% and that is acceptable when it is not a car.


How many computer issues have you had with the car you drive right now or one you have previously owned? I have had computer issues with every single car I have owned. Not just one of them, but every single one of them. The computers error, they break down, they even sometimes go berserk turning themselves on and off randomly and doing strange things like lock and unlock the doors and set off panic mode for no apparent reason and lock your windows and you take your cars into a specialist to have it repaired and they tell you they have no idea why it is doing that either... That is the reality of technology. I build computers as a hobby, I can solder boards and replace capacitor and chips.. but I could not tell you why they do the things they do sometimes either because when you look at everything, it shows it should not be doing that, if it were that easy to determine what it is going to do when it errors, gets hacked or becomes damaged, they would have solved the problems before they sold the devices. The difference between when your computer malfunctions in your home and when it does it in your car is people can die.

We do have autonomous cars already on the road in tornado alley.
http://gizmodo.com/google-is-now-testing-its-autonomous-cars-in-austin-te-1716174014

On car hacking:
http://fortune.com/2015/09/15/intel-car-hacking/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11964140/Three-quarters-of-cars-stolen-in-France-electronically-hacked.html
http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/self-driving/researcher-hacks-selfdriving-car-sensors
http://www.popsci.com/hackers-can-trick-lidar-used-in-autonomous-cars-with-laser-pointer
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/will-car-hacking-become-the-new-carjacking-2014-06-03
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2015/May/Pages/ResearchersHackIntoDriverlessCarSystemTakeControlofVehicle.aspx
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/sep/07/hackers-trick-self-driving-cars-lidar-sensor
http://destinhaus.com/driverless-cars-the-car-hack-security-challenge/
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/01/25/killer-cars-auto-computer-systems-open-to-malfunction-hackers
http://fortune.com/2014/10/07/car-hacking-how-big-is-the-data-threat-to-self-driving-cars/
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2010645/self-driving-cars-could-bring-a-new-world-of-hacking.html
http://us.norton.com/yoursecurityresource/detail.jsp?aid=car_computer
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-car-hacking-20150914-story.html
http://www.darkreading.com/attacks-breaches/state-trooper-vehicles-hacked-/d/d-id/1322415
http://thehackernews.com/2015/10/hacking-car-airbag.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/29/technology/uber-hires-two-engineers-who-showed-cars-could-be-hacked.html?_r=0
to name a few...

You DO realize that the google cars are driving the same well mapped, well prepared route over and over to get their "millions" of miles?

http://gizmodo.com/how-to-teach-an-autonomous-car-to-drive-1694725874
http://fusion.net/story/213265/google-robocars-accidents/
http://theoatmeal.com/blog/google_self_driving_car

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2492807,00.asp

Of course it isn't just tornadoes or cows people have to worry about being in the road..
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Elephant-seal-crossing-the-road-causes-North-Bay-6724315.php
There is all kinds of crap in the road on a daily basis in every city, state, country in the world we have to be concerned about..

The primary reason cattle are in the road here is they escaped, not because someone is moving them. Cows, lamas, alpacas, horses, bulls, pigs.. all escape, all the time here. Fences break, gates break when no one is around and they get out and run amuck, then you get a show as the sheriff and other "cowboys" get on their horses and lasso and round them up...

What do you mean what is wrong with the place if there are animals in the road? Doesn't that happen everywhere? I am not aware of a place where animals do not go into the road. It isn;t like we are the only animals living on this planet, we have been living alongside them for quite some time now. If it isn't cows, it is horses, deer, moose, elephants.. hell in California it is seals.. LOL


You are assuming the car has a steering wheel or a driver.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/28/technology/googles-next-phase-in-driverless-cars-no-brakes-or-steering-wheel.html
you have done very poor screening of those links then.

I wonder why no speed cameras were established on those roads then. sounds like you have a big problem and instead of admitting it you are claiming that the fix to that problem is somehow dangerous. no wonder car accidents is the second most common cause of death in US.

dealer hacking link: "The staff suspected malfunctions in a new Internet device, installed behind dashboards of second-hand cars, that allowed the dealership to remind customers of overdue payments by taking remote control of some vehicle functions. "
Oh, we just installed this extremely illegal device in your car but its not our fault your car didnt start because of it. This dealership management should be in jail now.

the rest of the post goes into posturing how scary "the evil internet" is and how they want government to choke it to death. i especially love this one: "?I don?t want to want to wait until there are cars crashing on the news every month,? Charlie Miller says". Well i do, that would mean a 30-fold reduction in car crashes. Only one major crash a month as opposed to one major crash per day!

Well i guess you should stop driving right now, because there is a computer inside every car that can make you crash now. since anything can be hacked, so can your car.

School hacks are common because there is a clash of horrible security (seriously, most schools dont even have IT personnel at all, just a regular teacher that "knows computers" setting everything up) and the crowd that is most likely to have innovative hackers - young people. worth noting that despite all that, this single gold truck is still more damage than all school hacks put together.

My cousin actually traps viruses and experiments on them to see what kind of damage they can inflict. Even with the security measures they have put in place to prevent computers from catching fire from viruses as they used to, there are still viruses that have been able to do some serious damage melting the motherboard and setting the printers on fire. There is no such thing as " secure" as no firewall or antivirus stops even 90%. Even the best software only stops like 75% and that is acceptable when it is not a car.
Either you just made this up or your cousin is actually extremely horrible at what he does. just put the virus in a sandbox and use emulated hardware instead of direct hook. the virus cant do shit. Also "printers on fire" has been a thing in the 90s, now it is literally impossible to do that even if your goal is intentionally to do that. So perhaps what you meant to say is your cousin used to trap viruses 20 years ago.

I had a single issue with a car computer for a single car. the issue consisted of falsely detecting engine error and going into error mode which mean the computer stopped regulating fuel intake. this meant that i was burning a bit more fuel than i should, so i had the computer brain replaced (for effing 130 euros) and now its fine again. Though granted i am only driving for 8 years so far so perhaps your experience is over a longer span of time. that being said, thats 1 car, 1 incident, over 8 years and 3 cars, with effects that are not dangerous. so its already beating your experience by far.

Ah, good, do you have the numbers of those cars meeting tornadoes and then killing its passenger from a falling tree? from what i understand that happens to you every other week there.

looks like you spent more time googling links. but you once again forgot to read them. most of them overlap and talk about same 3 topics, with the ending message of "we are aware of dangers and will pay attention to security". you should also realize that these cars will never get legalized unless they meet the same accident chance standards as regular cars anyway. Also some unrelated stories again, like the one about french car thieves.

And it doesnt matter what kind of animal it is. the procedure is almost always the same. perhaps it would be different if you met an aggressive bear or something. otherwise just stop and maneuver around.

No, animals dont go loose on the roads daily here. we have utilized a great thing called "a fence". Perhaps you Texans should try it too, it works great! Yes, once in a while we do have a deer break through a fence or something like that (deers love trying to jump over fences for some reason). But that is rare. as in you will see it once in 3 years.

and yes, all current driver-less cars DO have wheels and a person inside it. it may be different in the future, but it is like that now.
No, this is not 20 years ago, this is STILL a problem today. I think you misunderstand how our well internet security actually works..
http://securitywatch.pcmag.com/security/323973-is-antivirus-software-ineffective
http://www.computerworld.com/article/2472120/security0/how-useful-is-antivirus-software-.html
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/exclusive-millions-printers-open-devastating-hack-attack-researchers-say-f118851
http://www.pcworld.com/article/236875/batteries_go_boom.html

My cousin does what he does very well. He is not trying to stop the viruses.. he does the opposite, he tries to see what damages they can actually do if you have some ignorant operator that just lets the viruses pile up on their computer ( LIKE MANY PEOPLE WHO USE THEM TODAY) and do not take active measures to stop their progress. SO many these days disable their firewalls because they think using their crappy shareware is more important than having a firewall slow them down. They are more concerned with opening the garbage files they want to than making sure any of it is safe to do so. Thousands of viruses are created daily. most are not that bad, but some are pretty awful.

Here is the thing you do not seem to understand. "The government" isn't going to be able to provide you with better security.. they are getting hacked more often than you do. No one can provide you with better security because it isn't something that actually exists. They are not fear mongering you into having more government control, as that would not even help the situation. The reality is it is impossible to secure the internet, so you should not allow things that need to be secure access to the internet. That is the only option to actually secure them. I was being extremely generous with the 75%, it is actually less secure, not more than it was years ago when antivirus stopped up to 75%. The reality is the code for your antivirus was already broken and they can do as they please with that as well, you can go get any program you wish for free as the codes are ALL cracked and available online. LOL

" Internet security" is pretty much something people tell themselves to give them a false sense of security, but is not going to be effective if you are actually targeted. The car I am driving now is a custom built car and no it does not have GPS. 3 of my brothers are mechanics, and my Dad was a prostock race car driver who designed, built and raced prostock cars... The cars I had the most problems with the computers on were ones I bought from dealerships, not had built for me to my specifications.

It very much " does matter what kind of animal it is" .. Yes they are in fences, then fences break and animals get out.. we have WILD animals here as well and that is the real world. We have 90mph straight winds here, even when there are not tornadoes...
I really have to see this "gator fence" you made to keep all the gators from the creeks, swamps, lakes and streams out of the road as well. HAHAHA.

They DID have no wheel cars on the road..They started testing driverless care with no steering wheel on the roads in 2014, but were forced to add steering even though google claims that made the cars less safe.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/may/28/google-reveals-driverless-car-prototype
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/11051009/Google-forced-to-add-steering-wheel-to-driverless-cars.html
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
8,407
0
0
Lil devils x said:
No, this is not 20 years ago, this is STILL a problem today. I think you misunderstand how our well internet security actually works..
http://securitywatch.pcmag.com/security/323973-is-antivirus-software-ineffective
http://www.computerworld.com/article/2472120/security0/how-useful-is-antivirus-software-.html
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/exclusive-millions-printers-open-devastating-hack-attack-researchers-say-f118851
http://www.pcworld.com/article/236875/batteries_go_boom.html

My cousin does what he does very well. He is not trying to stop the viruses.. he does the opposite, he tries to see what damages they can actually do if you have some ignorant operator that just lets the viruses pile up on their computer ( LIKE MANY PEOPLE WHO USE THEM TODAY) and do not take active measures to stop their progress. SO many these days disable their firewalls because they think using their crappy shareware is more important than having a firewall slow them down. They are more concerned with opening the garbage files they want to than making sure any of it is safe to do so. Thousands of viruses are created daily. most are not that bad, but some are pretty awful.

Here is the thing you do not seem to understand. "The government" isn't going to be able to provide you with better security.. they are getting hacked more often than you do. No one can provide you with better security because it isn't something that actually exists. They are not fear mongering you into having more government control, as that would not even help the situation. The reality is it is impossible to secure the internet, so you should not allow things that need to be secure access to the internet. That is the only option to actually secure them. I was being extremely generous with the 75%, it is actually less secure, not more than it was years ago when antivirus stopped up to 75%. The reality is the code for your antivirus was already broken and they can do as they please with that as well, you can go get any program you wish for free as the codes are ALL cracked and available online. LOL

" Internet security" is pretty much something people tell themselves to give them a false sense of security, but is not going to be effective if you are actually targeted. The car I am driving now is a custom built car and no it does not have GPS. 3 of my brothers are mechanics, and my Dad was a prostock race car driver who designed, built and raced prostock cars... The cars I had the most problems with the computers on were ones I bought from dealerships, not had built for me to my specifications.

It very much " does matter what kind of animal it is" .. Yes they are in fences, then fences break and animals get out.. we have WILD animals here as well and that is the real world. We have 90mph straight winds here, even when there are not tornadoes...
I really have to see this "gator fence" you made to keep all the gators from the creeks, swamps, lakes and streams out of the road as well. HAHAHA.

They DID have no wheel cars on the road..They started testing driverless care with no steering wheel on the roads in 2014, but were forced to add steering even though google claims that made the cars less safe.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/may/28/google-reveals-driverless-car-prototype
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/11051009/Google-forced-to-add-steering-wheel-to-driverless-cars.html


No, burning printers is not a problem today, hasnt been for 20 years. the problem with overheating ink compartment was fixed two decades ago and now they cannot physically burn regardless of what they are told to do. it is physically impossible.

I see you keep google handy to add links not relevant to what you are saying again!

1st link: shows that some antivirus software in VirusTotal is ineffective. hardly big news, some antiviruses are better than others. not related to internet security.

2nd link: even more outdated virus total test with the writer not knowing what the results mean. do note that only 2 of the dozens of tested viruses were actually not detected. at least the author recognizes poor performers in the scan this time. though not enough to realize the premise is incorrect to begin with.

heres a more realistic comparison done by actual independent security organization:


3rd link: Is HP. of couse its HP. their troubles never end :D. Still nothing new here. remote access to internet printers, no fire hazards. but yes, lets include the obligatory "internet printers are insecure, stop using them".

4th link: no fire hazard either, only a chance of making your computer unusable by making it think the battery is broken. they also hint at code injection but does not prove any such exploit exists. also apple being insecure again is just apple doing its thing. Do note that you need physical access to the computer for this, and if the hacker has physical access he can disable any security anyway.

No, if what you describe is correct then your cousin is not doing his job correctly. i gave you two simple steps how to enable him to work without destruction of the test computer regardless of what virus does. something any security researched should know.

i never claimed the government is providing any security whatsoever. not sure where that is coming from. the link where i mention government takeover most definitely is trying to scare people into internet panic and begs for government regulation though.

wait, did you just equate cracking a license on an antivirus (something not all antivirus crackers managed succesfully even) to reverse engineering the real time scanner? thats not even in the same league. its the difference between being able to download copyrtighted version of an ubisoft game without uplay and a modder rebuilding all game mechanics as he reverse engineer the games engine.

a simple fence suffices here. we have no aligators. though if we had we probably found a face to keep them out too. most wild animals dont make it thier live goals to break fences you know. like i said, animal on a road happens, but rarely, not the daily occurrence you make it out to be.

No, they didnt. what your links said is that they wanted to, but their first test vehicles still had manual control because otherwise they would not be street-legal.

P.S. happy new years. i may be slow to respond due to the holiday weekend.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

More Lego Goats Please!
May 17, 2011
2,728
0
0
Strazdas said:
Lil devils x said:
No, this is not 20 years ago, this is STILL a problem today. I think you misunderstand how our well internet security actually works..
http://securitywatch.pcmag.com/security/323973-is-antivirus-software-ineffective
http://www.computerworld.com/article/2472120/security0/how-useful-is-antivirus-software-.html
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/exclusive-millions-printers-open-devastating-hack-attack-researchers-say-f118851
http://www.pcworld.com/article/236875/batteries_go_boom.html

My cousin does what he does very well. He is not trying to stop the viruses.. he does the opposite, he tries to see what damages they can actually do if you have some ignorant operator that just lets the viruses pile up on their computer ( LIKE MANY PEOPLE WHO USE THEM TODAY) and do not take active measures to stop their progress. SO many these days disable their firewalls because they think using their crappy shareware is more important than having a firewall slow them down. They are more concerned with opening the garbage files they want to than making sure any of it is safe to do so. Thousands of viruses are created daily. most are not that bad, but some are pretty awful.

Here is the thing you do not seem to understand. "The government" isn't going to be able to provide you with better security.. they are getting hacked more often than you do. No one can provide you with better security because it isn't something that actually exists. They are not fear mongering you into having more government control, as that would not even help the situation. The reality is it is impossible to secure the internet, so you should not allow things that need to be secure access to the internet. That is the only option to actually secure them. I was being extremely generous with the 75%, it is actually less secure, not more than it was years ago when antivirus stopped up to 75%. The reality is the code for your antivirus was already broken and they can do as they please with that as well, you can go get any program you wish for free as the codes are ALL cracked and available online. LOL

" Internet security" is pretty much something people tell themselves to give them a false sense of security, but is not going to be effective if you are actually targeted. The car I am driving now is a custom built car and no it does not have GPS. 3 of my brothers are mechanics, and my Dad was a prostock race car driver who designed, built and raced prostock cars... The cars I had the most problems with the computers on were ones I bought from dealerships, not had built for me to my specifications.

It very much " does matter what kind of animal it is" .. Yes they are in fences, then fences break and animals get out.. we have WILD animals here as well and that is the real world. We have 90mph straight winds here, even when there are not tornadoes...
I really have to see this "gator fence" you made to keep all the gators from the creeks, swamps, lakes and streams out of the road as well. HAHAHA.

They DID have no wheel cars on the road..They started testing driverless care with no steering wheel on the roads in 2014, but were forced to add steering even though google claims that made the cars less safe.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/may/28/google-reveals-driverless-car-prototype
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/11051009/Google-forced-to-add-steering-wheel-to-driverless-cars.html


No, burning printers is not a problem today, hasnt been for 20 years. the problem with overheating ink compartment was fixed two decades ago and now they cannot physically burn regardless of what they are told to do. it is physically impossible.

I see you keep google handy to add links not relevant to what you are saying again!

1st link: shows that some antivirus software in VirusTotal is ineffective. hardly big news, some antiviruses are better than others. not related to internet security.

2nd link: even more outdated virus total test with the writer not knowing what the results mean. do note that only 2 of the dozens of tested viruses were actually not detected. at least the author recognizes poor performers in the scan this time. though not enough to realize the premise is incorrect to begin with.

heres a more realistic comparison done by actual independent security organization:


3rd link: Is HP. of couse its HP. their troubles never end :D. Still nothing new here. remote access to internet printers, no fire hazards. but yes, lets include the obligatory "internet printers are insecure, stop using them".

4th link: no fire hazard either, only a chance of making your computer unusable by making it think the battery is broken. they also hint at code injection but does not prove any such exploit exists. also apple being insecure again is just apple doing its thing. Do note that you need physical access to the computer for this, and if the hacker has physical access he can disable any security anyway.

No, if what you describe is correct then your cousin is not doing his job correctly. i gave you two simple steps how to enable him to work without destruction of the test computer regardless of what virus does. something any security researched should know.

i never claimed the government is providing any security whatsoever. not sure where that is coming from. the link where i mention government takeover most definitely is trying to scare people into internet panic and begs for government regulation though.

wait, did you just equate cracking a license on an antivirus (something not all antivirus crackers managed succesfully even) to reverse engineering the real time scanner? thats not even in the same league. its the difference between being able to download copyrtighted version of an ubisoft game without uplay and a modder rebuilding all game mechanics as he reverse engineer the games engine.

a simple fence suffices here. we have no aligators. though if we had we probably found a face to keep them out too. most wild animals dont make it thier live goals to break fences you know. like i said, animal on a road happens, but rarely, not the daily occurrence you make it out to be.

No, they didnt. what your links said is that they wanted to, but their first test vehicles still had manual control because otherwise they would not be street-legal.

P.S. happy new years. i may be slow to respond due to the holiday weekend.
I think you misunderstand again. It isn't his job to protect the test machine, the test machine is expendable. It is his job to see what happens when " humans are humans" and neglect their firewall and antivirus when exposed to extreme viruses. When humans are busy being humans, that means they frequently do not take ANY measures to protect their machines and instead actively take measures that further compromise their computers to allow them to "do what they want to do" be damned the consequences because that is the reality of what many humans actually do. Luckily, most of these humans though are not exposed to the extreme viruses he is trapping to test, but if they were it would not be pretty.

You just inserted a giant ad for emsisoft showing how emsisoft is better than other antivirus and that is supposed to provide what to the discussion? Of course companies trying to get you to use their products are not going to tell you how little they actually protect you from.. None of the antivirus companies are going to do that, that is why we have independent studies like the one I was discussing. I know people like to think they are secure, but the sad truth is, they really are not. You can trust what "Security" companies trying to get you to use their products have to say about it as far as you can throw your computer... They are not going to start advertising they catch so little of what is actually out there anytime soon.

No cracking the license is not the same as having the code.. I am not putting the links here, but yes you can get all of the code for these programs online quite easily to do with as you please with it.. I would suggest using an alt browser, TOR and deep web search engines b4 heading in that direction for research though.. LOL

Animals on the roads here are a daily issue.. but we also have a great variety of animals to break and get around fences here and A ton of ground to cover, it isn't like Texas is some small amount of land here. Bobcats and mountain lions jump right over fences like they are not even there. We have deer, cows, bulls, feral hogs, alligators.. and much much more.

http://gametrails.org/mountain-lion-more-numerous-than-you-might-think-by-luke-clayton/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3030985/My-big-teeth-Man-captures-giant-400lb-11ft-alligator-bare-hands-Texas-family-s-backyard-pond.html
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/a-plague-of-pigs-in-texas-73769069/?no-ist
Happy New year!
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
8,407
0
0
Lil devils x said:
I think you misunderstand again. It isn't his job to protect the test machine, the test machine is expendable. It is his job to see what happens when " humans are humans" and neglect their firewall and antivirus when exposed to extreme viruses. When humans are busy being humans, that means they frequently do not take ANY measures to protect their machines and instead actively take measures that further compromise their computers to allow them to "do what they want to do" be damned the consequences because that is the reality of what many humans actually do. Luckily, most of these humans though are not exposed to the extreme viruses he is trapping to test, but if they were it would not be pretty.

You just inserted a giant ad for emsisoft showing how emsisoft is better than other antivirus and that is supposed to provide what to the discussion? Of course companies trying to get you to use their products are not going to tell you how little they actually protect you from.. None of the antivirus companies are going to do that, that is why we have independent studies like the one I was discussing. I know people like to think they are secure, but the sad truth is, they really are not. You can trust what "Security" companies trying to get you to use their products have to say about it as far as you can throw your computer... They are not going to start advertising they catch so little of what is actually out there anytime soon.

No cracking the license is not the same as having the code.. I am not putting the links here, but yes you can get all of the code for these programs online quite easily to do with as you please with it.. I would suggest using an alt browser, TOR and deep web search engines b4 heading in that direction for research though.. LOL

Animals on the roads here are a daily issue.. but we also have a great variety of animals to break and get around fences here and A ton of ground to cover, it isn't like Texas is some small amount of land here. Bobcats and mountain lions jump right over fences like they are not even there. We have deer, cows, bulls, feral hogs, alligators.. and much much more.

http://gametrails.org/mountain-lion-more-numerous-than-you-might-think-by-luke-clayton/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3030985/My-big-teeth-Man-captures-giant-400lb-11ft-alligator-bare-hands-Texas-family-s-backyard-pond.html
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/a-plague-of-pigs-in-texas-73769069/?no-ist
Happy New year!
That test can still be done in a safe enviroment without killing the test machine. note that i never told you what your cousins job should be, nor do i really care. you keep bringing your family members all around though.

I inserted a reputable testing agency results. it is as much of an advertisement as GPU benchmarks are advertisement for Nvidia. yes, it shows Emsisoft as the best, but it is impossible to accurately benchmark something without one tested object ending up better than the other.

What i linked is an actual independent study you wanted so much. what you linked is some bloggers not even knowing how the tools they used works and writing about it.

oh, i have no doubt there may be some source code for these antiviruses in the so called darknet. very few people even know about it let alone navigate it though. and even source code does not guarantee that the person getting it is going to find a way to exploit it. note that im not saying that the exploit is not possible, merely that you significantly overestimate the chances of an average user ever meeting one.

well Texas has a population of 25.1 million people, so its not like its 5 people having to take care of all the fences. if animals on a road is a daily occurrence then clearly the traffic institution is not doing its job properly.

the first link ironically states "i spent my whole life outdoors but ive never seen a mountain lion", opening with a statement that they are, in fact, very rare. im not even going to give the click for dailymail, not a source to be trusted on anything.

third link - wild hogs. yep, those are a problem here as well. though they tend to be smart animals in that they go for farms to dig up rather than into traffic. i dont remmeber a single story where a hog stopped traffic but ive seen plenty where they attacked farmers even to the point where they attacked the guard dog. though i may be a bit biased since my grandfathers farm was one of the invaded ones. still, same solution really, fences. ever since they built fences on that farm the hogs moved elsewhere. the fences went without maintenance for almost 20 years now and im still not aware of any hog presence.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

More Lego Goats Please!
May 17, 2011
2,728
0
0
Strazdas said:
Lil devils x said:
I think you misunderstand again. It isn't his job to protect the test machine, the test machine is expendable. It is his job to see what happens when " humans are humans" and neglect their firewall and antivirus when exposed to extreme viruses. When humans are busy being humans, that means they frequently do not take ANY measures to protect their machines and instead actively take measures that further compromise their computers to allow them to "do what they want to do" be damned the consequences because that is the reality of what many humans actually do. Luckily, most of these humans though are not exposed to the extreme viruses he is trapping to test, but if they were it would not be pretty.

You just inserted a giant ad for emsisoft showing how emsisoft is better than other antivirus and that is supposed to provide what to the discussion? Of course companies trying to get you to use their products are not going to tell you how little they actually protect you from.. None of the antivirus companies are going to do that, that is why we have independent studies like the one I was discussing. I know people like to think they are secure, but the sad truth is, they really are not. You can trust what "Security" companies trying to get you to use their products have to say about it as far as you can throw your computer... They are not going to start advertising they catch so little of what is actually out there anytime soon.

No cracking the license is not the same as having the code.. I am not putting the links here, but yes you can get all of the code for these programs online quite easily to do with as you please with it.. I would suggest using an alt browser, TOR and deep web search engines b4 heading in that direction for research though.. LOL

Animals on the roads here are a daily issue.. but we also have a great variety of animals to break and get around fences here and A ton of ground to cover, it isn't like Texas is some small amount of land here. Bobcats and mountain lions jump right over fences like they are not even there. We have deer, cows, bulls, feral hogs, alligators.. and much much more.

http://gametrails.org/mountain-lion-more-numerous-than-you-might-think-by-luke-clayton/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3030985/My-big-teeth-Man-captures-giant-400lb-11ft-alligator-bare-hands-Texas-family-s-backyard-pond.html
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/a-plague-of-pigs-in-texas-73769069/?no-ist
Happy New year!
That test can still be done in a safe enviroment without killing the test machine. note that i never told you what your cousins job should be, nor do i really care. you keep bringing your family members all around though.

I inserted a reputable testing agency results. it is as much of an advertisement as GPU benchmarks are advertisement for Nvidia. yes, it shows Emsisoft as the best, but it is impossible to accurately benchmark something without one tested object ending up better than the other.

What i linked is an actual independent study you wanted so much. what you linked is some bloggers not even knowing how the tools they used works and writing about it.

oh, i have no doubt there may be some source code for these antiviruses in the so called darknet. very few people even know about it let alone navigate it though. and even source code does not guarantee that the person getting it is going to find a way to exploit it. note that im not saying that the exploit is not possible, merely that you significantly overestimate the chances of an average user ever meeting one.

well Texas has a population of 25.1 million people, so its not like its 5 people having to take care of all the fences. if animals on a road is a daily occurrence then clearly the traffic institution is not doing its job properly.

the first link ironically states "i spent my whole life outdoors but ive never seen a mountain lion", opening with a statement that they are, in fact, very rare. im not even going to give the click for dailymail, not a source to be trusted on anything.

third link - wild hogs. yep, those are a problem here as well. though they tend to be smart animals in that they go for farms to dig up rather than into traffic. i dont remmeber a single story where a hog stopped traffic but ive seen plenty where they attacked farmers even to the point where they attacked the guard dog. though i may be a bit biased since my grandfathers farm was one of the invaded ones. still, same solution really, fences. ever since they built fences on that farm the hogs moved elsewhere. the fences went without maintenance for almost 20 years now and im still not aware of any hog presence.

Please re-link this so called " independent study", as all I saw was an ad for emisoft. To be "independent", the company cannot be profiting from the test or internet security. The issue here is that yes, a program may be better than others, HOWEVER, being king turd on poo hill isn't exactly what we need to call something " secure". If none of the programs are detecting a very large amount of new viruses and Trojans, and they fail to use those viruses and Trojans in their study, exactly how do they show what they are missing? Oh yea.. they do not, because that is not the intention of this, this is just to compare products showing what they can do in comparison to each other,( when exposed to specific virus and Trojans) not focus on what all of them are unable to do. The university study I was discussing above was showing that none of the antivirus programs were detecting much.. This isn't something that everyone working in security didn't already know already, but of course it is pointless for them to focus on that fact while they are trying to sell products. Now antivirus is NOT completely useless, it gets much of the obvious and abundant muck, however, it in no way provides what anyone should really consider " secure internet" because that is just a myth.

In regards to the links about animals.. you do realize that was meant to be humorous.. I have personally seen multiple mountain lions here... just because some guy never saw one does not mean many other people do not. I actually saw this mountain lion being discussed here:

http://www.roysecityheraldbanner.com/news/local_news/critter-concerns-continue-in-county/article_e238068c-e706-5964-8c98-3e0d4f740c67.html

AND another holding a deer by the throat about 3 feet from the side of the road driving home one night and a cub in a field that the parks and wildlife department managed to catch. Just because that guy does not see them does not mean they are not very much present. The daily mail link was about a guy finding an alligator in the pond.. I actually linked that because my brother had a similar experience here in the pond near their house while fishing and he did not try to catch it .. he just ran away terrified and called the sheriff. LOL The point is we live alongside much wildlife and no we do not have it under " control" in any way. We have roadkill on every road around here, and some is not as small as the common armadillos, skunks, dogs, or rabbits. The reality is we do not live in a zoo where all the animals are contained. In the real world, the animals are not all contained.

Hogs are not just a digging issue here..
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-11-28/texas-feral-hog-wrecks-mark-losing-battle-with-animals
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Huge-reptile-blocks-North-Texas-highway-6332634.php

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Texas-State-University-issues-alert-for-loose-6399416.php

Though I do find it very strange that you would suggest we could keep all animals contained and out of roads in a state that is 268,820 sq miles large and filled with quite an array of wildlife. Really? Is that seriously your argument?

There is only one constant in this world and that is change. We live on an ever changing planet with a great variety of animals, natural and man made disasters, and unknown factors that we are forced to change and adapt to, often at a moments notice. This is what will be expected of autonomous vehicles as well if we expect them to be able to safely navigate our streets long term. Having a rail or closed route for them is one thing, having them exposed to the same events humans are forced to adapt to is another matter all together.
 

FalloutJack

Bah weep grah nah neep ninny bom
Nov 20, 2008
15,489
0
0
Ah, I see. So, it's obviously the drivers' fault for having instincts, not that traffic laws can sometimes expect too much or that their programming will never manage to properly replicate human driving without BEING human? Right, gotcha.
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
8,407
0
0
Lil devils x said:
Please re-link this so called " independent study", as all I saw was an ad for emisoft. To be "independent", the company cannot be profiting from the test or internet security. The issue here is that yes, a program may be better than others, HOWEVER, being king turd on poo hill isn't exactly what we need to call something " secure". If none of the programs are detecting a very large amount of new viruses and Trojans, and they fail to use those viruses and Trojans in their study, exactly how do they show what they are missing? Oh yea.. they do not, because that is not the intention of this, this is just to compare products showing what they can do in comparison to each other,( when exposed to specific virus and Trojans) not focus on what all of them are unable to do. The university study I was discussing above was showing that none of the antivirus programs were detecting much.. This isn't something that everyone working in security didn't already know already, but of course it is pointless for them to focus on that fact while they are trying to sell products. Now antivirus is NOT completely useless, it gets much of the obvious and abundant muck, however, it in no way provides what anyone should really consider " secure internet" because that is just a myth.

In regards to the links about animals.. you do realize that was meant to be humorous.. I have personally seen multiple mountain lions here... just because some guy never saw one does not mean many other people do not. I actually saw this mountain lion being discussed here:

http://www.roysecityheraldbanner.com/news/local_news/critter-concerns-continue-in-county/article_e238068c-e706-5964-8c98-3e0d4f740c67.html

AND another holding a deer by the throat about 3 feet from the side of the road driving home one night and a cub in a field that the parks and wildlife department managed to catch. Just because that guy does not see them does not mean they are not very much present. The daily mail link was about a guy finding an alligator in the pond.. I actually linked that because my brother had a similar experience here in the pond near their house while fishing and he did not try to catch it .. he just ran away terrified and called the sheriff. LOL The point is we live alongside much wildlife and no we do not have it under " control" in any way. We have roadkill on every road around here, and some is not as small as the common armadillos, skunks, dogs, or rabbits. The reality is we do not live in a zoo where all the animals are contained. In the real world, the animals are not all contained.

Hogs are not just a digging issue here..
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-11-28/texas-feral-hog-wrecks-mark-losing-battle-with-animals
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Huge-reptile-blocks-North-Texas-highway-6332634.php

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Texas-State-University-issues-alert-for-loose-6399416.php

Though I do find it very strange that you would suggest we could keep all animals contained and out of roads in a state that is 268,820 sq miles large and filled with quite an array of wildlife. Really? Is that seriously your argument?

There is only one constant in this world and that is change. We live on an ever changing planet with a great variety of animals, natural and man made disasters, and unknown factors that we are forced to change and adapt to, often at a moments notice. This is what will be expected of autonomous vehicles as well if we expect them to be able to safely navigate our streets long term. Having a rail or closed route for them is one thing, having them exposed to the same events humans are forced to adapt to is another matter all together.
Sure, here, i even found that they released a new one last month
http://www.av-comparatives.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/avc_prot_2015b_en.pdf

You have repeatedly failed to prove that no programs detect large swathes of viruses, wheas i have shown actual reports showing that they indeed block majority of viruses. No, they are not foolproof, but they are hardly ineffective.

No, in fact both the blogs you linked showed that in fact majority of viruses tested were detected by the major brand antiviruses and its those low end ineffective ones that were missing more of them. Please if you are using something as a source to support your point at least make sure it actually does support your point.

Ech i believe there are mountain lions in the region, i just found it funny how you would use a blog of a person that claims to never have seen one as a proof that there are many of them. I still dont think they are as plentiful as you make them out to be, though.

That 6 years old article you linked is just general tips to avoid attacking wildlife and the only mention of mountain lions i noticed was the one where one supposedly attacked the new sheriffs dog.

First link:
4 hogs per hour, $5 billion in damage annually. holy shit. you guys do realize that having fences would be cheaper even if you had to replace the entire fence every year? and no, hogs dont go through fences as i already noted in my last post. but if its really that horrible of a situation where on a single road there are 4 hogs ran over per hour then perhaps i can understand your concern, though it should be directed at whoever is responsible for not having fences near the roads instead of google cars. Also as the article claims, humans are not reacting fast enough to avoid them, so self driving cars with better reaction times would probably significantly decrease those damages too by simply not ramming every hog that crosses the road. Also, thank you, finally you linked to something that actually supports your claim well.

second link: no accidents, people were stopping to take snapshots rather than to avoid the gator, gator peacefully taken care of. i dont see a problem?

third link: there are more advertisement than text in there. anyway, somone lost a bull and campus studens seemt to be happy about it? not sure how its related to anything really.

no, i never said we could keep all animals contained or that we should do it. merely utilize fences so there are less animals being hit by cars. you know, something that has already worked elsewhere.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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May 17, 2011
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Strazdas said:
Lil devils x said:
Please re-link this so called " independent study", as all I saw was an ad for emisoft. To be "independent", the company cannot be profiting from the test or internet security. The issue here is that yes, a program may be better than others, HOWEVER, being king turd on poo hill isn't exactly what we need to call something " secure". If none of the programs are detecting a very large amount of new viruses and Trojans, and they fail to use those viruses and Trojans in their study, exactly how do they show what they are missing? Oh yea.. they do not, because that is not the intention of this, this is just to compare products showing what they can do in comparison to each other,( when exposed to specific virus and Trojans) not focus on what all of them are unable to do. The university study I was discussing above was showing that none of the antivirus programs were detecting much.. This isn't something that everyone working in security didn't already know already, but of course it is pointless for them to focus on that fact while they are trying to sell products. Now antivirus is NOT completely useless, it gets much of the obvious and abundant muck, however, it in no way provides what anyone should really consider " secure internet" because that is just a myth.

In regards to the links about animals.. you do realize that was meant to be humorous.. I have personally seen multiple mountain lions here... just because some guy never saw one does not mean many other people do not. I actually saw this mountain lion being discussed here:

http://www.roysecityheraldbanner.com/news/local_news/critter-concerns-continue-in-county/article_e238068c-e706-5964-8c98-3e0d4f740c67.html

AND another holding a deer by the throat about 3 feet from the side of the road driving home one night and a cub in a field that the parks and wildlife department managed to catch. Just because that guy does not see them does not mean they are not very much present. The daily mail link was about a guy finding an alligator in the pond.. I actually linked that because my brother had a similar experience here in the pond near their house while fishing and he did not try to catch it .. he just ran away terrified and called the sheriff. LOL The point is we live alongside much wildlife and no we do not have it under " control" in any way. We have roadkill on every road around here, and some is not as small as the common armadillos, skunks, dogs, or rabbits. The reality is we do not live in a zoo where all the animals are contained. In the real world, the animals are not all contained.

Hogs are not just a digging issue here..
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-11-28/texas-feral-hog-wrecks-mark-losing-battle-with-animals
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Huge-reptile-blocks-North-Texas-highway-6332634.php

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Texas-State-University-issues-alert-for-loose-6399416.php

Though I do find it very strange that you would suggest we could keep all animals contained and out of roads in a state that is 268,820 sq miles large and filled with quite an array of wildlife. Really? Is that seriously your argument?

There is only one constant in this world and that is change. We live on an ever changing planet with a great variety of animals, natural and man made disasters, and unknown factors that we are forced to change and adapt to, often at a moments notice. This is what will be expected of autonomous vehicles as well if we expect them to be able to safely navigate our streets long term. Having a rail or closed route for them is one thing, having them exposed to the same events humans are forced to adapt to is another matter all together.
Sure, here, i even found that they released a new one last month
http://www.av-comparatives.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/avc_prot_2015b_en.pdf

You have repeatedly failed to prove that no programs detect large swathes of viruses, wheas i have shown actual reports showing that they indeed block majority of viruses. No, they are not foolproof, but they are hardly ineffective.

No, in fact both the blogs you linked showed that in fact majority of viruses tested were detected by the major brand antiviruses and its those low end ineffective ones that were missing more of them. Please if you are using something as a source to support your point at least make sure it actually does support your point.

Ech i believe there are mountain lions in the region, i just found it funny how you would use a blog of a person that claims to never have seen one as a proof that there are many of them. I still dont think they are as plentiful as you make them out to be, though.

That 6 years old article you linked is just general tips to avoid attacking wildlife and the only mention of mountain lions i noticed was the one where one supposedly attacked the new sheriffs dog.

First link:
4 hogs per hour, $5 billion in damage annually. holy shit. you guys do realize that having fences would be cheaper even if you had to replace the entire fence every year? and no, hogs dont go through fences as i already noted in my last post. but if its really that horrible of a situation where on a single road there are 4 hogs ran over per hour then perhaps i can understand your concern, though it should be directed at whoever is responsible for not having fences near the roads instead of google cars. Also as the article claims, humans are not reacting fast enough to avoid them, so self driving cars with better reaction times would probably significantly decrease those damages too by simply not ramming every hog that crosses the road. Also, thank you, finally you linked to something that actually supports your claim well.

second link: no accidents, people were stopping to take snapshots rather than to avoid the gator, gator peacefully taken care of. i dont see a problem?

third link: there are more advertisement than text in there. anyway, somone lost a bull and campus studens seemt to be happy about it? not sure how its related to anything really.

no, i never said we could keep all animals contained or that we should do it. merely utilize fences so there are less animals being hit by cars. you know, something that has already worked elsewhere.
We are discussing two different things. I am discussing INTENTIONAL targeting, you show me a site that does "Put simply, the test framework replicates the scenario of an everyday user in an everyday online environment ? the typical situation that most of us experience when using a computer with an Internet connection." http://www.av-comparatives.org/about-us/

That is not what I am talking about at all. I am talking about people intentionally targeting the cars. The study I was discussing was focused on actually being targeted, not "typical" situations. IF they are targeting cars, it will not be "typical" and targeting cars will have much more severe outcomes. When you target someone s PC "typically", no one dies. When a car malfunctions, people DO typically die. The most important factor here between PC's and cars, is it has to be impossible to target the cars for them to be safe, which would mean they could not be hooked up to the internet.

I just told you the only reason I posted that article I linked was because they were discussing one of the mountain lions I have personally seen, since you were going on about how some guy never saw one. I saw THAT particular mountain lion they were discussing, along with others here.

You do realize we do not live in a zoo? The difference between being in the zoo and out of it is the animals are safely contained in the zoo, they are not in the rest of the world. You are talking about TEXAS here.. do you have any idea how many sq ft that is of fence? And yes, Texas does have quite a bit of fencing as it is, but not even remotely possible to fence in all the animals here, and we get high winds that tear down fences much more than once a year, cars break the fences, even ANIMALS break the fences.. People always compare Australia to Texas because of all the shit in both places that tries to kill you. LOL

Fences get broken MANY times a day, not once a year. Why would a land owner be forced to have a fence? Most home owners do not fence in their yards, Farmers do not fence in their fields. They do not own the wild animals that exist here, the wild animals belong to no one, so who would be fencing them in? Even when they build fences to keep them out they just break them as they see fit. That ridiculous bull who kept getting in our yard growing up and broke our front steps could care less what kind of fence you built.. he kept busting out of the electric fence his owner had in addition to the other fencing, that would just piss him off instead and turn him psycho.

I am showing you humorous links about the types of animals we deal with here, and you are talking about why there are no accidents with these animals while having human drivers? That isn't helping the case of driverless cars can handle the same situations humans can to be considered safe on the roads.

You are suggesting people utilize fences, when they ALREADY DO here and this happens ANYHOW with fences already being used. Texas is not lacking fences, ranchers do not enjoy when their livestock break loose. That is very costly for them. No matter what they try to do to prevent it, it still happens all over the place every day here. Living in the real world means we are not really that protected or sheltered from it, and the includes the wildlife we share it with here.
 

Strazdas

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May 28, 2011
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Lil devils x said:
We are discussing two different things. I am discussing INTENTIONAL targeting, you show me a site that does "Put simply, the test framework replicates the scenario of an everyday user in an everyday online environment ? the typical situation that most of us experience when using a computer with an Internet connection." http://www.av-comparatives.org/about-us/

That is not what I am talking about at all. I am talking about people intentionally targeting the cars. The study I was discussing was focused on actually being targeted, not "typical" situations. IF they are targeting cars, it will not be "typical" and targeting cars will have much more severe outcomes. When you target someone s PC "typically", no one dies. When a car malfunctions, people DO typically die. The most important factor here between PC's and cars, is it has to be impossible to target the cars for them to be safe, which would mean they could not be hooked up to the internet.

I just told you the only reason I posted that article I linked was because they were discussing one of the mountain lions I have personally seen, since you were going on about how some guy never saw one. I saw THAT particular mountain lion they were discussing, along with others here.

You do realize we do not live in a zoo? The difference between being in the zoo and out of it is the animals are safely contained in the zoo, they are not in the rest of the world. You are talking about TEXAS here.. do you have any idea how many sq ft that is of fence? And yes, Texas does have quite a bit of fencing as it is, but not even remotely possible to fence in all the animals here, and we get high winds that tear down fences much more than once a year, cars break the fences, even ANIMALS break the fences.. People always compare Australia to Texas because of all the shit in both places that tries to kill you. LOL

Fences get broken MANY times a day, not once a year. Why would a land owner be forced to have a fence? Most home owners do not fence in their yards, Farmers do not fence in their fields. They do not own the wild animals that exist here, the wild animals belong to no one, so who would be fencing them in? Even when they build fences to keep them out they just break them as they see fit. That ridiculous bull who kept getting in our yard growing up and broke our front steps could care less what kind of fence you built.. he kept busting out of the electric fence his owner had in addition to the other fencing, that would just piss him off instead and turn him psycho.

I am showing you humorous links about the types of animals we deal with here, and you are talking about why there are no accidents with these animals while having human drivers? That isn't helping the case of driverless cars can handle the same situations humans can to be considered safe on the roads.

You are suggesting people utilize fences, when they ALREADY DO here and this happens ANYHOW with fences already being used. Texas is not lacking fences, ranchers do not enjoy when their livestock break loose. That is very costly for them. No matter what they try to do to prevent it, it still happens all over the place every day here. Living in the real world means we are not really that protected or sheltered from it, and the includes the wildlife we share it with here.
What intentional targeting? whos targeting you? whos targeting your car? why do you think you are so important to be intentionally targeted by best hackers in the world? no, your, mine and 99.9% of population scenario is exactly the "most users using computer with internet connection" thing.

Actually no, majority of car malfunctions do not result in lethal injuries. in fact only minority of car crashes result in lethal injury.

Cars dont have to be "safe". only "safe enough" that the amount of injuries do not increase. we consider current amount acceptable (or else cars would not be legal), so if the amount does not increase (and its actually very likely to decrease on reality) they are "Good enough". You speak in absolutes, but real world does not work like that.

You do realize there is a middle ground between living in a zoo and everything running free everywhere, right? Yep, texas is pretty big so theres going to be quite a bit of fencing. though the damages quoted in previous article are already more than it would cost to fence all the major roads. And no, animals do not break fences every day. thats just nonsensical claim if your fence is anything but imaginary. unless texas is some magic land where something that works just fine everywhere else suddenly stops working because they have magical animals that make it their life goals to stop traffic.

Yes, most home owners do fence their yards and farmers fence their fields. i already talked about it actually in my wild hog story. No, the wild animals would not be "Fenced in", they would be "fenced out". if your animals break fences "As they see fit" then thats just a shit fence.

Wait so you were showcasing the dangers of animals on the road by showing me "humorous" links where there are no dangers?
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

More Lego Goats Please!
May 17, 2011
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Strazdas said:
Lil devils x said:
We are discussing two different things. I am discussing INTENTIONAL targeting, you show me a site that does "Put simply, the test framework replicates the scenario of an everyday user in an everyday online environment ? the typical situation that most of us experience when using a computer with an Internet connection." http://www.av-comparatives.org/about-us/

That is not what I am talking about at all. I am talking about people intentionally targeting the cars. The study I was discussing was focused on actually being targeted, not "typical" situations. IF they are targeting cars, it will not be "typical" and targeting cars will have much more severe outcomes. When you target someone s PC "typically", no one dies. When a car malfunctions, people DO typically die. The most important factor here between PC's and cars, is it has to be impossible to target the cars for them to be safe, which would mean they could not be hooked up to the internet.

I just told you the only reason I posted that article I linked was because they were discussing one of the mountain lions I have personally seen, since you were going on about how some guy never saw one. I saw THAT particular mountain lion they were discussing, along with others here.

You do realize we do not live in a zoo? The difference between being in the zoo and out of it is the animals are safely contained in the zoo, they are not in the rest of the world. You are talking about TEXAS here.. do you have any idea how many sq ft that is of fence? And yes, Texas does have quite a bit of fencing as it is, but not even remotely possible to fence in all the animals here, and we get high winds that tear down fences much more than once a year, cars break the fences, even ANIMALS break the fences.. People always compare Australia to Texas because of all the shit in both places that tries to kill you. LOL

Fences get broken MANY times a day, not once a year. Why would a land owner be forced to have a fence? Most home owners do not fence in their yards, Farmers do not fence in their fields. They do not own the wild animals that exist here, the wild animals belong to no one, so who would be fencing them in? Even when they build fences to keep them out they just break them as they see fit. That ridiculous bull who kept getting in our yard growing up and broke our front steps could care less what kind of fence you built.. he kept busting out of the electric fence his owner had in addition to the other fencing, that would just piss him off instead and turn him psycho.

I am showing you humorous links about the types of animals we deal with here, and you are talking about why there are no accidents with these animals while having human drivers? That isn't helping the case of driverless cars can handle the same situations humans can to be considered safe on the roads.

You are suggesting people utilize fences, when they ALREADY DO here and this happens ANYHOW with fences already being used. Texas is not lacking fences, ranchers do not enjoy when their livestock break loose. That is very costly for them. No matter what they try to do to prevent it, it still happens all over the place every day here. Living in the real world means we are not really that protected or sheltered from it, and the includes the wildlife we share it with here.
What intentional targeting? whos targeting you? whos targeting your car? why do you think you are so important to be intentionally targeted by best hackers in the world? no, your, mine and 99.9% of population scenario is exactly the "most users using computer with internet connection" thing.

Actually no, majority of car malfunctions do not result in lethal injuries. in fact only minority of car crashes result in lethal injury.

Cars dont have to be "safe". only "safe enough" that the amount of injuries do not increase. we consider current amount acceptable (or else cars would not be legal), so if the amount does not increase (and its actually very likely to decrease on reality) they are "Good enough". You speak in absolutes, but real world does not work like that.

You do realize there is a middle ground between living in a zoo and everything running free everywhere, right? Yep, texas is pretty big so theres going to be quite a bit of fencing. though the damages quoted in previous article are already more than it would cost to fence all the major roads. And no, animals do not break fences every day. thats just nonsensical claim if your fence is anything but imaginary. unless texas is some magic land where something that works just fine everywhere else suddenly stops working because they have magical animals that make it their life goals to stop traffic.

Yes, most home owners do fence their yards and farmers fence their fields. i already talked about it actually in my wild hog story. No, the wild animals would not be "Fenced in", they would be "fenced out". if your animals break fences "As they see fit" then thats just a shit fence.

Wait so you were showcasing the dangers of animals on the road by showing me "humorous" links where there are no dangers?
" terrorists" would not necessarily target one car, they very well could target many cars, as they often seek to do mass damage. When you have guys like the zetas killing internet chat room users, and taking anonymous hackers hostage, you should understand eventually this will become more of a problem than it is now the more criminals have access to these things.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/11/zetas-internet-murder_n_1087894.html
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/nov/02/anonymous-zetas-hacking-climbdown

Fatal crashes happen enough to be considered common rather than uncommon. In Texas alone we have over 3k lethal accidents a year. Showing that most accidents are not lethal does not take away from how many times a day this actually happens. I was under the impression that people didn't consider the current amount of accidents acceptable, and that is why they seek to reduce them every year. That is why they constantly improve safety standards. We have plenty of things that are legal that are not " safe enough" but that is because most of those things do not have the potential to do mass damage like car or plane does, thus why we have heavier regulation on those things. No most home owners do not fence in their front yards, which are the parts of their yards that meet the road, not at all. AND the majority of farm fields here are NOT fenced, I have no idea why you would think they would. YES the animals DO break the fences here every day, it seems silly you seem to think they do not. Have you ever worked with livestock? Bulls? Goats? Horses? Yes they do get out .. all the time, otherwise we would not need cowboys out rounding them up all the damn time.

Yes, I was showing you humorous links about the silly animal incidents here since obviously the animals had to go in the road to get where they were at... Of course there is no danger when people safely navigated around them while they were in the road because humans are capable of doing that easily.
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
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Lil devils x said:
" terrorists" would not necessarily target one car, they very well could target many cars, as they often seek to do mass damage. When you have guys like the zetas killing internet chat room users, and taking anonymous hackers hostage, you should understand eventually this will become more of a problem than it is now the more criminals have access to these things.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/11/zetas-internet-murder_n_1087894.html
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/nov/02/anonymous-zetas-hacking-climbdown

Fatal crashes happen enough to be considered common rather than uncommon. In Texas alone we have over 3k lethal accidents a year. Showing that most accidents are not lethal does not take away from how many times a day this actually happens. I was under the impression that people didn't consider the current amount of accidents acceptable, and that is why they seek to reduce them every year. That is why they constantly improve safety standards. We have plenty of things that are legal that are not " safe enough" but that is because most of those things do not have the potential to do mass damage like car or plane does, thus why we have heavier regulation on those things. No most home owners do not fence in their front yards, which are the parts of their yards that meet the road, not at all. AND the majority of farm fields here are NOT fenced, I have no idea why you would think they would. YES the animals DO break the fences here every day, it seems silly you seem to think they do not. Have you ever worked with livestock? Bulls? Goats? Horses? Yes they do get out .. all the time, otherwise we would not need cowboys out rounding them up all the damn time.

Yes, I was showing you humorous links about the silly animal incidents here since obviously the animals had to go in the road to get where they were at... Of course there is no danger when people safely navigated around them while they were in the road because humans are capable of doing that easily.
ah, the always looming threat of terrorists. If they see to do mass damage then they have failed because most people have died from falling out of bed than from terrorists in US. Also this is deliciuosly ironic since the terorrists have instilled terror in you without even having to do anything at all. they already won. Yep, being forwever afraid to do anything to improve quality of live in fear of "terrorists" is certainly going to defeat terrorism. no wonder your government is now breaking pretty much every human right under the guise of "fighting terrorism". terrorists became the new devil that everyone must fear.

Yes, organized crime is quite active online, this is nothing new though. anonymous went after Zetas themselves which forced the confrontation. though as far as i know only one hacker was ever taken hostage.

over 90% of crashes, especially the fatal ones, are casued by human error though. so even if malfuction crashes doubled removal of human error would be a significant improvement. You said you drive constantly, right? then you consider the current rate of accidents acceptable. otherwise you would refuse to use a car as too dangerous. but you drive, because the benefits outweigh the dangers. that does not mean we cannot put effort at increasing safety, merely that current state is acceptable to allow car traffic.

Oh, you mentioned planes. planes are pretty much self-driving already. the pilots there are mostly just to keep passengers happy and for landing the plane because human landing saves fuel somehow. the plane can land itself perfectly fine though. Pilots are mostly setting up the flight plan and leave it there. So by your logic terrorists should be hacking them left and right, yet, that never happened. we had terrorists taking over a plane and taking manual control, but no computer hacks. turns out if we removed manual control from planes 9/11 couldnt have happened. whoops.


Well i guess Texas is a magic land where animals make it their life's purpose of getting into traffic then because normal animals do not break out daily. I've worked with Cows and Pigs. there was one bull but horses. there were goats but i didnt interact with those. ive never seen any of them break out. ive seen a cow wander off when somone left the gate unlocked. but thats once again human error problem.


You do know that google cars are capable of navigating around animals too? they dont just maul them over.