Griefmonkeys

DeadlyYellow

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Jun 18, 2008
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So where do spawn campers fit in this? They are people actually playing the game, and purposely stopping other players from doing so.

I do see a bit of griefing in TF2, mostly with the snipers. People like to stand in front of them and stop them from doing their job. Also had a few cases with engineers who place teleporters in a way to prevent their teammates from reaching the medical cabinet.
 

Shamus Young

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DeadlyYellow said:
So where do spawn campers fit in this? They are people actually playing the game, and purposely stopping other players from doing so.
I think theyre just assholes, haha. Spawn camping takes no imagination and its usually people wanting to pad their frag counts.
 

Cpt_Oblivious

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Jan 7, 2009
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I once read that that griefer means someone who is more imaginative within games than the rest of us...

But some are just lazy. It's these who are bad, the rest are rather funny.

Edit: Your WoW example is an example of boring. An example of imaginative is the paladins I met who were showing a warrior cool tricks with flying mounts, they'd dismount above lakes in nagrand and bubbled just before they hit the shallow water. The warrior followed suit and promptly died.
 

Shamus Young

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DeadlyYellow said:
So where do spawn campers fit in this? They are people actually playing the game, and purposely stopping other players from doing so.

I do see a bit of griefing in TF2, mostly with the snipers. People like to stand in front of them and stop them from doing their job. Also had a few cases with engineers who place teleporters in a way to prevent their teammates from reaching the medical cabinet.
I do view the ability to spawn-camp in games as a design flaw. Perhaps not all spawn campers are griefers but assuming it's unwanted behavior it should be prevented. (With a server-side switch to disable the prevention for people who like the brutal "any means necessary" style of play.)

The player is given both the incentive (you get points) and the ability to do so. That's just inviting that sort of behavior.
 

Cpt_Oblivious

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Jan 7, 2009
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Shamus Young said:
DeadlyYellow said:
So where do spawn campers fit in this? They are people actually playing the game, and purposely stopping other players from doing so.

I do see a bit of griefing in TF2, mostly with the snipers. People like to stand in front of them and stop them from doing their job. Also had a few cases with engineers who place teleporters in a way to prevent their teammates from reaching the medical cabinet.
I do view the ability to spawn-camp in games as a design flaw. Perhaps not all spawn campers are griefers but assuming it's unwanted behavior it should be prevented. (With a server-side switch to disable the prevention for people who like the brutal "any means necessary" style of play.)

The player is given both the incentive (you get points) and the ability to do so. That's just inviting that sort of behavior.
We need technology to move the spawn point behind the camper.
 

Doug

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Apr 23, 2008
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Interesting article, although I do think cheaters are a form of griefer, as their fun comes at the price of everyone else's.

Anywho, the problem with trying to destroy griefers is the sheer complexity of even simple game worlds. Trying to predict every possible behaviour and countering them is extremely difficult to achieve, and near impossible when you factor in the complexity of online multiplayer games across the unpredictable internet.
 

oneplus999

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Oct 4, 2007
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In an online game, the guilty party is the one who allowed the griefing to happen in the first place. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at the developer.
While certainly many examples of griefing can be blamed on the developer, I can easily come up with valid game mechanics that there is simply no way to work around. For example, in the game DotA, there is a unit with the ability to have any nearby unit take a small amount of damage but get increased damage output. This can be used to kill enemies or help allies, or kill allies and help enemies. It's a good game mechanic, as it forces you to make a tough decision in certain situations, but in the wrong hands can be used in a manner that I believe fits your description of griefing. The only way that I see for the developer to prevent this would be to remove all game mechanics capable of providing both a plus and a minus to your allies or enemies.
 

i64ever

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Aug 26, 2008
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You put all the blame on the game developers. Is it possible to forsee all the ways somebody else can be a jerk?
 

Crystalgate

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Feb 7, 2009
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i64ever said:
You put all the blame on the game developers. Is it possible to forsee all the ways somebody else can be a jerk?
That's definitely not possible. I would however say that closing 75% of the loopholes griefers uses is better than doing nothing at all. Sure, the remaining 25% will see more use, but the overall griefing should decrease. The less loopholes there is, the less opportunities the griefer has. This should lead to a lower success rate for him even if he's pouring just as much energy as before into it.
 

SharedProphet

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Oct 9, 2008
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There are physical laws and there are rules, and everyone obeys the former even if they flaunt the latter.
Flaunt [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/flaunt] here should be flout [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/flout].

Anyway, I think both the griefers and the exploits that enable them should be dealt with. It's not really feasible to find every exploit before releasing a game of any significant complexity.
 

Andy_Panthro

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May 3, 2009
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Ah, you've reminded me why I don't bother playing online anymore. Just got sick of jerks, griefers and other assorted idiots. The only time I really enjoyed multiplayer gaming was with a Firearms/Counterstrike clan [KOD].
 

Time Travelling Toaster

The Toast with the 'Tache
Mar 1, 2009
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It depends on the greif, some are annoying (spawn campers) but some are funny the WoW like the one by Cpt_Oblivious or the penis grief on second life which I have lost the link to. Immature I know but I'm to tired to care.
 

Zankabo

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Sep 14, 2008
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Course, there is always the path Eve Online seems to take. They decide that griefers and scammers are just part of the game, and make it a 'selling point' of the game... a 'there is no real law here, so take care of yourself or die' kinda environment.

But yes, many of the ways griefers are able to really make a game less than fun is by exploiting bugs within a game, things that the developer should have caught when they were making the game. When I was in WoW I was always of the opinion that they should not have 'rules' to the game, they should have it coded in. If the game allows me to do something, then it should be legal to do, period. Should this not be how you intended the game to function, then fix it. Don't just tell me 'oh, by the way, there is this bug, please don't use it... we might fix it but really you should just not use it or we will punish you'. You fix the bug or you live with it, this is a game world where you control the entire environment after all!
 

zoozilla

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Dec 3, 2007
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The in-game griefer usually points the finger of blame at the victim for "sucking so bad," but that defense makes about as much sense as a rapist who says he's innocent because his victim wasn't any good at fighting back.

Griefers are annoying, but like spammers and syphilis they are an omnipresent threat that must be anticipated and protected against.
Comparing griefing to rape and syphilis? That's pretty heavy.
 

quiet_samurai

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Apr 24, 2009
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xmetatr0nx said:
DeadlyYellow said:
So where do spawn campers fit in this? They are people actually playing the game, and purposely stopping other players from doing so.
I think theyre just assholes, haha. Spawn camping takes no imagination and its usually people wanting to pad their frag counts.
it's so fun though, it's even better when you bring friends.
 

Lord Krunk

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Mar 3, 2008
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zoozilla said:
The in-game griefer usually points the finger of blame at the victim for "sucking so bad," but that defense makes about as much sense as a rapist who says he's innocent because his victim wasn't any good at fighting back.

Griefers are annoying, but like spammers and syphilis they are an omnipresent threat that must be anticipated and protected against.
Comparing griefing to rape and syphilis? That's pretty heavy.
Hey, it works.

I agree with Shamus in this case, although friendly fire exists mostly to pay attention to realism, that's not really what you're playing the game for.

And yet another reason why I love Team Fortress 2.
 

Downtym

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Oct 23, 2007
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Confession of an Online Griefer:

Why'd I do it? I could rationalize it so many different ways: I had a bad day at work, I needed to blow off steam, I had it happen to me, I wanted to see what would happen, on-and-on-and-on.

But, hey, let's be honest: I was bored and griefing you was more fun than actually playing the game. I wanted a toy to play with and you were there.

Yes, I'm a jerk. Yes, I'm a bully. Yes, I'm an online bastard that just needs to get a life. I've come to terms with all of those things, I've come to an acceptance that my inner child is an evil, wing ripping, hair pulling, mud-with-rocks throwing, stealing, lying brat.

I am unrepentant. I don't seek absolution through this. If anything, I'm griefing you now by explaining that no matter what you do (did), no matter how many times you curse(d) my name or wish(ed) I would die in a fire, I'm still here and the only reason I grief is because sometimes I get bored with playing with the game and need a new toy to entertain me before I log off. I just wanted to watch you dance for me and be my personal monkey.

It's really that simple for me. Some times I'm playing a game and I just get bored. Not bored enough to log off because if I do that well then there's nothing to do but work, clean, watch television, or sleep. And let's be fair, screwing around with another living human being is infinitely more entertaining than any of the other alternatives.

And there's nothing that game developers can do to stop me. Any game wherein you allow people to compete will inevitably allow griefers to spawn. What you can do is attempt to minimize their impact. The thing that a griefer steals, the grief they cause, is that the player(s) being griefed lose time. The more time the griefed player loses and the harsher that player is punished, then the more fun it is for the griefer.

Take UO or EQ, for example. Here are games where griefing someone the right way means that they could lose nearly *everything* they had worked for. EvE Online is similar. Griefing someone in a game with a harsh punishment mechanic is the very definition of fun because by training you, trapping you, or killing you I may have erased hours, days, or even months worth of work. Imagine killing someone in EQ to the extent that they could never get their corpse back - it's almost delightful in a twisted, torturing-a-fly way. Or standing just outside of town in UO, constantly blowing lower levels away for no other reason than you can. And in EvE, it's immensely fun to blow up someone's hard worked for ship in a suicide run then destroy the wreck so that nothing can be salvaged. Months of gametime vanished in the blink of an eye. (To those that would argue that you cannot grief in EvE then I humbly suggest that Empire is intended to be "safe"; the developers are just afraid that doing so de juris would destroy their economic model further)

On the other hand, you have games like WoW or Warhammer Online where death is such a minor inconvenience that it can almost be ignored. Griefing someone in these games is, dare I say, immensely unsatisfying unless they are silly enough to continue to put themselves in a position to be griefed. The low level newbie you've slaughtered over and over again can always (or at least inevitably) escape your attempts to grief him and find somewhere else to go. Plus he's lost maybe minutes of work unless he's sufficiently daft to come back to the same place over and over again.

Even further, in FPS's griefing is ephemeral. Sure you can go on a team killing spree, but the meaning of it - the loss - is absolutely nil. The players just drop out and join a different server. Or, they vote to evict you as most modern games have implemented a democratic solution to dealing with teamkilling. The only power over you that a griefer has in an FPS is if you continue to come back round after round without ever considering that the fight on this server is the exact same as the fight on that other server.

So, really, if a "solution" to griefers is to be found, there is some guidance from the other side of the fence. Hope it helps and see you online.
 

Sanaj

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Mar 20, 2009
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Certain MMOs such as EVE online wouldn't have become as popular if it enforced strict, rigid laws to prevent 'griefing' or exploitation.

http://gamersushi.com/2009/02/06/eve-players-pulls-off-most-badass-grief-job-ever/
Or, if you're feeling lazy here's an excerpt-

Eddy- "the league of spies coerced one of the leaders of Band of Brothers to defect,
essentially handing over the keys to the castle. He handed over ownership of the corporation,
accounts, funds, ships, player lists, even passwords to the forums. From there, all hell broke
loose. The Band of Brothers was disbanded, their in-game accounts emptied of all of their money
(billions of in-game currency) and their territory was released back into the wild. It has resulted in
one of the biggest territory grabs in EVE history."

I find this somewhat odd that this event actually brought in quite a lot more people to play Eve Online.

However, I will admit that 'griefing' generally is just irritating and unnecessary in most online games.
I don't quite understand how players can find enough interest to 'grief' players for any extended period of time.
 

Fineldar

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Jun 8, 2008
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Normally griefing is just being a prick, but sometimes it's funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-rl3RPC_Mw

Yakety Sax just makes it better. Remember kids, always but clipping of PCs in your games!