Ground Zeroes Rape Apologists Baffle Me

[Azure-Supernova]

And when your tape doesn't even move the main storyline (it's an easter egg (EDIT: Fine, side content. I'm glad people latch on to important things.)) and runs for 10 minutes, then you're just indulging, Kojima. Wilful and pointless violence doesn't automatically make your content matured. Also, try not to mark it as a <url=http://i.imgur.com/xCyai9g.png>reward.

See, I didn't see that as a "Congratulations, good job here's a 10 minute audio treat" but more of a "Grats. But we've got you covered from every angle, XOF out bro". Whilst it's put there right alongside actual rewards, it just seems mocking more than anything.

As for defending the content itself? Yeah it's pretty harsh shit and it made me uncomfortable listening to it. But I think that was kind of the point. I wanted to feel glad that Paz got fucked up, because of what she tried to do in Peace Walker, but all throughout all I could think of was how no-one deserves this, not even a psychotic triple agent.

 

[Kanova]

Game of Thrones, the dragon girl is 13 and gets forced married with a barbarian who rapes her every night, and made to ride a horse until her legs bleed. Yet she eventually learns to love it. "What? She's been raped till she enjoyed it?"

 

[lord canti]

Chico, the 13-year-old "assailant" you're going on about, is a P.O.W. just like Paz (EDIT: And is there because of Paz) and the two of them are trying to hold their sanity together in an awful situation

Trying to lure a 13 year old (who was forced onto you just a while ago) into having sex isn't 'holding their sanity together.' If people are traumatized by something, they don't return to it.

And the implications are heavy enough (the sound of clothes ripping, Skullface talking about the taste of women, Paz asking Chico whether they wanted to do it here) to a conclusion the rape happened. I don't see any chance of misinterpretation.

Well, it's not the first or last time that gaming has had a nasty take on rape and its psychological effects. Ever played Silent Hill 2?

...What exactly IS wrong with depicting a victim with Stockholm Syndrome? You do realize that these are people that exist, right?

Angela had an entire story arc in Silent Hill. She wasn't just a throwaway character used for shock value.

I suggest you look up Stockholme Syndrome. Chico wasn't holding Paz hostage.

Actually, you would be surprised the amount of people who have been sexually assaulted or raped become very sexually active.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Seriously, is this really going to be the next big nontroversy the gaming community latches on to? Murder is a pretty damn sensitive topic too, and yet people never seem to have a problem with the mass murdering that almost every game has you do throughout its running time.

It could be worse. The Quiet outfit controversy could be reignited with the release of Phantom Pain. And with the appearance of child soldiers...

Maybe. Although Kojima has said that there is a reason for Quiet's outfit and that the detractors will feel bad about themselves once they learn what that reason is.

Whether that's true or not remains to be seen, but even in this case, it's mostly people who haven't even played the game complaining about the content. So eh.

 

[DEAD34345]

Why not respond to those "rape apologists" in the threads they posted in, then?

Surely if you have an argument to make, or are seeking an explanation (of which many have been given on several threads on this site at least) that would be the sensible option?

Making a new thread to insult the viewpoint just makes it seem like you don't have valid counter-points to make.

 

[carnex]

Do you honestly think that right after the trauma of being gang raped and being forced into statutory rape, the victim would immediately go back to having sex with her 13 year old rapist? What? She's been raped till she enjoyed it? That's not dark and realistic - that's a plot line out of a bad porno.

Actually this is not that rare in real life. I know at least one person who spent three years in relationship with her rapist by her own choice. Human psyche is messed up beyond my ability to understand.

 

[Kopikatsu]

But this is a man whose lofty writing ambitions walk hand in hand with irritable bowel syndrome, or an antagonist who is controlled telepathically by his own implanted arm which harbours the soul of a dead cloned warrior.

If you're going to complain about someone's writing, you should at least know what you're talking about.

Ocelot hypnotized himself into believing that he was Liquid. This was to fool the Patriot AI. Because if Ocelot went rogue, then he would be an unknown element and the Patriots would throw everything they had at Ocelot to destroy him. But if Liquid turned against them, then they would follow the same pattern as last time (sending Solid Snake and attempting to use FOXDIE to resolve the problem), which made them predictable. It also allowed Ocelot to access parts of the Patriot's system that he wouldn't have otherwise been able to, since the AI was convinced that he was actually Liquid.

 

[ARedLetterDay]

But this is a man whose lofty writing ambitions walk hand in hand with irritable bowel syndrome, or an antagonist who is controlled telepathically by his own implanted arm which harbours the soul of a dead cloned warrior.

If you're going to complain about someone's writing, you should at least know what you're talking about.

Ocelot hypnotized himself into believing that he was Liquid. This was to fool the Patriot AI. Because if Ocelot went rogue, then he would be an unknown element and the Patriots would throw everything they had at Ocelot to destroy him. But if Liquid turned against them, then they would follow the same pattern as last time (sending Solid Snake and attempting to use FOXDIE to resolve the problem), which made them predictable. It also allowed Ocelot to access parts of the Patriot's system that he wouldn't have otherwise been able to, since the AI was convinced that he was actually Liquid.

Irritable Bowel Syndrome has a very prominent role in the series, and it's not for poops and giggles (heh), it's the main reason why Johnny was never afflicted by the Sons of the Patriots program -- stretching as far back as the first MGS1, where, maybe, it was used as a gag, but really, it has a reason for being there.

As far as the Liquid Ocelot thing, well, Kopikatsu said it best.

 

[dyre]

Ugh, why are people always getting so outraged over video games? Cool it, guys. They're just pixels.

I take it you don't watch Rhymedown Spectacular, then?

Only on and off. I went and watched the video "taking gaming seriously" which I assume was the one you were talking about.

Honestly, I don't care much for the "games are art, take us seriously" crowd either. But my main issue is that people start getting bent out of shape and morally outraged at works of the imagination. I feel the same way about people who get outraged at Tarantino films and Dan Brown books. It's fiction; if you can't debate it rationally without blowing a gasket then you need to grow up. Maybe I'm just dispassionate, but I've always seen overemotional people as rather childish...

 

[Michael Legault]

3. This is a game where people shamelessly murder others, often for no better reason other than 'I felt like it' or 'It seemed like the cool thing to do at the time'. But no, rape is the problem here. Not the fact that potentially hundreds of people die over the course of the game. OP, I think your priorities are a little fucked.

This is the most beautiful thing about MGS, you are not encouraged to kill people, you always have non-lethal options, I stopped killing after I fought the Sorrow in MGS3, it took me a few tries, and I had gotten carried away with the throat slashing earlier in the game... Go figure I started to feel remorse! I don't even enjoy GTA anymore since I made good friends with a police officer and he told me some stories... Also in MGS games to get Big Boss rank you can't kill anyone, even peacewalker you cannot get S rank in missions if you kill someone. Kojima has even said he doesn't like to reward killing in his games...

 

[Kopikatsu]

3. This is a game where people shamelessly murder others, often for no better reason other than 'I felt like it' or 'It seemed like the cool thing to do at the time'. But no, rape is the problem here. Not the fact that potentially hundreds of people die over the course of the game. OP, I think your priorities are a little fucked.

This is the most beautiful thing about MGS, you are not encouraged to kill people, you always have non-lethal options, I stopped killing after I fought the Sorrow in MGS3, it took me a few tries, and I had gotten carried away with the throat slashing earlier in the game... Go figure I started to feel remorse! I don't even enjoy GTA anymore since I made good friends with a police officer and he told me some stories... Also in MGS games to get Big Boss rank you can't kill anyone, even peacewalker you cannot get S rank in missions if you kill someone. Kojima has even said he doesn't like to reward killing in his games...

Well, I wasn't really including the Snakes in that. More like Volgin killing Granin for funsies (Ocelot asked if he was a traitor, and Volgin kind of shrugged it off and said he never thought Granin was to begin with)). Ocelot himself killed an allied squad to test out a new gun technique. Etc.

The least number of people you can kill to complete MGS1 is 19, I think.

And to be fair, a lot of things that should count as kills don't. Throwing someone off a cliff doesn't depending on the game. There's no 'magic' amount of tranquilizer that will put down everyone of any body type, so you're probably either killing or sending hundreds of soldiers into comas. Shooting a soldier out of a helicopter 400~ feet off the ground with a beanbag gun doesn't count as a kill. So you can 'kill' a fair number of people and still end up with rewards.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Insensitive as it may have been, the subject is addressed with at least a modicum of tact. Skullface is quite clearly reprehensible and I, for one, will be breaking the no-kill rule where he's concerned because ohsweetchrist has he earned a knife in the throat. It's that weird line you always get in MGS games; usually your opponents are at least somewhat relatable but Skullface?

I don't see how. The event in question is portrayed horribly and only serves to add to the rage that finding out he tortured a 13 year old (and a 20 year old because y'know, why bother fact checking your rant? Best just insult a bunch of strawmen rather than consider what your talking about) and actually complicates a certain amount of the morality in Snake's MSF group. Like, why the f*ck Chico is even hanging around with a militia. Not to mention Paz is actually a pretty well developed character and given her f*cking name is a pretty good symbol. And cos I don't wanna add spoilers, I'm going to tag the next bit since it's a)spoilers and b)conjecture

Spoiler

('Peace' was literally blown up by a bomb in her *coughcough*, which would make the whole rape thing seem pretty f*cking dangerous for Skullface, I woulda thought. But hey, he obviously meant rape there, on that 'taste of a woman' jazz. Certainly couldn't have been after he jammed it up her so to speak. Shit, maybe Paz hitting on Chico was a suicide attempt in retrospect. Obviously, this is an apples and oranges kinda deal since even if it wasn't with his penis, he still inflicted grievous sexual injuries on Pacifica but there are other ways to look at it)

So... yeah. It's a horrible event, which you can only uncover through hidden tapes, happening to an important, meaningful character who is very nearly in the title to the preceeding game. It's not classy, but it's not just gratuity.

 

[Michael Legault]

3. This is a game where people shamelessly murder others, often for no better reason other than 'I felt like it' or 'It seemed like the cool thing to do at the time'. But no, rape is the problem here. Not the fact that potentially hundreds of people die over the course of the game. OP, I think your priorities are a little fucked.

This is the most beautiful thing about MGS, you are not encouraged to kill people, you always have non-lethal options, I stopped killing after I fought the Sorrow in MGS3, it took me a few tries, and I had gotten carried away with the throat slashing earlier in the game... Go figure I started to feel remorse! I don't even enjoy GTA anymore since I made good friends with a police officer and he told me some stories... Also in MGS games to get Big Boss rank you can't kill anyone, even peacewalker you cannot get S rank in missions if you kill someone. Kojima has even said he doesn't like to reward killing in his games...

Well, I wasn't really including the Snakes in that. More like Volgin killing Granin for funsies (Ocelot asked if he was a traitor, and Volgin kind of shrugged it off and said he never thought Granin was to begin with)). Ocelot himself killed an allied squad to test out a new gun technique. Etc.

The least number of people you can kill to complete MGS1 is 19, I think.

And to be fair, a lot of things that should count as kills don't. Throwing someone off a cliff doesn't depending on the game. There's no 'magic' amount of tranquilizer that will put down everyone of any body type, so you're probably either killing or sending hundreds of soldiers into comas. Shooting a soldier out of a helicopter 400~ feet off the ground with a beanbag gun doesn't count as a kill. So you can 'kill' a fair number of people and still end up with rewards.

Fair point, I didn't consider scenes with other characters, but I still appreciate that non-lethality is an option and has been for a while, what I love about MGS is that it's not a dude-bro shooter where America can do no wrong. I'm not saying that's what every other game is but MGS has been at it longer than most. Liquid even calls you out for enjoying all the killing, even if you try not to... By the way which game has a beanbag gun? I haven't played ground zeroes yet... Waiting for a ps4... That said I was disappointed that MGR had no non-lethal options, unless I missed it completely. I remember Kojima had promised there would be before he handed it off to platinum games

 

[Bart XB]

Just stopped by to say before this gets even more out of hand Paz is not underage.

http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Paz_Ortega_Andrade

Edited for accuracy. Though you would need a pretty big disclaimer with that character design. How many 20-year-olds wear school uniforms?

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091020135923/metalgear/images/b/bb/Mgspw-paz-cg.jpg

she's a spy and the whole innocent schoolgirl thing is all an act

 

[anthony87]

3. This is a game where people shamelessly murder others, often for no better reason other than 'I felt like it' or 'It seemed like the cool thing to do at the time'. But no, rape is the problem here. Not the fact that potentially hundreds of people die over the course of the game. OP, I think your priorities are a little fucked.

This is the most beautiful thing about MGS, you are not encouraged to kill people, you always have non-lethal options, I stopped killing after I fought the Sorrow in MGS3, it took me a few tries, and I had gotten carried away with the throat slashing earlier in the game... Go figure I started to feel remorse! I don't even enjoy GTA anymore since I made good friends with a police officer and he told me some stories... Also in MGS games to get Big Boss rank you can't kill anyone, even peacewalker you cannot get S rank in missions if you kill someone. Kojima has even said he doesn't like to reward killing in his games...

Well, I wasn't really including the Snakes in that. More like Volgin killing Granin for funsies (Ocelot asked if he was a traitor, and Volgin kind of shrugged it off and said he never thought Granin was to begin with)). Ocelot himself killed an allied squad to test out a new gun technique. Etc.

The least number of people you can kill to complete MGS1 is 19, I think.

And to be fair, a lot of things that should count as kills don't. Throwing someone off a cliff doesn't depending on the game. There's no 'magic' amount of tranquilizer that will put down everyone of any body type, so you're probably either killing or sending hundreds of soldiers into comas. Shooting a soldier out of a helicopter 400~ feet off the ground with a beanbag gun doesn't count as a kill. So you can 'kill' a fair number of people and still end up with rewards.

Fair point, I didn't consider scenes with other characters, but I still appreciate that non-lethality is an option and has been for a while, what I love about MGS is that it's not a dude-bro shooter where America can do no wrong. I'm not saying that's what every other game is but MGS has been at it longer than most. Liquid even calls you out for enjoying all the killing, even if you try not to... By the way which game has a beanbag gun? I haven't played ground zeroes yet... Waiting for a ps4... That said I was disappointed that MGR had no non-lethal options, unless I missed it completely. I remember Kojima had promised there would be before he handed it off to platinum games

The non lethal option is there, it's just not readily apparent. There's an unlockable sword in the game that basically only knocks people out, allowing you to go for no kill runs. Even if you don't have that sword you can cut off enemies legs and arms and they'll vanish whick will count as a "defeat" but not as a "kill".

This applies to the bosses too. Once you're in the Blade Mode part after you deplete their health you can just not cut them or only cut off their legs and it won't count as a kill.