Growing dissatisfaction

[Twilight_guy]

Well, you noted your christian. Faith that things will work out and that God knows what he's doing is a great source of strength. From a more secular prospective, for every incident of someone being hateful and bad, there is another incident of someone doing something. Someone doing something good makes the news less often. Shit happens all the time, and we can either complain about it and wonder why the world sucks, and give up on it all, or can work that much harder to try and improve the world and overcome hate. Improving the world is not a battle you can win, but its a battle you can lose.

 

[Esotera]

Replace gays with blacks and hopefully you'll see what's wrong with your argument. "Separate but equal" does not work, and history has documented this very well.

I'm probably not allowed to buy guns in the UK thanks to a history of mental illness - whilst annoying for me, this is a good type of discrimination, and is there for a reason. If you refused a cake to someone who was black, or in a wheelchair, or blind, then there would be a shitstorm over it. The same should apply if the person buying the cake is gay.

 

[Tyrel Arington]

-snip-

Thank you for a thought out response where your point is defended. Let me start out by saying I fully Gay rights, but I also keep in mind where conflicts come about. Everything I have seen is so black and white where there are shades of grey to be examined. I may not be gay, or of any minority but I have felt slighted before due to various reasons. I want there to be a level of respect on both sides, an enlightened mindset. I feel full well it is only a matter of time until Gay marriage is passed. Also I don't understand why it was ever an issue.

The point about squashing all discrimination only serves to cause discrimination against others. It may slight some beliefs, such as religious faith, which is just as wrong. Our country was founded on freedom, and we have denied and continue to deny many freedoms. I want to see it come about in way where everyone is just as free as the next person.

I do not believe the KKK is alright. I do not support them, but I also do not deny them their right to exist, as it would only be just as discriminatory as other civil rights cases. Religion isn't a shield to be worn to protect us from actions we commit that cause illegal harm. What I am asking is any one group better than another? Can we force one group to comprise their rights to serve the rights an other group.

As for Gay people are biologically gay, I will point out that the same argument can be applied to people of thought because genes determine much of who we are. Rights are self-evident and if we compromise one we serve to imprison everyone. If started small with denied freedom, it grows, until we might have to have an other civil rights movement to equalize things again. It is a pointless cycle where we could just stop think and work the problems out, acknowledge our differences and celebrate them.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Personally, religion is the worst excuse for bigotry and discrimination there is. Remember when you were young and the good old parent talk of "if he jumped off a cliff, would you do it?", that also applies to religion. If a religion stated that disabled people should be refused service because they had the misfortune to be that way it would be fucking sickening, so why is it ok for it to happen to gays? Also, the part of the bible about gays is from a part true Christians shouldn't give a damn about because it's the part of the bible that comes from a horrible, bigoted time in history. Jesus, nor any other bible figures said anything about gays. Also, those cake shop owners should refuse service to people with tattoos, the exact same book of the bible saying gays are bad says tattoos are as bad. Also, that part of the bible only actually says being gay is bad on one frigging day of the year! So unless the gay couple went into the cake shop on that one day, the owners are being bigoted twatbags who are the exact same as the bigoted twatbags in the 50s who refused blacks service. Sorry if this came off as angry, I just really really hate bigots, not religion as a whole for that matter, but people who use it as an excuse to be a bigot.

 

[Overusedname]

-snip-

Thank you for a thought out response where your point is defended. Let me start out by saying I fully Gay rights, but I also keep in mind where conflicts come about. Everything I have seen is so black and white where there are shades of grey to be examined. I may not be gay, or of any minority but I have felt slighted before due to various reasons. I want there to be a level of respect on both sides, an enlightened mindset. I feel full well it is only a matter of time until Gay marriage is passed. Also I don't understand why it was ever an issue.

The point about squashing all discrimination only serves to cause discrimination against others. It may slight some beliefs, such as religious faith, which is just as wrong. Our country was founded on freedom, and we have denied and continue to deny many freedoms. I want to see it come about in way where everyone is just as free as the next person.

I do not believe the KKK is alright. I do not support them, but I also do not deny them their right to exist, as it would only be just as discriminatory as other civil rights cases. Religion isn't a shield to be worn to protect us from actions we commit that cause illegal harm. What I am asking is any one group better than another? Can we force one group to comprise their rights to serve the rights an other group.

As for Gay people are biologically gay, I will point out that the same argument can be applied to people of thought because genes determine much of who we are. Rights are self-evident and if we compromise one we serve to imprison everyone. If started small with denied freedom, it grows, until we might have to have an other civil rights movement to equalize things again. It is a pointless cycle where we could just stop think and work the problems out, acknowledge our differences and celebrate them.

I actually fully understand your point. Rights are always a slippery slope, but an institution that actively encourages hatred is nonetheless dangerous, and should be legally acknowledged as such.

I don't intend to insult your faith or the way you use it. But many people do use it as a shield, claiming that it's alright to discriminate someone because their faith said so. I acknowledge that several external factors change how likely someone is to become/remain religious, but being gay or straight is more akin to being White or Black. It is not something we can control or change without either bleaching our skin or being electrocuted until we convince ourselves we're straight.

If someone doesn't believe gay people should be married...it doesn't really matter. It's not a valid, legal or moral excuse. You still should not be able to refuse a service to them based off sexuality or race or anything like that. You also should not refuse service to a person of a different religious or philosophical belief.

 

[Tyrel Arington]

Personally, religion is the worst excuse for bigotry and discrimination there is. Remember when you were young and the good old parent talk of "if he jumped off a cliff, would you do it?", that also applies to religion. If a religion stated that disabled people should be refused service because they had the misfortune to be that way it would be fucking sickening, so why is it ok for it to happen to gays? Also, the part of the bible about gays is from a part true Christians shouldn't give a damn about because it's the part of the bible that comes from a horrible, bigoted time in history. Jesus, nor any other bible figures said anything about gays. Also, those cake shop owners should refuse service to people with tattoos, the exact same book of the bible saying gays are bad says tattoos are as bad. Also, that part of the bible only actually says being gay is bad on one frigging day of the year! So unless the gay couple went into the cake shop on that one day, the owners are being bigoted twatbags who are the exact same as the bigoted twatbags in the 50s who refused blacks service. Sorry if this came off as angry, I just really really hate bigots, not religion as a whole for that matter, but people who use it as an excuse to be a bigot.

I agree with you on bigots. I just don't want to see more bigots created. Hate is hate, no matter the direction. I am not saying one side is better than the other I am saying they are both equal. They both have rights and I am concerned that is what is going only create inequality on the other side.

 

[Tyrel Arington]

-snip-

-snip-

I actually fully understand your point. Rights are always a slippery slope, but an institution that actively encourages hatred is nonetheless dangerous, and should be legally acknowledged as such.

I don't intend to insult your faith or the way you use it. But many people do use it as a shield, claiming that it's alright to discriminate someone because their faith said so. I acknowledge that several external factors change how likely someone is to become/remain religious, but being gay or straight is more akin to being White or Black. It is not something we can control or change without either bleaching our skin or being electrocuted until we convince ourselves we're straight.

If someone doesn't believe gay people should be married...it doesn't really matter. It's not a valid, legal or moral excuse. You still should not be able to refuse a service to them based off sexuality or race or anything like that. You also should not refuse service to a person of a different religious or philosophical belief.

I have a lot of problems with other people of faith. I have been asked to leave several Churches because of what I believe with gay rights and matters of state. I don't actively go to church anymore because at this point I don't speak Spanish and that is the only church left in town. I am from a fairly small place. Hate is never a correct response. Also I concede the point of the hypothetical shop owner denying service of a type of cake. At least until we can, as a society, view people of difference with the respect they deserve. I think at that point my point becomes moot anyway because if the owner respected the Couple (take note I didn't say Gay couple) they would have spent the afternoon gorging themselves on cake.

 

[Kordie]

The Chick-fil-a thing isn't what I addressed originality. They aren't any different than the gay protesters as they put money up in form of protest. They have a right to do so. I haven't heard of them refusing service to anyone for being gay, I am not saying it couldn't happen but I haven't heard of it. I would also guess by just sheer numbers that there are gay people that work for Chick-fil-a. Assuming that is true, as long as Chick-fil-a doesn't discriminate against serving or employing gay people. They have every right to protest.

What I want to see is a people choosing respect over hate. I am not saying you have to accept someone's lifestyle chooses but be respectful towards it. If we could do that as a society we could move past old arguments. We could also focus on the value of the person. I believe things should be completely equal when it comes to social areas, such as employment and crime. When matters come in conflict with each other we should respectfully acknowledge that and move on.

Couldn't the same argument of respect over hate be applied to the bakery in your example? They do not have to agree with gays being married to sell them a cake. I mean, if this a christian bakery that does not want to support un-christian views, then would they sell a cake to a jewish or atheist person? If they want to be an exclusivly christian store that exclusivly sells to christians I have no problem with that. If they want to start to pick and choose who they sell to than I think they need a protest or two to show them why that is wrong.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Personally, religion is the worst excuse for bigotry and discrimination there is. Remember when you were young and the good old parent talk of "if he jumped off a cliff, would you do it?", that also applies to religion. If a religion stated that disabled people should be refused service because they had the misfortune to be that way it would be fucking sickening, so why is it ok for it to happen to gays? Also, the part of the bible about gays is from a part true Christians shouldn't give a damn about because it's the part of the bible that comes from a horrible, bigoted time in history. Jesus, nor any other bible figures said anything about gays. Also, those cake shop owners should refuse service to people with tattoos, the exact same book of the bible saying gays are bad says tattoos are as bad. Also, that part of the bible only actually says being gay is bad on one frigging day of the year! So unless the gay couple went into the cake shop on that one day, the owners are being bigoted twatbags who are the exact same as the bigoted twatbags in the 50s who refused blacks service. Sorry if this came off as angry, I just really really hate bigots, not religion as a whole for that matter, but people who use it as an excuse to be a bigot.

I agree with you on bigots. I just don't want to see more bigots created. Hate is hate, no matter the direction. I am not saying one side is better than the other I am saying they are both equal. They both have rights and I am concerned that is what is going only create inequality on the other side.

No, I don't agree that bigots like the cake shop owners should be equal. They are actively taking away other peoples freedoms, so they shouldn't be treated as equal to a person who just so happened to be born gay and was just trying to buy a wedding cake. Like I said, if the people had been mentally disabled and the baker refused them because of their religion shot would fly. But because the people were gay there's a debate when there shouldn't be at all! Religion should be something practises in the home and in private places, religious people shouldn't force their views in any other place. Put yourself in the gay men's shoes for a moment, you are about to get married to the man you love and some bastard refused you because of their religion, that they probably didn't follow. It's fine for a Christian to do this, but if say a Muslim person forced every woman to wear tons of clothes (no sure about the name) nobody would have it. Christianity has had it too good for too long, and its gotten to your heads.

 

[Moderated]

>When someone isn't being treated equally I will support them in getting their rights, even if I don't like what they stand for.
>I will not support the rights of groups based on inequality and hate, like the KKK and Nazis.

So what you are saying is, I support people getting their rights, even if I don't like what they stand for, unless I don't like what they stand for, then I don't support them getting their rights.

Anyway, my opinion. I think that discrimination is wrong, and they should have sold the cake. I am against hate groups, and think that their rights should be revoked. Businesses practicing homophobia and racism should be punished with a heavy fine.
And while I agree that they should have rights revoked, I didn't say a sentence above it how I think everyone should get their rights no matter what.

 

[Sehnsucht Engel]

On marriage in general

That wasn't the question though. I can't deal with the ignorance and hatred, so I ignore it as much as I can. It's not going to solve anything, but I'll die one day...

Captcha: Wisdom of inglip
<spoiler=MFW>

 

[kickassfrog]

I honestly don't get why people seem to believe a gay couple can't possibly be allowed the same rights as any other married couple.
But then, I don't get why people would kill other people for believing in a different god to them.
And then I realize that it's really none of my business and I can only hope our species outgrows such prejudices and in 500 years we look back and realize how stupid we were. Like what we do with the crusades.

 

[itsausernamewhatofit]

For example, a Gay couple goes into a cake store for a wedding cake. The said store refuses to sale a wedding cake, but will sale any other type of cake. It goes against their religious choices. The Gay community rallies a protest outside said store. A group from a local gun club reacts by staging a Anti-protest of before mentioned protest.

I'm curious as to why you specified a gun club coming out in protest of gay rights in your hypothetical story. The fact that it was a gun club has no bearing on the story and it only serves to make it seem like you have something against gun owners. If you don't like firearms that's your own business but I'd prefer you didn't begin by stressing your desire to see the situation impartially then stereotype a group.

 

[Hagi]

Doesn't that Gay community also have the right to protest for whatever matters they deem worthy of protest?

I mean they're not going in there and forcing the cake store to sell them wedding cakes at gun-point.

They're just exercising their right to free speech and protest, just like that cake store owner is exercising his rights.

I just don't really see anything wrong with your example.

What exactly do you wish to be changed?

Should protesting be forbidden for matters you personally don't find worthy of protest?

From a legal stand point everyone is correctly exercising their rights. My point I am trying to make is: Is it right for one group to ask an other group to change their core valves. I don't believe that is a question that can be answered for every situation.

Again, exactly the same would go for that gay community.

Their core values involve themselves not being any different from anyone else and deserving to be treated the same.

Yet that shopkeeper treats his gay customers differently than his other customers, expecting them to accept that.

 

[Tyrel Arington]

For example, a Gay couple goes into a cake store for a wedding cake. The said store refuses to sale a wedding cake, but will sale any other type of cake. It goes against their religious choices. The Gay community rallies a protest outside said store. A group from a local gun club reacts by staging a Anti-protest of before mentioned protest.

I'm curious as to why you specified a gun club coming out in protest of gay rights in your hypothetical story. The fact that it was a gun club has no bearing on the story and it only serves to make it seem like you have something against gun owners. If you don't like firearms that's your own business but I'd prefer you didn't begin by stressing your desire to see the situation impartially then stereotype a group.

I didn't stereotype anything. All that was said that a local gun club staged a anti-protest. I love guns, and will protect my rights to own them, but this isn't the aim of this thread. I acknowledge that my statement may have seemed more like a sweeping generalization, I didn't mean it as such. I should have simply stated to begin with a group of like-minded people who don't believe in gay rights.

 

[orangeban]

I have no problem with protesting that cake store, because it chose an asshole policy. Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences.

And more to the point, that store was refusing the couple service because they were gay, they would have sold a hetero couple a wedding cake I presume. I'm not even convinced that would be legal in the UK.

 

[Lugbzurg]

Hate gets thrown around way too much. Just yesterday, I was out and about, looking for places to apply for, and this random couple, whom I've never meant, drove by calling me "gay" for no reason, zipping right by, like the cowards they were. Like this makes them feel proud and powerful, that they just called out a total stranger and then got out of there as quick as they could, without so much as saying a word to my face? Such idiocy...

It's the same with that Justin Bieber kid (or however you spell it). A lot of people hate him because they think he's "unmanly". Well, I really, really, REALLY rather dislike the guy, myself. But, I've seen for myself that the "unmanly" argument just doesn't stand. He's got his own set of separate problems (namely, his snobbish, disrespectful attitude). There are plenty of things out there that may be disagreeable, and people hate them... but for the wrong reasons.

No, I don't agree that bigots like the cake shop owners should be equal. They are actively taking away other peoples freedoms, so they shouldn't be treated as equal to a person who just so happened to be born gay and was just trying to buy a wedding cake. Like I said, if the people had been mentally disabled and the baker refused them because of their religion shot would fly. But because the people were gay there's a debate when there shouldn't be at all! Religion should be something practises in the home and in private places, religious people shouldn't force their views in any other place. Put yourself in the gay men's shoes for a moment, you are about to get married to the man you love and some bastard refused you because of their religion, that they probably didn't follow. It's fine for a Christian to do this, but if say a Muslim person forced every woman to wear tons of clothes (no sure about the name) nobody would have it. Christianity has had it too good for too long, and its gotten to your heads.

The gay couple can go to any cake shop they like. Your argument is invalid.

 

[itsausernamewhatofit]

For example, a Gay couple goes into a cake store for a wedding cake. The said store refuses to sale a wedding cake, but will sale any other type of cake. It goes against their religious choices. The Gay community rallies a protest outside said store. A group from a local gun club reacts by staging a Anti-protest of before mentioned protest.

I'm curious as to why you specified a gun club coming out in protest of gay rights in your hypothetical story. The fact that it was a gun club has no bearing on the story and it only serves to make it seem like you have something against gun owners. If you don't like firearms that's your own business but I'd prefer you didn't begin by stressing your desire to see the situation impartially then stereotype a group.

I didn't stereotype anything. All that was said that a local gun club staged a anti-protest. I love guns, and will protect my rights to own them, but this isn't the aim of this thread. I acknowledge that my statement may have seemed more like a sweeping generalization, I didn't mean it as such. I should have simply stated to begin with a group of like-minded people who don't believe in gay rights.

Alright, I'm glad to hear that. I'm sorry if I seemed a bit harsh, I'm just a bit on edge about people's opinions on gun owners after the seemingly endless series of gun control threads around here lately.

 

[Leadfinger]

Lately, I have been growing disillusioned with the world in general. I choose to be informed as well as I can, see both sides of any argument. A large part of this is due to some internet forums, articles but isn't limited to it.

I try rather hard to start with an unbiased view, much like your supposed to when selected for Jury Duty. I view things from a rational point of view.

For example, a Gay couple goes into a cake store for a wedding cake. The said store refuses to sale a wedding cake, but will sale any other type of cake. It goes against their religious choices. The Gay community rallies a protest outside said store. A group from a local gun club reacts by staging a Anti-protest of before mentioned protest.

What is making me sick here is the cycle of hate. I feel that the cake store respected Gay consumers by not blanket refusing service to them, while still maintaining their moral choices. The Gay community could have reacted better here by respecting the owner's moral freedom by simply going somewhere else. I understand the need to protect one's rights, but is a cake shop really the place to do it? Did the shop deny the gay couple any of their freedoms? When I think of the word tolerance used in these situations I feel it is far to one sided. I choose to view it as a two way street. I respect your right to choose your pursuit of happiness, I ask you respect mine as well. When in conflict, don't make me compromise my moral choice, because you feel it slighted yours.

With this mindset, my dissatisfaction with the world in general has been increasing exponentially. I am a white, heterosexual male. I am also Christian, born and raised. I believe in separation of "Church and State" and they should never mix. I am closer to Conservative republican than any other current political mindset. I believe in Classical liberalism. I hold rights to be self evident and everyone is an equal. When someone isn't being treated equally I will support them in getting their rights, even if I don't like what they stand for. I believe in the Constitution and everything the Bill of Rights means.

I know I may sound, in the strictest sense of the word, hypocritical here in that I will not support the rights of groups based on inequality and hate, like the KKK and Nazis.

My question is how to find the strength to deal with a cycle of ignorance and hate?

Interesting captcha: Cookie Cutter

The cake store respected the gay customers by refusing them service? It's ridiculous. And how does it violate the store owners morality to make a wedding cake for gay customers? The cycle of hate was started by the bigoted cake store owner.