Hack Kinect, Win Money

[Xanthious]

Oh please, PLEASE, explain to me how taking apart a piece of hardware you legally bought and using it for an unintended puprose is illegal? It says nothing about them using M$ software. It would be no different than taking my refrigerator apart and using it as a place to set plants. Somehow I doubt Whirlpool will get butthurt about it.

The way this reads is that this company wants to use the Kinect camera with different perfectly legal software. M$ can't do a damn thing about that. There is nothing illegal about buying a Kinect and using the camera portion for something other than playing Xbox games.

Because the Kinect hardware is patented, and reverse-engineering and distributing patented hardware has been illegal for centuries.

They don't care if you manage to plug it into a Mac. They do care, however, if you post the specs and how it works on the internet for all to see.

But that is in no way illegal. People post specs and technical information for all kinds of patented things. Hell there are sites out there that SELL those exact things for things like appliances, computers, cars, etc. Patenting something only protects you from having people make and sell the same thing. By your logic those books that are sold at the auto parts store that document a tear down and rebuild of any number of make and model cars would be illegal. There is bugger all M$ can do about this except impotent bitching. Now if they were using M$ software or making their own cameras based on Kinect specs that would be a different story. . .

 

[Staskala]

For all the possibilities they mention they think they can get out of Xbox Kinect You'd think 2.... heck $10,000.00 would be to little for the keys(ability to repeat the process of open sourcing)a Kinect device from a store.

It's a company specialising in hobby engineering, not in "real" commercial or scientific use. I highly doubt they make that much money to pay more.
Besides, you can bet your ass that actual robotics and aerospace companies and research institutes have far, far more advanced stuff than the kinect lying around.

That's why I don't think it's a big deal, it's just a bunch of DIY-ers goofing around, nothing more.

 

[CaptainCrunch]

It's important to note that the hack they're looking for is primarily a driver for the hardware. It's along the same lines as using a Wii Remote or standard 360 controller on your computer.

What Microsoft doesn't seem to understand is that people are going to do this to any hardware they come up with, and that it's not always going to be for nefarious purposes. In fact, the hobbyist community will probably come up with some interesting things that utilize Kinect hardware that will in turn boost sales for Microsoft.

 

[SilentHunter7]

But that is in no way illegal. People post specs and technical information for all kinds of patented things. Hell there are sites out there that SELL those exact things for things like appliances, computers, cars, etc. Patenting something only protects you from having people make and sell the same thing. By your logic those books that are sold at the auto parts store that document a tear down and rebuild of any number of make and model cars would be illegal. There is bugger all M$ can do about this except impotent bitching. Now if they were using M$ software or making their own cameras based on Kinect specs that would be a different story. . .

But they ARE using MS software. Why do you think they're trying to hack it? Yeah, they may rewrite it so that it'll work with a PC, rather than an Xbox, but it's still Microsoft's code they're going to be using.

Unless someone somehow manages to write a driver from scratch, which if they could, they would've already done it with an array of web-cams.

 

[Xanthious]

But that is in no way illegal. People post specs and technical information for all kinds of patented things. Hell there are sites out there that SELL those exact things for things like appliances, computers, cars, etc. Patenting something only protects you from having people make and sell the same thing. By your logic those books that are sold at the auto parts store that document a tear down and rebuild of any number of make and model cars would be illegal. There is bugger all M$ can do about this except impotent bitching. Now if they were using M$ software or making their own cameras based on Kinect specs that would be a different story. . .

But they ARE using MS software. Why do you think they're trying to hack it? Yeah, they may rewrite it so that it'll work with a PC, rather than an Xbox, but it's still Microsoft's code they're going to be using.

Unless someone somehow manages to write a driver from scratch, which if they could, they would've already done it with an array of web-cams.

Funny I don't see that being said anywhere. All I see is this company wants someone to write their own open source application that makes use of the Kinect camera. The camera just sends output about depth and whatnot. What they want is a program that will read and make use of that output. Just because a program can make use of the output coming from the camera doesn't mean it's breaking any laws.

 

[Shycte]

I think you should take time and read that long text that everyone forces you to accept. The terms of use you know?

So your saying that there are terms of use to buy a Kinect camera? Are they making the cashiers get your signature now when you check out at the local Walmart? Somehow I doubt that. You agree to absolutely nothing when you buy a Kinect camera. But by all means, if you can show me something I might have missed feel free.

Well, not when you but it. But if you are going to use it...

Just because you own it, it doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with that technology.

 

[SpecklePattern]

this video sums it all up. lawsuit time is upon us.

Oh please, PLEASE, explain to me how taking apart a piece of hardware you legally bought and using it for an unintended puprose is illegal? It says nothing about them using M$ software. It would be no different than taking my refrigerator apart and using it as a place to set plants. Somehow I doubt Whirlpool will get butthurt about it.

The way this reads is that this company wants to use the Kinect camera with different perfectly legal software. M$ can't do a damn thing about that. There is nothing illegal about buying a Kinect and using the camera portion for something other than playing Xbox games.

It is so easy to make that illegal. Just "read instructions before use" and in instructions "any other use than... is forbidden". Bam. I think many companies have these things in instructions. Usually though the unintentional use is just to protect the company. So rarely illegal but still the company can sue for missuse

 

[Xanthious]

I think you should take time and read that long text that everyone forces you to accept. The terms of use you know?

So your saying that there are terms of use to buy a Kinect camera? Are they making the cashiers get your signature now when you check out at the local Walmart? Somehow I doubt that. You agree to absolutely nothing when you buy a Kinect camera. But by all means, if you can show me something I might have missed feel free.

Well, not when you but it. But if you are going to use it...

Just because you own it, it doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with that technology.

Actually, unless I'm breaking any laws owning it means exactly that I can sue it however I want. Using it in a way that M$ doesn't want me to doesn't constitute breaking a law.

It is so easy to make that illegal. Just "read instructions before use" and in instructions "any other use than... is forbidden". Bam. I think many companies have these things in instructions. Usually though the unintentional use is just to protect the company. So rarely illegal but still the company can sue for missuse

So by your logic if they put a line in the instructions that I had could only use the device every other Wednesday playing it on a Saturday would be grounds for legal action? What if they decided that they wanted to put a line in there that I also forfeited all my wordly possessions to them as well? By your logic they could sue me if I didn't hand over all my stuff. Even if what you were saying was anything close to reality, which it isn't, they would have no proof of consent.

Manufacturers are not allowed to tell you how you can and can not use hardware. They are allowed to make it as big a pain in the ass to use it unintentionally as they want, that is their choice to do so, but they have no actual say what you can and can not do with it once you legally purchase it.

 

[SilentHunter7]

Funny I don't see that being said anywhere. All I see is this company wants someone to write their own open source application that makes use of the Kinect camera. The camera just sends output about depth and whatnot. What they want is a program that will read and make use of that output. Just because a program can make use of the output coming from the camera doesn't mean it's breaking any laws.

You sure it sends output about depth, and it's not the software that does that?

If they write their own code that utilizes just the output of the camera, than you're right, there's nothing wrong. But I don't think the calculations are done on the camera. Otherwise, we wouldn't be reading about how much (or how little) processor time Kinect uses.

And if it IS done with the Xbox processor, reverse engineering the drivers, and using and distributing any of that code, or even original code based around the same premise of the patented code is HIGHLY illegal.

EDIT:
Actually, a good friend just informed me that Article 6 of the Computer Programs Directive allows for the decompilation of source code to ensure interoperability with other systems and programs, provided it isn't used for anything that infringes the owner's copyrights. So you can RE the drivers, so long as you don't use the results of your Reverse Engineering to do anything else but make the Kinect camera work with other systems. So if anyone finds a way to make the drivers work with a web-cam, then it goes from being legally grey, straight into being totally illegal.

 

[sanguinator]

well i didnt think hacking could be used for a good cause.

 

[esperandote]

You won! You're arrested!

If microsoft took the right side and allow people to use kinect for other stuff they could actually sell lots of units for other pourpuses.

 

[RollForInitiative]

Is the reverse engineering of this product even legal?

 

[Wicky_42]

Your right, but that application is one that is being designed by someone else to work with the Kinect camera. Just like Logitech has no say over what programs I use my mouse with MS has no say over what programs or applications the Kinect camera is used with. They would like to think they do but they are wrong.

Fix'd again, you're having trouble with that capital S there...

Being designed by someone else by using Microsofts coding... the whole point of hacking the device.

It's morally questionable at best, but whatever I can see Kinect becoming incredibly useful in medical science so it's all good and well.

Go back and read your own quote - they're writing their own code, that's part of the whole point. This is the same hacking as using Wii-motes to make a touch-screen interface or head tracking tool. There is no 'moral question' here, just people and hardware, along with Microsoft's crying and your unthinking bowing to corporation demands.

 

[the_pleasure_is_mine]

Go back and read your own quote - they're writing their own code, that's part of the whole point. This is the same hacking as using Wii-motes to make a touch-screen interface or head tracking tool. There is no 'moral question' here, just people and hardware, along with Microsoft's crying and your unthinking bowing to corporation demands.

I'm too sleepy to be bothered to formulate an argument... just read up the thread there somewhere ^^ Some people explained the laws, complications, moral implications and what crosses the line or not a hell of a lot better than I could.

 

[Dioxide20]

FIRST ROBOTICS FTW!!!

This would definitely be something that could be placed on a robot. It might not be great for games, but Kinect will surely be great for other applications.

 

[Wicky_42]

Go back and read your own quote - they're writing their own code, that's part of the whole point. This is the same hacking as using Wii-motes to make a touch-screen interface or head tracking tool. There is no 'moral question' here, just people and hardware, along with Microsoft's crying and your unthinking bowing to corporation demands.

I'm too sleepy to be bothered to formulate an argument... just read up the thread there somewhere ^^ Some people explained the laws, complications, moral implications and what crosses the line or not a hell of a lot better than I could.

Nah, SilentHunter7 was bitching about it, but even he eventually realised he was wrong - you can re-appropriate hardware just fine, and the only software involved is the custom open-source software that was very clearly referred to in the article and several comments. You even quoted that part once, seemingly to reinforce you're 'it's illegal' attitude ?.?

There's only an issue if you start trying to make and distribute patented hardware, which has nothing to do with what this is all about.

 

[the_pleasure_is_mine]

Nah, SilentHunter7 was bitching about it, but even he eventually realised he was wrong - you can re-appropriate hardware just fine, and the only software involved is the custom open-source software that was very clearly referred to in the article and several comments. You even quoted that part once, seemingly to reinforce you're 'it's illegal' attitude ?.?

There's only an issue if you start trying to make and distribute patented hardware, which has nothing to do with what this is all about.

Well I gave up in the post you quoted...

The whole I want this to happen because it'll do more good than bad.

Basically they're ripping apart Microsofts programming so they can rewrite it. Which in my opinion is morally questionable. Not like it matters it's probably already been cracked...

I can't be bothered to argue a point I gave up hours ago so do what you will, I'm going to go find something more interesting elsewhere.

 

[Atmos Duality]

That isn't illegal either. They said nothing about making or selling a Kinect camera of their own. Hell if I want to take apart my keyboard and hook it up to control say my car I could. It would be no different than what these people are looking to do. They want to use the Kinect camera, camera NOT software, for other purposes than playing games. As long as they pay for the cameras however the hell they choose to use them is no business of M$.

If they have a patent for the tech involved, then yes. It is completely illegal.
Patents give the creator exclusive rights to create, license and market their IP/Product for a set amount of time. Reverse-Engineering undermines this directly, and therefore, it is deemed illegal.

Intent =/= activity. Even if someone were using the Kinect to (magically) cure cancer, it would still be illegal.

First off show me where they said anything about selling it. They want someone to make them software that will work with the Kinect camera. To make that software these people need to learn what makes the Kinect tick. M$ is free to make that as hard as possible to figure out but figuring it out illegal in the least bit. You don't agree to a damn thing when you buy a Kinect camera so it's not like there is a EULA in place. M$ can't say a damn thing about how you use it.

It sounds like this hacker wants to adapt the tech for open-source projects, of which there are endless potential applications. By releasing those as open-source, they are in fact cutting into many potential future markets and adaptations of Kinect effectively on M$'s dime.

Whether M$ wants to invest in those markets or not has yet to be determined, but it's easy to see why they would be pissy about this.