When you compare the story of the Halo Reach game with the novel Halo: the fall of reach it turns out many events contradict eachother.
What's your take on this?
What's your take on this?
Halo Reach; does it kill the novel?
- Thread starter Trillovinum
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Sigh. I'm sure it does, having not read the book, but still I'd like to point out that the books in the Halo universe are NOT CANON.
The games = canon for Halo, the books do not.
The games = canon for Halo, the books do not.
But the problem is that they use some things from the books but not others. They selectively pick and choose from the books what is canon and what is not. This causes a bit of a clusterfuck because when some things are canon and some not from the same material, it becomes hard to keep track of it. At least George Lucas had the sense to avoid the book canon altogether when making the prequels. As bad as those movies were, that's the way you do it.No_Remainders said:
personally I just feel like halsey's journal was just an excuse by bungie to justify their story writing. The whole thing just feels rushed and very 'last minute'.HG131 said:
From Halopedia, this explains it perfectly in the order of "Superior Canon"believer258 said:
Often times, one source of canon may say something different than other sources. There are many reasons why this may be so; ranging from a typo to a line taken out of context. Therefore, a policy of "superior canon" is in act to make sure that the content of Halopedia reflects the most accurate canon of the Halo universe. Thus, a "ladder" of canon sources exists, with the sources higher on the ladder having "superior canon" which is considered more "official" than the sources below them.
The concept of superior canon is as follows:
Current Bungie Employees are the highest source of Canon. They design, authorize, and sanction every detail about Halo that is revealed to the public. Their statements take the highest authority among Halo canon because, obviously, they created it all.
Halo Games are, with certain exceptions, the most elaborate of the Halo works and, as they come directly from the producers of Bungie, they are the largest creations of the Halo universe. The information in the video games was produced by Bungie employees directly. This gives them the most credit as canon sources.
Halo Literature, Soundtracks, and Other Media are below the games as sources of canon for various reasons. Some of this media is presented by Bungie Affiliates and thus not direct canon from the studio, and some is for promotional purposes or Halo ideas that were released in incomplete development. Bungie Studios has given great creative license to its affiliates as long as their material falls within basic guidelines, and may not be what Bungie itself wanted for the Halo universe.
Bungie Affiliates are just below Bungie employees. This group includes companies and people who work on Halo products but are not part of Bungie studios. This group includes 4orty2wo Entertainment employees, Joyride Studios employees, and Halo novelists like Eric Nylund and William C. Dietz.
*Announcement Trailers are usually considered not to be canon, as details in an announcement trailer are usually a very early draft of the storyline, and do not necessarily contain content that made it into the final game. Thus, Trailers are considered to be canon until the official game is released.
Halopedia Canon The lowest form of Canon, Halopedia Canon is the result of heated debate among the Halopedia community to arrive at conclusion and decision on said piece of Halo Universe. Halopedia Canon is trumped by all other higher Canon unless it is determined that a mistake by Bungie has been made. Some examples of "mistakes" can be found here.
The concept of superior canon is as follows:
Current Bungie Employees are the highest source of Canon. They design, authorize, and sanction every detail about Halo that is revealed to the public. Their statements take the highest authority among Halo canon because, obviously, they created it all.
Halo Games are, with certain exceptions, the most elaborate of the Halo works and, as they come directly from the producers of Bungie, they are the largest creations of the Halo universe. The information in the video games was produced by Bungie employees directly. This gives them the most credit as canon sources.
Halo Literature, Soundtracks, and Other Media are below the games as sources of canon for various reasons. Some of this media is presented by Bungie Affiliates and thus not direct canon from the studio, and some is for promotional purposes or Halo ideas that were released in incomplete development. Bungie Studios has given great creative license to its affiliates as long as their material falls within basic guidelines, and may not be what Bungie itself wanted for the Halo universe.
Bungie Affiliates are just below Bungie employees. This group includes companies and people who work on Halo products but are not part of Bungie studios. This group includes 4orty2wo Entertainment employees, Joyride Studios employees, and Halo novelists like Eric Nylund and William C. Dietz.
*Announcement Trailers are usually considered not to be canon, as details in an announcement trailer are usually a very early draft of the storyline, and do not necessarily contain content that made it into the final game. Thus, Trailers are considered to be canon until the official game is released.
Halopedia Canon The lowest form of Canon, Halopedia Canon is the result of heated debate among the Halopedia community to arrive at conclusion and decision on said piece of Halo Universe. Halopedia Canon is trumped by all other higher Canon unless it is determined that a mistake by Bungie has been made. Some examples of "mistakes" can be found here.
Note how the literature comes after the games in the order of Halo canon.
I'm a big Halo fan and even I admit that the game contradicts the novel, but the games are taken as canon over the books every time. Besides, the Halo fans at Bungie.net are too busy arguing whether or not its John-117 in the Cryo-tube easter egg or not to argue over the plot (Trust me, I wish I was kidding when I said that.)believer258 said:
Also, according to rumors, Bungie plans to have Eric Nylund rewrite the Fall of Reach Novel so they both correspond with one another.
To me, its two different takes on the same story. Look at it like its all just one big historic moment and the games and books are recalling the events. Many different theories as too how everything happened will form. You just have to pick the one or come up with on that works for you... I guess.
It absolutely destroys the novel. I actually went back and read the book to get ready for Reach, but I ended up screaming at the game on a regular basis for being so non-canon.
Compared to the book, the game didn't make a whole lot of sense. The Reach campaign was by far the worst in Halo
I'm not a fanboy, first of all, I'd just like to throw that out there thanks.believer258 said:
And I'm hardly defending it, I'm just making a statement, I'll agree that changing what once was fact is a bad idea as a storytelling mechanic, I'm just saying that when it does come to Halo, that's how things work.
It's because the story was flimsy as shit to begin with.
I liked both. The book was well written and the game was well made. Inconsistencies are going to be prevalent in the two because, well, it's two completely different medias. If you read some song lyrics from many mainstream hits as a book or poem or short story, it sometimes means something different from the song. Perspective is what's important. On a personal note, I liked the book story better, but that was a story made by someone that wasn't part of the game itself. And don't say that The Flood was exactly like the game. It was made after the game and framed around it. Fall of Reach was made a long time before Halo: Reach. I don't care which is real cannon or which is the keystone or turning point or any of that. I liked one better. Personal opinion. But both are great and amazing as they are. If you look at them as complements rather than competitions then it works so long as you use reason to explain the differences. Reach got fucked. Both stories told that. Thats what truly matters IMHO.
while i love the book, quite possibly my favorite book ever (i've read it 4 times already), i will say it contradicts quite a few times with the game, however i dont think bungie was intending to go exactly from the book from the start, so i dont know why there is so much arguing over it..
I liked both. The book was well written and the game was well made. Inconsistencies are going to be prevalent in the two because, well, it's two completely different media formats. If you read some song lyrics from many mainstream hits as a book or poem or short story, it sometimes means something different from the song. Perspective is what's important. On a personal note, I liked the book story better, but that was a story made by someone that wasn't part of the game itself. And don't say that The Flood was exactly like the game. It was made after the game and framed around it. Fall of Reach was made a long time before Halo: Reach. I don't care which is real cannon or which is the keystone or turning point or any of that. I liked one better. Personal opinion. But both are great and amazing as they are. If you look at them as complements rather than competitions then it works so long as you use reason to explain the differences. Reach got fucked. Both stories told that. Thats what truly matters IMHO.
Well that's totally pointless. I think the book's story is way better and Bungie should've used Eric Nylunds storyline as they licensed it out to him..gigastrike said:
Okay, normally I am loathe to do an '/thread' on threads, but right now I have three items that anyone can get, plus a web resource, that will definitively prove that regardless of fanboyism, the canon of Halo and the events surrounding Reach's fall are indeed not messed up, and do fit perfectly together. These are:
-The actual game, Halo: Reach.
- The book, The Fall Of Reach.
- The accompaniment to the game, Doctor Halsey's Journal (and yes, anyone can get that, it's been copied and put online by people and the details are widespread on the internet if you just Google it...).
Everything is explained within the canon, and the locations and knowledge of all important characters is reconciled by these three together. As for the timeline? I direct you to the web resource.
- A timeline of the Fall of Reach, backed up by Word of God (i.e. top Bungie and Microsoft executives and developers).
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Fall_of_Reach#Timeline
This explains everything, and shows exactly how it all fits together. I will answer here the three biggest questions that anyone usually has about the canonicity, to show how it makes sense.
1. Doctor Halsey had no idea that the Spartan-IIIs existed, yet she knew about NOBLE Team during the planet's fall.
Well, actually, she had already suspected the existence of a similar program to the ORION Project, but not the S-III project that Ackerson was doing. She never, EVER, mentions 'SPARTAN-III' during the game, and it's been classed as fact all along that she'd already had suspicions for a long time about a similar project, as stated with her finding the S-II and King Under The Mountain files in the book The Fall Of Reach, as well as the suspicions stated in her personal journal. She was still surprised, therefore, in Ghosts of Onyx, when she met Spartan-IIIs, because she didn't realise the full truth until then. It all fits with what we see in the game, and the established canon. No discrepancies whatsoever. Also, note that the armour of the Spartan-IIIs she later meets is very different to the NOBLE Team armour, which would also cause surprise later on...
2. The Pillar Of Autumn had already left Reach's system, heading to the first Halo, when the Covenant started to glass the planet, so how can it still be on Reach in dry dock during the game?
Again, another easy one. If you read the book The Fall Of Reach carefully, you'll realise that there is a decent amount of time where the actions of the Pillar Of Autumn during the space battle above Reach are not accounted for. This is just after John and Linda are sent to the Circumference, and the other Spartan-IIs are sent to the surface to defend the MAC Generators. During that time, when there are no Spartan-IIs on board, it can be inferred, and indeed was confirmed by Word of God, that the Pillar of Autumn received orders to return to dry dock on Reach to receive the partial Cortana copy, as stated in the game and Halsey's journal, something that was otherwise unknown to anyone but Halsey and (NOBLE Team) before then. It also explains why the Autumn left Reach without said copy, before getting it anyway when it returned to help in the space battle. After the events of the game, specifically the level 'The Package', the Autumn got the copy back and returned to the rendezvous point in orbit to await John and Linda's return from the Circumference.
Also, people claim that this isn't true because a Spartan-II is seen in cryo onboard the Autumn in that level of Halo: Reach, in an Easter Egg. Just for the record, EASTER EGGS ARE NOT CANON! That has been established ever since the Egg in the first game after the credits on Legendary, with Johnson and an Elite hugging, so this little tidbit can be disregarded. Again, the canon is intact and preserved, and the timeline is kept intact.
3. How are Covenant on Reach in July if the Autumn doesn't leave and the main attack doesn't begin until mid-late August?
Again, easy. It's explained in Halsey's Journal, and in the game, that the force on Reach near the start are in fact an advance force that made it to Reach by stealth. Indeed, that's the entire point of the first five missions of the game, fully half the Campaign, where you are trying to destroy the main methods of stealth infiltration on Reach and destroy the Covenant ships already present. The full invasion force doesn't arrive until straight afterwards, which is already August, as stated in the Journal, the game, and as was already established in the original book. The dates do match, check yourself if you don't believe me. At this point, the Pillar of Autumn gets the order to return to Reach orbit and help in the battle, thus setting the stage for the second half of the game and the end of the novel. As for the fact that such a stealth invasion is never mentioned in the original novel, it can be inferred that the attack was, until the invasion of New Alexandria (which happened only after the main attack and the Autumn's recall), kept hidden to avoid panic. The attack only occurred in certain areas, specifically near Visegrad (i.e. ONI's Sword Base) and the associated Forerunner installation, so was easily covered up until the decloaking of the Covenant stealth ship in orbit around Reach. This also explains why the Spartan-IIs weren't aware of the attack until later, and we also know that they already had another mission to follow which was important enough that it overrided the Winter Contingency, until the full recall after the full-scale invasion.
Again, canon intact, timeline intact. No discrepancies whatsoever.
By the way, if anyone wants to argue with me, then feel free to let me know your thoughts. I'll enjoy using established canon and logic to dismantle your theories piece by piece
. And with that I think I can safely say...
[HEADING=1][/thread][/HEADING]
EDIT: Okay, I've had a look at some other posts here and can actually make one allowance regarding the timeline. The original novel suggests that the entire invasion and fall of Reach happened within a day or two. The space battle itself doesn't seem to match either, given it seems to only last a few hours in the novel. However, later novels, and the games, suggest that despite most ships being able to travel a few thousand kilometres per minute, space battles are shown to be longer, protracted affairs, even using gravity slingshot tactics and whatnot. Plus, ground battles would often take several days, if not weeks. Therefore, I am prepared to accept that the timeline given in the original book is wrong for that battle. This means it's more in line with later books (including later books by the same author), and puts it more in line with the game's continuity. Also, it means there is indeed a greater frame of time in which the Piller of Autumn could have made it to dry dock on Reach's surface while John and Linda were on board the Circumference, while still allowing it time to take down a Covenant stealth ship with it's slingshot approach around Reach.
Also note that this isn't the first time timelines have been in discrepancy in the books. There were massive typos in the first print run, for example, of Ghosts of Onyx, which suggested that the events of the main games were in 2542, ten years too early. Such mistakes have usually been noted by Bungie and accepted as typos, and rectified in later editions, and I trust that the timeline discrepancies in the book The Fall Of Reach will indeed be sorted out in later editions, or in the rumoured rewrite, to bring the book more in line with the newer canon established in the game and Halsey's Journal.
-The actual game, Halo: Reach.
- The book, The Fall Of Reach.
- The accompaniment to the game, Doctor Halsey's Journal (and yes, anyone can get that, it's been copied and put online by people and the details are widespread on the internet if you just Google it...).
Everything is explained within the canon, and the locations and knowledge of all important characters is reconciled by these three together. As for the timeline? I direct you to the web resource.
- A timeline of the Fall of Reach, backed up by Word of God (i.e. top Bungie and Microsoft executives and developers).
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Fall_of_Reach#Timeline
This explains everything, and shows exactly how it all fits together. I will answer here the three biggest questions that anyone usually has about the canonicity, to show how it makes sense.
1. Doctor Halsey had no idea that the Spartan-IIIs existed, yet she knew about NOBLE Team during the planet's fall.
Well, actually, she had already suspected the existence of a similar program to the ORION Project, but not the S-III project that Ackerson was doing. She never, EVER, mentions 'SPARTAN-III' during the game, and it's been classed as fact all along that she'd already had suspicions for a long time about a similar project, as stated with her finding the S-II and King Under The Mountain files in the book The Fall Of Reach, as well as the suspicions stated in her personal journal. She was still surprised, therefore, in Ghosts of Onyx, when she met Spartan-IIIs, because she didn't realise the full truth until then. It all fits with what we see in the game, and the established canon. No discrepancies whatsoever. Also, note that the armour of the Spartan-IIIs she later meets is very different to the NOBLE Team armour, which would also cause surprise later on...
2. The Pillar Of Autumn had already left Reach's system, heading to the first Halo, when the Covenant started to glass the planet, so how can it still be on Reach in dry dock during the game?
Again, another easy one. If you read the book The Fall Of Reach carefully, you'll realise that there is a decent amount of time where the actions of the Pillar Of Autumn during the space battle above Reach are not accounted for. This is just after John and Linda are sent to the Circumference, and the other Spartan-IIs are sent to the surface to defend the MAC Generators. During that time, when there are no Spartan-IIs on board, it can be inferred, and indeed was confirmed by Word of God, that the Pillar of Autumn received orders to return to dry dock on Reach to receive the partial Cortana copy, as stated in the game and Halsey's journal, something that was otherwise unknown to anyone but Halsey and (NOBLE Team) before then. It also explains why the Autumn left Reach without said copy, before getting it anyway when it returned to help in the space battle. After the events of the game, specifically the level 'The Package', the Autumn got the copy back and returned to the rendezvous point in orbit to await John and Linda's return from the Circumference.
Also, people claim that this isn't true because a Spartan-II is seen in cryo onboard the Autumn in that level of Halo: Reach, in an Easter Egg. Just for the record, EASTER EGGS ARE NOT CANON! That has been established ever since the Egg in the first game after the credits on Legendary, with Johnson and an Elite hugging, so this little tidbit can be disregarded. Again, the canon is intact and preserved, and the timeline is kept intact.
3. How are Covenant on Reach in July if the Autumn doesn't leave and the main attack doesn't begin until mid-late August?
Again, easy. It's explained in Halsey's Journal, and in the game, that the force on Reach near the start are in fact an advance force that made it to Reach by stealth. Indeed, that's the entire point of the first five missions of the game, fully half the Campaign, where you are trying to destroy the main methods of stealth infiltration on Reach and destroy the Covenant ships already present. The full invasion force doesn't arrive until straight afterwards, which is already August, as stated in the Journal, the game, and as was already established in the original book. The dates do match, check yourself if you don't believe me. At this point, the Pillar of Autumn gets the order to return to Reach orbit and help in the battle, thus setting the stage for the second half of the game and the end of the novel. As for the fact that such a stealth invasion is never mentioned in the original novel, it can be inferred that the attack was, until the invasion of New Alexandria (which happened only after the main attack and the Autumn's recall), kept hidden to avoid panic. The attack only occurred in certain areas, specifically near Visegrad (i.e. ONI's Sword Base) and the associated Forerunner installation, so was easily covered up until the decloaking of the Covenant stealth ship in orbit around Reach. This also explains why the Spartan-IIs weren't aware of the attack until later, and we also know that they already had another mission to follow which was important enough that it overrided the Winter Contingency, until the full recall after the full-scale invasion.
Again, canon intact, timeline intact. No discrepancies whatsoever.
By the way, if anyone wants to argue with me, then feel free to let me know your thoughts. I'll enjoy using established canon and logic to dismantle your theories piece by piece
. And with that I think I can safely say...[HEADING=1][/thread][/HEADING]
EDIT: Okay, I've had a look at some other posts here and can actually make one allowance regarding the timeline. The original novel suggests that the entire invasion and fall of Reach happened within a day or two. The space battle itself doesn't seem to match either, given it seems to only last a few hours in the novel. However, later novels, and the games, suggest that despite most ships being able to travel a few thousand kilometres per minute, space battles are shown to be longer, protracted affairs, even using gravity slingshot tactics and whatnot. Plus, ground battles would often take several days, if not weeks. Therefore, I am prepared to accept that the timeline given in the original book is wrong for that battle. This means it's more in line with later books (including later books by the same author), and puts it more in line with the game's continuity. Also, it means there is indeed a greater frame of time in which the Piller of Autumn could have made it to dry dock on Reach's surface while John and Linda were on board the Circumference, while still allowing it time to take down a Covenant stealth ship with it's slingshot approach around Reach.
Also note that this isn't the first time timelines have been in discrepancy in the books. There were massive typos in the first print run, for example, of Ghosts of Onyx, which suggested that the events of the main games were in 2542, ten years too early. Such mistakes have usually been noted by Bungie and accepted as typos, and rectified in later editions, and I trust that the timeline discrepancies in the book The Fall Of Reach will indeed be sorted out in later editions, or in the rumoured rewrite, to bring the book more in line with the newer canon established in the game and Halsey's Journal.
Bungie's take on this is that whatever was released most recently becomes the new official canon. Anywhere that the game contradicts the book, the game is the accepted version of events.
I stick by what Bungie have explicitly told fans to do. They don't even try and pretend that the continuity is some sacred thing they should never try and adapt.
I stick by what Bungie have explicitly told fans to do. They don't even try and pretend that the continuity is some sacred thing they should never try and adapt.
Halo Reach has a crappy story anyway, I haven't read the books but any literature must be more properly written than...that
Sheepy Sheep said:
Its kinda difficult to find a way to link both Eric Nylund's Fall of reach with Halo: Reach's characters. The Dawn stayed in orbit and the purpose of the game was to set up the next 4 Halo games. The book was good and its still being told through the eyes of Master Chief. If you have faith in Nylund's writing abilities, then it will turn out alright.
That all said, I'd like to state againt that this is a RUMOR I read on Wikipedia.