Han Solo You're Getting Old
- Thread starter tendo82
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When a specific archetype (in this case, I believe Lovable Rogue [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoveableRogue?from=Main.LovableRogue] fits the bill) becomes overused, however, it becomes stale. To the common man, something is cliched when it's overused to the point of being stale. We can agree that just about every modern adventure story has its Lovable Rogue; the writer was driving more at the fact that the archetype is being overused and is getting old.GonzoGamer said:
Look at some popular games. Most of them have that Lovable Rogue somewhere in the game, especially in Western RPGs. In KOTOR2, you have Atton (He was a failed attempt at a Lovable Rogue, turned out to be more like an Affable Villain or an Anti-Hero, depending on whether you followed the Dark side or not), for example. I personally haven't played Mass Effect, but there is not a doubt in my mind that it has a Lovable Rogue somewhere in the story.
The truth is, the archetype is being overused and has become cliched. Just like the "Paragon of Virtue" cliche created, maintained, and symbolized by Superman [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Comicbook/Superman?from=Main.Superman]. "Cliche" and "archetype" are not mutually exclusive, and it's simply foolish to think of them as such.
I don't like Todd McFarlane because of his awful characters, Venom, Carnage, Spawn etc. Hate em' All.xmetatr0nx said:
Also how is the Spawn style of character under used? Kratos from God of War is VERY similar to Spawn. He has a damn similar back story, damn similar capabilities... all he's missing is the cape and the Christian Mythology.
Actually there isn't, suprisingly, unless that's how you decide to play the main character and even then you kind of need to work at it. The Morality system of Mass Effect is based more around the Dirty Harry vs. Captain America dynamic than good or evil.Flying-Emu said:
I am of the opinion that a do gooder can still be done well and so can a anti-hero. Storywise, a character can be only a hero or an anti-hero. Otherwise he would jump to the other side, the villain side.
What Tom Endo is seeing is bad storytelling. If a character is gruff just for the sake of it, then, yes, the term 'emo' would suffice. (Prince of persia 2 I'm glaring at you). Han solo was a rather 'light' anti-hero. He didn't really harm others and his main fault was that he was lazy when it came to helping others. All he really did wrong was not be the goody two shoes.
There's still deeper to go, such as characters like Sherlock Holmes, who make you question the boundaries of morality (or Dr House from House MD, who is inspired by Holmes), a depth not really explored by star wars. Or hardly any game for that matter.
What would be nice for game developers that want to tell a story to do a little research into what makes a story good and hire writers with gaming experience.
The result will be a game that tells a story in a game way. It won't bring back mainstream adventure games (good riddance!), but it will bring back what we most enjoyed about adventure games: Witty writing and enjoyable stories.
What Tom Endo is seeing is bad storytelling. If a character is gruff just for the sake of it, then, yes, the term 'emo' would suffice. (Prince of persia 2 I'm glaring at you). Han solo was a rather 'light' anti-hero. He didn't really harm others and his main fault was that he was lazy when it came to helping others. All he really did wrong was not be the goody two shoes.
There's still deeper to go, such as characters like Sherlock Holmes, who make you question the boundaries of morality (or Dr House from House MD, who is inspired by Holmes), a depth not really explored by star wars. Or hardly any game for that matter.
What would be nice for game developers that want to tell a story to do a little research into what makes a story good and hire writers with gaming experience.
The result will be a game that tells a story in a game way. It won't bring back mainstream adventure games (good riddance!), but it will bring back what we most enjoyed about adventure games: Witty writing and enjoyable stories.
My point is that it's always been an overused because its a necessary archetype... usually. Since before Star Wars, since before Jane Austin, since even before Shakespeare. They all (over)used the "lovable rogue" archetype because it's a necessary character in most themes; of course how necessary depends on their ultimate function: sacrifice, reform, or just levity.Flying-Emu said:
Can you name a few of that archetype from pre, oh, we'll go with pre-Industrial Revolution? I'm curious; I don't see many lovable rogues in Shakespearean-type work.GonzoGamer said:
I agree, spawn is a very under appreciated comic character. Even though the movie was shit, the comics and that cartoon they had on HBO years ago was amazing.xmetatr0nx said:
Balthier sucked me into Final Fantasy XII harder than a vacuum cleaner after a night of drinking.tendo82 said:
Sounds like a Tony Scott movie with Harvey Keitel.Krakyn said:
So the question is, what will be the next popular character-type? Do we keep going down into the blackness or find something refreshing with a true hero? I wouldn't mind seeing more like Blade, except anybody that doesn't get Blade would only make the character cheesy.
As for a true hero, we have Harry Potter, who still finds wonder in the things he experiences, and is striving to defeat the evil without falling into the same darkness.
Byronic heroes are basically anti-heroes. I think they started right around the middle of the industrial revolution though. I could be wrong, though, because I'm terrible with dateage. I'm also terrible with diction.Flying-Emu said:
The Rover by Aphra Behn, a play written only slightly after Shakespeare's time features a lovable rogue as the titular character.Flying-Emu said:
Puck from Midsummer Nights Dream is an excellent example of the Lovable Rogue archetype.
The Three Musketeers are ALL loveable rogues.
Any Trickster Hero from any nations mythology falls under the loveable rogue category
The list goes on...
Is Han Solo really the pioneer of the anti-hero in geek culture? Does geek culture not precede Starwars? I think so. I can think of many anti-heroes that appeared in novels long before Star Wars. Not that I'm not a Star Wars fan. Just by the time I watched Star Wars for the first time and saw Han Solo swaggering away and making biting remarks, I already knew this character. He felt familiar. And Luke could have been a more interesting character if what-his-face was a better actor. Young coming-of-age Jedi are whiny bitches, it seems.
Heroes are cliché. Villains are cliché. Anti-heroes are cliché. Anti-villains are cliché.
We live in the Information Age, Mr Endo. Within the limits of a sentence, a character, or a canvas, there will soon be nothing left unexpressed.
Originality is a virtue of the past, impossible in this day and age, at least in combination with sanity. That is why, when you look at the TV Tropes website, there is not a single fictional thing listed that doesn't contain a trope. They are everywhere.
So one thing or the other has to die or fall away. Either our dislike of the "cliché" dies, or our love for fiction falls to a lowest common denominator. The future is a choice of one or the other. Of course, we each have limited lives, so everything is relative to our time on Earth as individuals - what isn't new to an old man is new to a child, so fiction will always have its place.
If we are tired of every trope under the sun, there will be none left to hate, and no stories left without them. At that point, I guess it's time for you to read non-fiction, stop playing games, and find a new beginning in the real world. Sometimes, that might be the better choice.
One thing's for sure. Complaining about cliché improves nothing - nothing - in the creative world. The sooner people realise this and relax, the better for all.
We live in the Information Age, Mr Endo. Within the limits of a sentence, a character, or a canvas, there will soon be nothing left unexpressed.
Originality is a virtue of the past, impossible in this day and age, at least in combination with sanity. That is why, when you look at the TV Tropes website, there is not a single fictional thing listed that doesn't contain a trope. They are everywhere.
So one thing or the other has to die or fall away. Either our dislike of the "cliché" dies, or our love for fiction falls to a lowest common denominator. The future is a choice of one or the other. Of course, we each have limited lives, so everything is relative to our time on Earth as individuals - what isn't new to an old man is new to a child, so fiction will always have its place.
If we are tired of every trope under the sun, there will be none left to hate, and no stories left without them. At that point, I guess it's time for you to read non-fiction, stop playing games, and find a new beginning in the real world. Sometimes, that might be the better choice.
One thing's for sure. Complaining about cliché improves nothing - nothing - in the creative world. The sooner people realise this and relax, the better for all.
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