Harder to bear: murder or suicide?

[Epic Bear Man]

I don't really know what inspired me to make this topic at this moment, but regardless I have a question my fellow escapists:
Do you think murder or suicide is harder to bear, in terms of those who were close to the deceased party?

First off, I've never known anyone who's been murdered, but I was close to a girl who committed suicide during my Sophmore year of high school. We were close friends, and I had a big crush on her, but never bothered to ask her out.
When I found out, first I was confused. Then I questioned if I could do anything to bring her back. I made bargains with higher orders to bring her back, regardless of the cost, and I even got to the point where I felt helpless, like everything was my fault, and that I should just go die.

Obviously I didn't die, but it took months before I even began to recover from the incident. It took about two years before I had any real closure and was able to move on.

There's my little anecdote. Do any of you have any tragedies you wish to spill out, or even if you haven't, how do you think you'd respond if someone close to you was recently deceased outside of natural causes?
And which of the two do you think would be more difficult to bear?

 

[Rawne1980]

Only a couple of incidents along those lines.

First was a friend of mine that moved to Blackpool. I don't know the details of why it happened but he was killed, had his head cut off and his body was dumped.

Thing that worries me the most is they never found his head and this was years ago.

I'll give sources just in case people like to read things.

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/archive/1999/01/20/Lancashire+Archive/6135399.Headless_corpse_murder_trial___Maniac__killer_jailed/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/6206646.stm

Second one was another friend who was in the army with me. He left about 2 years before I did so we didn't talk much during that period.

By the time i'd joined him on civvy street he was in massive debt, struggling to find work and his wife was pregnant with their second kid.

He killed himself so his life insurance would keep his wife going.

Now this pissed me off. I'd literally just left the army and had a payout for an injury i'd suffered and had the money to give him. I didn't find out why he did it until after it happened. His 14 year old son told me the problems they'd had.

It's quite a sad state. A group of us that knew each other literally from toddlers (we all lived on the same estate). We started as a group of 11 and between those 2 above and the army we're now down to 5. Lifes a funny fucking affair.

 

[Epic Bear Man]

Only a couple of incidents along those lines.

First was a friend of mine that moved to Blackpool. I don't know the details of why it happened but he was killed, had his head cut off and his body was dumped.

Thing that worries me the most is they never found his head and this was years ago.

I'll give sources just in case people like to read things.

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/archive/1999/01/20/Lancashire+Archive/6135399.Headless_corpse_murder_trial___Maniac__killer_jailed/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/6206646.stm

Second one was another friend who was in the army with me. He left about 2 years before I did so we didn't talk much during that period.

By the time i'd joined him on civvy street he was in massive debt, struggling to find work and his wife was pregnant with their second kid.

He killed himself so his life insurance would keep his wife going.

Now this pissed me off. I'd literally just left the army and had a payout for an injury i'd suffered and had the money to give him. I didn't find out why he did it until after it happened. His 14 year old son told me the problems they'd had.

It's quite a sad state. A group of us that knew each other literally from toddlers (we all lived on the same estate). We started as a group of 11 and between those 2 above and the army we're now down to 5. Lifes a funny fucking affair.

A funny fucking affair is just the simplest way of putting it. Both of those stories are terrible, especially the second one you told, as shocking as the murder is.

But maybe that's just my personal bias. Anyways though, I'm glad your little posse is still alive and well for the most part, even if you are down one member. Hopefully the rest have more peaceful passings, and rich, happy lives. Or as close as they can get to it. =/

 

[tippy2k2]

Well I'd think it depends on a number of big factors...(I'll use my mum since that would hit me the hardest)

1. Who dun it? Was it a random mugging gone wrong or did my step-dad snap and murder my mother?
2. Was the bad guy caught?

I've made my view point very clear on this site before about suicide (99/100 have no excuse and is a pretty cruel thing to do to others) but finding out that a family member is a murderer would take out two lives.

Ugh...I think I'd end up saying Suicide is worse. While bad, there is an explanation for murder. If my mum decided to end it all, that would absolutely destroy our family for an absolutely senseless reason. I would take destroyed family with at least a reason over suicide but hopefully, I will never have to test this theory.

EDIT: I changed and re-changed my mind a bunch while writing this post. I gave a much better explanation later so instead of making you look for it, I copy/pasted it.

For me, suicide has always been one of the most devastatingly selfish things you can do. I have never had it done to me but I have seen two different people have people kill themselves and it absolutely devastates them (and these weren't close members; it was a cousin and a family friend). If that kind of action hurt's that badly for a cousin, what is that going to do if it's your mother/father/brother/sister/anyone that you're REALLY close to?

Murder at least has a reason. It might be a shitty reason (crack-head needs money, psycho killer is crazy, a mis-understanding at the bar turns south) but SOMETHING is there. There is something to be mad at. There is something to focus on. There is a reason...

 

[Shock and Awe]

I've never had anyone close murdered or commit suicide. However if I had to say which is worse I'd probably go with suicide. Murder you at least have someone that you can blame easily and anger tempers grief I suppose.

 

[Epic Bear Man]

Well I'd think it depends on a number of big factors...(I'll use my mum since that would hit me the hardest)

1. Who dun it? Was it a random mugging gone wrong or did my step-dad snap and murder my mother?
2. Was the bad guy caught?

I've made my view point very clear on this site before about suicide (99/100 have no excuse and is a pretty cruel thing to do to others) but finding out that a family member is a murderer would take out two lives.

Ugh...I think I'd end up saying Suicide is worse. While bad, there is an explanation for murder. If my mum decided to end it all, that would absolutely destroy our family for an absolutely senseless reason. I would take destroyed family with at least a reason over suicide but hopefully, I will never have to test this theory.

If we want to get into specifics, we'll say it's a complete stranger who murdered your family.

As far as your viewpoint, I'm new to the site, so I'm relatively unaware. =P Also is your avatar blinking, or is this just a small sign that I'm slowly losing my mind?

Edit: And I too hope you never have to go through that experience. Although I wish no one would have to ever go through that, but that's a difficult wish to be fulfilled.

I've never had anyone close murdered or commit suicide. However if I had to say which is worse I'd probably go with suicide. Murder you at least have someone that you can blame easily and anger tempers grief I suppose.

I pretty much feel the same way. Mind you, I've never experienced murder, so I can't really give personal evidence on that one, but suicide is definitely something difficult to bear, especially from someone very close.
As I said, it took me a long time to not only accept that she was gone, but also to accept that there was nothing I could feasibly have done. Not everyone's lucky enough to get past those two things, and even if they do, it can change people in some harsh ways. =/

 

[tippy2k2]

If we want to get into specifics, we'll say it's a complete stranger who murdered your family.

As far as your viewpoint, I'm new to the site, so I'm relatively unaware. =P Also is your avatar blinking, or is this just a small sign that I'm slowly losing my mind?

Edit: And I too hope you never have to go through that experience. Although I wish no one would have to ever go through that, but that's a difficult wish to be fulfilled.

I wasn't chastising you or anything, I was just pointing out that people on this site may already know where I stand here. I would take the stranger murder over the suicide then.

As to your question, he does indeed blink. Approx. every 21 seconds if you were wondering

 

[Epic Bear Man]

If we want to get into specifics, we'll say it's a complete stranger who murdered your family.

As far as your viewpoint, I'm new to the site, so I'm relatively unaware. =P Also is your avatar blinking, or is this just a small sign that I'm slowly losing my mind?

Edit: And I too hope you never have to go through that experience. Although I wish no one would have to ever go through that, but that's a difficult wish to be fulfilled.

I wasn't chastising you or anything, I was just pointing out that people on this site may already know where I stand here. I would take the stranger murder over the suicide then.

As to your question, he does indeed blink. Approx. every 21 seconds if you were wondering

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like you were chastising me. XD I was just trying to be a little humourous. =P

And would you mind explaining why you think the stranger-murder would be harder to overcome than suicide?

 

[tippy2k2]

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like you were chastising me. XD I was just trying to be a little humourous. =P

And would you mind explaining why you think the stranger-murder would be harder to overcome than suicide?

There's not really much to explain beyond what I had in my first post. I have no real world experience to determine if someone killing themselves would be better or them getting brutally murdered in a mugging-gone-wrong would be better.

For me, suicide has always been one of the most devastatingly selfish things you can do. I have never had it done to me but I have seen two different people have people kill themselves and it absolutely devastates them (and these weren't close members; it was a cousin and a family friend). If that kind of action hurt's that badly for a cousin, what is that going to do if it's your mother/father/brother/sister/anyone that you're REALLY close to?

Murder at least has a reason. It might be a shitty reason (crack-head needs money, psycho killer is crazy, a mis-understanding at the bar turns south) but SOMETHING is there. There is something to be mad at. There is something to focus on. There is a reason...

 

[Epic Bear Man]

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like you were chastising me. XD I was just trying to be a little humourous. =P

And would you mind explaining why you think the stranger-murder would be harder to overcome than suicide?

There's not really much to explain beyond what I had in my first post. I have no real world experience to determine if someone killing themselves would be better or them getting brutally murdered in a mugging-gone-wrong would be better.

For me, suicide has always been one of the most devastatingly selfish things you can do. I have never had it done to me but I have seen two different people have people kill themselves and it absolutely devastates them (and these weren't close members; it was a cousin and a family friend). If that kind of action hurt's that badly for a cousin, what is that going to do if it's your mother/father/brother/sister/anyone that you're REALLY close to?

Murder at least has a reason. It might be a shitty reason (crack-head needs money, psycho killer is crazy, a mis-understanding at the bar turns south) but SOMETHING is there. There is something to be mad at. There is something to focus on. There is a reason...

Oh no no, I thought because I said it was a stranger you were now saying it'd be more difficult to bear the thought of a stranger murdering the family than someone committing suicide.

 

[IndomitableSam]

Sorry, wrong thread... I'd blame the tablet, but it's all me.

 

[tippy2k2]

Oh no no, I thought because I said it was a stranger you were now saying it'd be more difficult to bear the thought of a stranger murdering the family than someone committing suicide.

Yeah, I changed and re-changed my mind in my original post as I was writing it and now that I go back and re-read it, it doesn't make much sense anymore. I'm just going to copy/paste the response I just gave to hopefully clear it up. So hopefully my stance makes sense now

 

[EeveeElectro]

I'd say a suicide is harder to deal with. If someone I loved committed suicide I'd feel distraught because I'd be tormenting myself with thinking there was something I could have done to prevent that. Murder is also hard to deal with, having someone unfairly snatched from you. Having someone to choose to end their own life is much worse in my opinion.

-snip-

He survived the army, then killed himself? :/ I've been in debt and it sucks but life goes on. There's stuff you can do to manage your debt. I know people react differently to life dealing them a bad hand but surely it's better to not leave your pregnant wife and child without a father and husband...

 

[Rawne1980]

He survived the army, then killed himself? :/ I've been in debt and it sucks but life goes on. There's stuff you can do to manage your debt. I know people react differently to life dealing them a bad hand but surely it's better to not leave your pregnant wife and child without a father and husband...

He'd taken to drink ... badly.

We had a bad tour when we got sent to the Persian Gulf. We had a real shitty time, saw some nasty stuff and it hit him the hardest, it's the main reason he left the army.

According to his wife the debt just made him worse and he drank harder. Got him to a point where he must have seen that as his way out of it.

His wife and son ended up living with us while she got herself back on her feet.

 

[Darken12]

Murder is definitely harder to bear. Suicide is perfectly understandable and (in my personal opinion) a right every person has. I would never blame a person for committing suicide, I would never consider them selfish or cowardly, or any other negative thing.

Murder, on the other hand, is impossible to justify (unless it's self-defence, in which case it's not murder) and intrinsically implies that someone else had control over your own life, that they decided when you died. That is what is unforgivable for me: the sudden loss of autonomy.

 

[NightmareExpress]

Suicide, I think.
If you are particularly close to the victim, you can't help but feel guilty to some extent.
When you have a clear perpetrator of a crime (the murderer), it's easy to point a finger and feel somewhat resolved.
In the case of someone killing themselves, the perpetrator (the only one to give a good answer) is gone and the reason why lingers on to remain without a clear answer. Was it something you said? Something someone else said? Could you have prevented it? Did you not notice something? Why? Even if why...just why?

Wouldn't call them selfish, though.
I'd just call the world a fucked up place where such a way is a solution of sorts.
They were suffering, they didn't wish to be judged. Yet...here we are calling them "selfish" in death.
Us, the people who wanted them in our lives (without necessarily helping). I think there lies some hypocrisy in that, to some extent.

Though an unresolved murder is equally bad, in my books.
It's bad enough when the "justice" system is unable to provide an equal punishment, but when the person completely escapes? Just no getting any resolution from that. They're out there somewhere. Could be one of your friends. Could be a co-worker. You won't know why (the most burning of questions), either.

I view murder itself as worse than suicide because the person dying isn't the one to make that choice.
They are just robbed of their life against their will. Regardless of the reason, that's just wrong. Especially if it was a random act of violence were neither party signed an agreement that they would open fire upon one another. So to sum up a sprawling ramble...

Regular murder where the guilty party is convicted and brought to justice is easier to bear, but the act of murder (I think) is still worse than suicide.

 

[EeveeElectro]

He survived the army, then killed himself? :/ I've been in debt and it sucks but life goes on. There's stuff you can do to manage your debt. I know people react differently to life dealing them a bad hand but surely it's better to not leave your pregnant wife and child without a father and husband...

He'd taken to drink ... badly.

We had a bad tour when we got sent to the Persian Gulf. We had a real shitty time, saw some nasty stuff and it hit him the hardest, it's the main reason he left the army.

According to his wife the debt just made him worse and he drank harder. Got him to a point where he must have seen that as his way out of it.

His wife and son ended up living with us while she got herself back on her feet.

Eeek. Understandable then. I probably wouldn't deal well if that happened to me. It depends on the strength of that person, some people just can't deal very well. My mum lost a friend due to suicide after he took up the drink, I suppose if someone is really that miserable then I suppose you can't really blame them.

Good on you for being there for his wife in her time of need.

 

[Andy Shandy]

While luckily for myself, I haven't had the misfortune to experience either, I think suicide would be worse. Because you always think you could've done more to help the person, and stop them from taking their own life.