Harmonix Insists That Music Games Are Not Dead

[MarsProbe]

Rhythm Action gaming?

Where's the action game part?

Rhythm action? When I hear that name, it conjures up images of Ouendan, Gitaroo Man, Parappa the Rapper and the like. I may be wrong, but have never thought of games like Rock Band and Guitar Hero as being in that category.

Anyway, I may have forked out for the first two Rock Bands and Guitar Hero 5, but I think I'm basically done with "music games" now. All the best to them though, regardless.

 

[malestrithe]

Like everything else in the gaming industry, rhythm games will disappear for a few years because the target audience will get bored with it. As soon as enough years have past, they will come back. They will just need to wait for the next big thing to bring it back stronger than ever.

My guess the next big thing in the music game genre is the freestyle rap battle simulator. You and an opponent have to drop as many rhymes as possible in the set time limit and the one that cannot loses. Laugh if you want, but I have witnessed many teenagers of all races and creeds do rap battles when I substitute taught.

 

[uppitycracker]

Some of us don't use the guitars; we use the mics and drums...you know...the nearly real instruments.

I love to perform. I've done it on stage, professionally, it's not a dream. I just don't have the time to pursue it like I used to. However, the desire's not going away, ever. This is why I grew to love Rock Band: I get to perform whenever I want. Same with SingStar. It's _real_ performance if i want it to be. "Performance" or "Rhythm-Action" gaming to me is a passion piggybacked on a passion. BTW, performance isn't imagining you are on a stage. It is its own thing, a reward for the doing; you either must act out or not. That's what makes the performance part fun. This is similar to the need to complete a level in a game perfectly whether you have spectators or not. YOU know it happened, and that's the best part.

So, I'm one of the guys he is talking about. This genre has many levels of play and reward, many types of players, long legs and a convenient hook into past, present and future pop-culture. Even though we are in a bit of a valley ATM, I'd put my money on the long term.

I dunno, I guess the reason why I never got into these games is because I still do perform on stage. It's such a completely different thing to me, I feel like I'm just cheapening my own experience by playing the damn games. I guess it's different for everybody, but ya, it's why I never really got it.

Also, I'd hardly call the drums "nearly" the same thing. It's just as close as the guitars, IMO.

 

[SaintWaldo]

Some of us don't use the guitars; we use the mics and drums...you know...the nearly real instruments.

I love to perform. I've done it on stage, professionally, it's not a dream. I just don't have the time to pursue it like I used to. However, the desire's not going away, ever. This is why I grew to love Rock Band: I get to perform whenever I want. Same with SingStar. It's _real_ performance if i want it to be. "Performance" or "Rhythm-Action" gaming to me is a passion piggybacked on a passion. BTW, performance isn't imagining you are on a stage. It is its own thing, a reward for the doing; you either must act out or not. That's what makes the performance part fun. This is similar to the need to complete a level in a game perfectly whether you have spectators or not. YOU know it happened, and that's the best part.

So, I'm one of the guys he is talking about. This genre has many levels of play and reward, many types of players, long legs and a convenient hook into past, present and future pop-culture. Even though we are in a bit of a valley ATM, I'd put my money on the long term.

I dunno, I guess the reason why I never got into these games is because I still do perform on stage. It's such a completely different thing to me, I feel like I'm just cheapening my own experience by playing the damn games. I guess it's different for everybody, but ya, it's why I never really got it.

Also, I'd hardly call the drums "nearly" the same thing. It's just as close as the guitars, IMO.

Um, have you actually played them? With the exception of a hit-hat foot and a double-kick, it's insane to claim it's not well into "nearly" the same thing. You do know that people hook up sound triggers to REAL drum sets to play along, right? If you are trying to hit a predefined set of hits on predefined drums, all that's really different between real drums and RB/GHWT is the notation style. The sounds made by the pads when playing a beat properly sounds just like hitting midi pads or buckets, and I'm sorry to tell you this but that is drumming. Also, playing RB drums has put me in a real drum store to replace parts on my pedal. A real drum pedal that has a proximity switch on it to trigger RB kicks. If I use a real pedal to do it, is it still "fake"?

Let me flip this: At what point would you say they ARE "nearly" the same thing? Do you consider hand triggered midi drums "real" drums? Because that's EXACTLY what's going in in RB/GHWT.

And for singing, man, you really should try it. Some people would not call it a game in the strictest sense; they would call it "practice". I know I do. I know the lyrics to tons more songs and have extended my vocal range just by singing in these games. It's a private practice with a note-matching coach. On expert, the drum and vocal parts of these games get very demanding and are quite suitable for self-learning to either drum or sing.

The point of this reply is not to get in your face about how wrong you are, though I don't blame you if you felt that way at times while reading it. The real point of this post is to urge you to revisit your conclusions in the context of actually trying the other parts and not getting caught up in the guitar portion. There are many layers to these games and there's a LOT more in here for actual musicians than for non-musicians, if they can get over their knee-jerk derision and prejudice. Trust me, I had to do the same thing.

 

[uppitycracker]

Some of us don't use the guitars; we use the mics and drums...you know...the nearly real instruments.

I love to perform. I've done it on stage, professionally, it's not a dream. I just don't have the time to pursue it like I used to. However, the desire's not going away, ever. This is why I grew to love Rock Band: I get to perform whenever I want. Same with SingStar. It's _real_ performance if i want it to be. "Performance" or "Rhythm-Action" gaming to me is a passion piggybacked on a passion. BTW, performance isn't imagining you are on a stage. It is its own thing, a reward for the doing; you either must act out or not. That's what makes the performance part fun. This is similar to the need to complete a level in a game perfectly whether you have spectators or not. YOU know it happened, and that's the best part.

So, I'm one of the guys he is talking about. This genre has many levels of play and reward, many types of players, long legs and a convenient hook into past, present and future pop-culture. Even though we are in a bit of a valley ATM, I'd put my money on the long term.

I dunno, I guess the reason why I never got into these games is because I still do perform on stage. It's such a completely different thing to me, I feel like I'm just cheapening my own experience by playing the damn games. I guess it's different for everybody, but ya, it's why I never really got it.

Also, I'd hardly call the drums "nearly" the same thing. It's just as close as the guitars, IMO.

Um, have you actually played them? With the exception of a hit-hat foot and a double-kick, it's insane to claim it's not well into "nearly" the same thing. You do know that people hook up sound triggers to REAL drum sets to play along, right? If you are trying to hit a predefined set of hits on predefined drums, all that's really different between real drums and RB/GHWT is the notation style. The sounds made by the pads when playing a beat properly sounds just like hitting midi pads or buckets, and I'm sorry to tell you this but that is drumming. Also, playing RB drums has put me in a real drum store to replace parts on my pedal. A real drum pedal that has a proximity switch on it to trigger RB kicks. If I use a real pedal to do it, is it still "fake"?

Let me flip this: At what point would you say they ARE "nearly" the same thing? Do you consider hand triggered midi drums "real" drums? Because that's EXACTLY what's going in in RB/GHWT.

And for singing, man, you really should try it. Some people would not call it a game in the strictest sense; they would call it "practice". I know I do. I know the lyrics to tons more songs and have extended my vocal range just by singing in these games. It's a private practice with a note-matching coach. On expert, the drum and vocal parts of these games get very demanding and are quite suitable for self-learning to either drum or sing.

The point of this reply is not to get in your face about how wrong you are, though I don't blame you if you felt that way at times while reading it. The real point of this post is to urge you to revisit your conclusions in the context of actually trying the other parts and not getting caught up in the guitar portion. There are many layers to these games and there's a LOT more in here for actual musicians than for non-musicians, if they can get over their knee-jerk derision and prejudice. Trust me, I had to do the same thing.

i'll start off by sayin ya, i totally see yer not trying to get in my face about it, which i appreciate. i know i have some bias that i have a really, really hard time getting past with these kinda games, but ya. i guess i hardly find the drums "nearly" realistic because it's so different with the style I'm used to, but watching people play em, it just doesn't really seem to match up, unless you consider hand and foot coordination to be the base of it. granted, i haven't tried the drums, so my biased point of view really doesn't hold much weight lol, i'll be the first to admit.

and for the singing, i WOULD give it a shot if A) they had a single song on any of those games that I really enjoyed, or B) I actually enjoyed being on a mic. I'm a bass player for a punk rock band, and only do backup vocals when they really want me to, not too fond of the mic, at least in front of my face. i can see yer point on how it could help develop for drums and vocals, but neither of those are my thing, and there really isn't much the games could teach me in the way of the bass. ESPECIALLY for the style of music that I play. This is why I mentioned it would cheapen the experience for me.

I have played the games before, back when I worked at game crazy, but ya, just never really did it for me. I'd have to say that the biggest thing that would hold me back from even trying it is the lack of time. Between work, practice, recording and promoting I really don't have the time for games these days. I'm sure you know how it goes if you've had experience with it. Which I find funny, lol, because I noticed you saying that you dont have the time for performances anymore, we're kinda on the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

[The Bandit]

If we say it over and over again, maybe we'll actually start to believe it! Who knows?! If we lie hard enough, it might even come true!

 

[SaintWaldo]

I'm a bass player for a punk rock band, and only do backup vocals when they really want me to, not too fond of the mic, at least in front of my face. i can see yer point on how it could help develop for drums and vocals, but neither of those are my thing, and there really isn't much the games could teach me in the way of the bass. ESPECIALLY for the style of music that I play. This is why I mentioned it would cheapen the experience for me.

When I approached the games as a guitar player, and the games only simulated guitar, I held the exact same opinion. If you don't want to explore the non-guitar parts that now exist in these games, I would agree that they don't hold much that ought to interest you. But if you ever DO get the itch to drum or sing...

 

[uppitycracker]

I'm a bass player for a punk rock band, and only do backup vocals when they really want me to, not too fond of the mic, at least in front of my face. i can see yer point on how it could help develop for drums and vocals, but neither of those are my thing, and there really isn't much the games could teach me in the way of the bass. ESPECIALLY for the style of music that I play. This is why I mentioned it would cheapen the experience for me.

When I approached the games as a guitar player, and the games only simulated guitar, I held the exact same opinion. If you don't want to explore the non-guitar parts that now exist in these games, I would agree that they don't hold much that ought to interest you. But if you ever DO get the itch to drum or sing...

hehe should it ever happen, (it'll be WAY more likely for drums than vocals haha, i hate that mic so much, you have no idea ) I'll definitely take it into consideration.

 

[brunothepig]

Though i always say, if you want to play the guitar learn it, don't click on a plastic controller, its one of the few video game things you can actually do. Seeing people play guitar hero and even brag about it is just pathetic.

I'm sick of people saying this. I'm well aware that there's a difference. Personally, I find it to have most in common in keyboard. I play guitar hero for fun. I enjoy the game, and I know a lot of people that do, some also play guitar. The satisfaction I feel five starring Battery on hard, or getting one hundred percent on Sad But True, or finally finishing Through The Fire And Flames is the same kind of feeling from gaining another level up in Oblivion, or getting all the gold medals for a level in Command And Conquer, or finding that last seal in Assassins Creed 2. Lastly, when you can play Through The Fire And Flames on guitar, then you can start telling me to pick up a guitar. Go ahead, try. Youtube it, I dare you.
Back on topic: I agree, I would like to see another Guitar Hero... I'm still waiting to see a legit Heavy Metal edition.

 

[Scrythe]

Spoiler: Story time. |!|WARNING|!| It's long...

I used to belong to a fairly large group of people (roughly 10-15 people) who would throw weekend excursions involving all sorts of things you probably shouldn't know about. And while we had all sorts of foreign chemicals fizzing around our skulls, one of our favorite time kills was Rock Band.

You see, many of us at that time have already played a Guitar Hero game - and in my case, I've played almost every Harmonix game since FreQuency at that time. Even fewer of still actually played Guitar Hero mainly because of the music selection and the fact that timing button presses isn't a simple task for the average RPG/FPS players, no matter how many quick time events the industry shoves down our throats. The Rock Band happened.

"Holy shit!", we collectively thought, "it'll have instruments for an entire band!" Me being the only person at the time who held a regular job, I was the one who ended up purchasing the game. Every weekend, we had a blast with Rock Band and there was never an empty spot for an instrument. Rock Band had a superior music selection (if you exclude Guitar Hero 3), and because it featured a wide range of music, there was always a compromise for music; -- and in my case, Guitar Hero was 99% of bands I either hated or never heard of, Guitar Hero 2 consisted of a few decent tracks and Jordan, and Guitar Hero 3 was crammed full of win, much to my friends' dismay considering my radically different musical tastes than them.

But taking a step back there: we had so much fun with this rhythm game because it was easily accessible, had a diverse range of music and involved the magical co-op number of four. This game was passed around between us all almost as much as the rest of our exploits. Things went well until the flimsy plastic bass pedal shattered under the stress of a series of circumstances. For whatever reason, nobody played Rock Band after that and everyone pretty much defaulted to Brawl (much to my dismay).

By the time Rock Band 2 came out, things pretty much died out with our rhythm game craze. Sure we played it for a few months, but now I have a neat little pile of plastic peripherals in my garage being as useful as all all the other crap in there. We didn't get Guitar Hero 4 or 5 because... well, why? We already have Rock Band, why the hell would we get the same game under a different label with roughly the same tracklist?

We didn't get Guitar Hero: Van Halen because I'm the only person in the group who even heard of Van Halen, let alone like them. I got Guitar Hero: Metallica because I'm still a huge Metallica fan and it's pretty much a single player game. We didn't get Lego Rock Band because every Lego game is made of gimmick and trash (except for Lego Racers!) and we didn't get Beatles: Rock Band because most of use hate the Beatles. We didn't get AC/DC Rock band because these same unenlightened heathens haven't heard any AC/DC song that wasn't in a movie or commercial. We didn't get Guitar Hero: Aerosmith because only one person in the group likes Aerosmith and frankly, I got sick and tired of them around the time Revolution X [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_X] game out. As for Green Day: Rock Band? That's the biggest oxymoron I've heard in a long time. Seriously. So when that comes out, it won't be on any of our checklists.

I guess we realized that this rhythm game thing was just a quick fad that died out. So by the time Activision thought that for whatever reason that DJ Hero was a good idea, we have all moved on past that phase. I guess you could take this entire transition and apply it to the rest of the world. At this point, the only people who would even consider buying DJ Hero are children, people who really like the tracklist, people who review games, people who would buy it ironically, or a combination of the above. So chances are, unless DJ Hero 2 comes with a peripheral that injects morphine into you every time you at least three star a song, nobody is going to buy it.

When the was last time your fingers touched a plastic rhythm game peripheral? When was the last time your feet have touched plastic arrow keys? When was the last time you went to an arcade and played a game consisting of you rapidly jerking your body in awkward motions? Rhythm games are dead.

 

[Aura Guardian]

It's not that it's dead. It's just that people have enough sense to not buy music games that are just about one band, or sequels when the originals are just as good and cheaper.

I mean, unless someone comes up with something completely new for the music genre then-

[img/]http://www.milkcratenyc.com/blog/images/dj-hero.jpg[/img]

Oh...Yeah.

Holy shit. That cover art is BETTER than the actual one.

 

[little bear]

maybe harmonix should make some more deals with activision and tag-team with'em to expand on more DJ hero? slow down the production to these games to 1 a year per series(guitar hero=1,rock band=1) or focus on DCL for current titles?

I always felt the problem with music games nowadays were their overproduction (Remember DJ max fever people? remember singstar?). I'm a man of good things and my favorite kind of pizza is of course broccoli pizza. but every now and again I'd rather have a sub than pizza.

 

[Doggabone]

Very few people can play dragonforce on the guitar, that's why they are a famous band, but clicking on a piece of plastic imagining you are playing actual music is pathetic...

Why is that you never see, on a Call of Duty thread (for example), "Clicking on a controller and imagining you are actually a soldier in World War II is pathetic"? I actually can tell the difference between playing GH/RB and packing up a few of my guitars and the rig for a live show. And yet - I actually enjoy getting 5 stars on a tricky song and have had a BLAST rescuing some songs in on-line play.

The whole "it's not real music" is an empty argument. WE KNOW IT'S A GAME, WE'RE NOT IDIOTS. I never see anyone claim that they've become a great guitarist by playing the game, just a lot of people shouting that you can't become a guitarist.

Well, duh. The drums will give you some of the fundamentals - not enough to take to the stage, but enough to get started on a kit. You get the hand/hand/foot co-ordination, rhythm practice, and so on. They're a close analogue to a small kit of practice pads. The mic is even closer - you sing it, you hear it, you get feedback on pitch, etc. I don't know how it works because I'm pathologically allergic to singing when I can be heard.

Guitar and bass, obviously, are the farthest removed from the real thing. (Or maybe the turntable of DJ Hero is even farther removed, I have no idea.) But even at that, I pick up a few ideas of phrasing, timing, and patterns, and mostly by listening to the songs I'm playing with. Not much of a musical education, but I take some of that and apply it to my own playing. The non-guitar nature of the controller actually gets me to think about the phrases in a different way, but that's me. (Live, I'm listening to the band - in the game, I'm listening to whatever line I'm playing.) Learning keyboard parts gets me to rethink the guitar, too.

Music games don't teach about the instrument. They might teach you a little about music, and that can give you a head-start on an instrument.

I don't advocate the game for that, either - I advocate the game for people who like music, because it's fun. And that goes double for people who don't particularly enjoy video-games or play an instrument. It's fun to imagine, not pathetic - unless you actually believe the next day that the make-believe is real. Or not - there's nothing that's fun for everybody.