Harrison: Removing Kinect Creates "Virtuous Cycle" of More Consumers, Developers

CardinalPiggles

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Whoracle said:
BlameTheWizards said:
[...]with an average of 120 voice commands being issued each day by all users.[...]
Now, this might be a case of getting lost in translation, with me not being a native english speaker and all that, but that sounds like all users (all 80% of XBone buyers) issue 120 commands per day, total, on average. Which made me laugh out loud :)

And no, I don't have anything substantial to contribute to the discussion, other than pointing out that this was phrased poorly, IMHO.
The number is probably only that high because they factored in all the failed voice commands. People are probably having to repeat themselves before the Kinect understands them.

Although it did work first time when I said "Xbox off" to my friends Xbox that was only supposed to listen to his voice, that was pretty funny.
 

BloodRed Pixel

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Fulbert said:
Whoracle said:
BlameTheWizards said:
[...]with an average of 120 voice commands being issued each day by all users.[...]
Now, this might be a case of getting lost in translation, with me not being a native english speaker and all that, but that sounds like all users (all 80% of XBone buyers) issue 120 commands per day, total, on average. Which made me laugh out loud :)

And no, I don't have anything substantial to contribute to the discussion, other than pointing out that this was phrased poorly, IMHO.
Yep, wanted to point out the same thing. 120 commands by all the xbone users per day is not something it'd brag about if I were a Microsoft official.
Salute to you for seeing the details!
I understood that sentence the same way. Harrison does want to sell an utter failure as a feature.
 

CardinalPiggles

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Cybylt said:
Sooo... are we just gonna gloss over how Microsoft monitors the use of the camera/microphone in their customers' homes?

That's not creepy at all.
I think "monitors" isn't the right word. Tracking numbers and monitoring people are two vastly different things. It's most likely just raw (sorry, "metadata") collected.
 

Whoracle

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CardinalPiggles said:
Cybylt said:
Sooo... are we just gonna gloss over how Microsoft monitors the use of the camera/microphone in their customers' homes?

That's not creepy at all.
I think "monitors" isn't the right word. Tracking numbers and monitoring people are two vastly different things. It's most likely just raw data collected.
I hope you meant "just metadata", because RAW data would in fact be all data the kinect generates :) And still, the same arguments that were brought on back when they announced their always online BS still hold true: Even IF MS doesn't actively monitor your kinect, that's not saying someone else won't *cough*NSA&GCHQ*cough*...

Also, metadata can be pretty informative, too, just so you know.
 

CardinalPiggles

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Whoracle said:
CardinalPiggles said:
Cybylt said:
Sooo... are we just gonna gloss over how Microsoft monitors the use of the camera/microphone in their customers' homes?

That's not creepy at all.
I think "monitors" isn't the right word. Tracking numbers and monitoring people are two vastly different things. It's most likely just raw data collected.
I hope you meant "just metadata", because RAW data would in fact be all data the kinect generates :) And still, the same arguments that were brought on back when they announced their always online BS still hold true: Even IF MS doesn't actively monitor your kinect, that's not saying someone else won't *cough*NSA&GCHQ*cough*...

Also, metadata can be pretty informative, too, just so you know.
Thanks for the correction, I'm terribly uninformed when it comes to computer terminology. But still (while trying very hard not to sound like a MS advocate) It's not like this information is light of something sinister from MS, most companies track this kind of stuff.
 

Whoracle

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CardinalPiggles said:
Thanks for the correction, I'm terribly uninformed when it comes to computer terminology. But still (while trying very hard not to sound like a MS advocate) It's not like this information is light of something sinister from MS, most companies track this kind of stuff.
Yes, most do, which makes matters worse. Only data that isn't stored can't be abused. And we've seen how much the companies care for the security of our data (again, this is without touching the subject of the likes of NSA et al.), which is: not at all. Amazon, eBay, Sony, Gawker, they have all been hacked at one or more points, and most often not by highly trained professionals, but by script kiddies. Data security costs money and doesn't bring any monetary benefit to said companies. To make a device mandatory which is for all intents and purposes a sophisticated audio and video bug is highly dumb, if not suspicious. And once more: I don't belive (for now) that MS is actively gathering the raw data, but I'll be damned if they nailed their stuff shut enough that no one else can abuse it.
And as for metadata: There has been an experiment of a german politician who decided to look what only the cell change data from his mobile phone told about him. http://www.zeit.de/datenschutz/malte-spitz-data-retention <- give that a whirl. That is only data that the cell phone providers HAVE to track in order to provide their services. Now translate that to the kinect: With metadata alone y<ou can gather how much time on average a person is at home each day, on which days they're most likely to be at home, when their children are with them ("XBox, start netflix... watch Frozen!"), when they're most likely to be asleep ("XBox off" issued moon-fri no later than 1am for example) etc.
Now map that to other metadata gained from different sources (cell phones, facebook, whatsapp etc.) that you can access publicly or at least without much hassle, and you've got a pretty good image of a persons live and can foretell where they'll most likely be in a few days, too.

All of this without any NEED to gather the data. I mean, for what do they gather the data? For advertisements? Bad deal yor the user, I'd say. And once the script kiddies or someone else grabs the data, you're screwed...

tl;dr:
Data security is expensive and doesn't benefit the companies. "Other companies do it, too" makes it even worse. Metadata is more dangerous than most people think. And I don't trust any of those companies to keep the data secure, simply because they DEMONSTRATED that they can't (or can't be bothered to).
The only secure data is data that isn't there. Which is why the Kinect in itself was a mediocre idea, mandatory bundling and always-online were really BAD ideas.
 

Brian Tams

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Its like every Microsoft exec under the sun is lining up with a baseball bat to take a swing at the kinect. And if I could, I would join them.
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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"Ecosystem" ?
From what i read earlier in the week about the power usage of that twitchy beast.. this has some aggressively sinister undertones.

Anyhoo, every news article with MS speaking just sounds like "Yeah, we got this product that we really want you peeps to buy, but you just aint buying. These other ppl bought it, so they must know its good, right? We hoped you would seeing as its the best...wait, thats been proven wrong...but we definately believe it COULD be the best. ...If you look at it slightly different. No...youre not looking at it right. Let me turn it a bit. ...Hey! Youre not even looking!! Jim? Can we get some different lighting here please??"
Um, i forgot where i was going wih this. Ah yes, This is not news! Why am i even commenting here?!
 

CardinalPiggles

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Whoracle said:
Epic snip
I would agree with pretty much everything you said here, but the fact remains that MS aren't doing anything bad here (which is what the other person I initially replied to was saying). They are however like you said, doing incredibly stupid things like putting glorified webcams/microphones in peoples houses that can and will at some point be abused by "script kiddies".

Thankfully I never bothered with either the first or the second generation Kinect's, so I don't have to worry.
 

flying_whimsy

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So much spin. Ever since that disastrous pre-launch fiasco I suspect that microsoft's pr department has been nothing but dj's. (sorry)

Seriously though, it's kind of amusing to see just how hard microsoft has been trying to salvage the xbone. Every announcement consists of some kind of back peddling or excuse making (in this case: if you buy it we'll be able to get more devs on board). Considering the console was built from the ground up as a marketing tool, I'm glad the kinect will become optional. From a programming and optimization standpoint, this should improve system performance, too. Who knows, they might even be able to make a few big games run in 1080p now.

I just wish they'd stop all this pr nonsense and just say "yeah, we were wrong from the start, here's the system we should have been selling. Also, sorry for spying on you." After that they'll admit xbox live is a ripoff and they'll give us a cure for cancer and flying cars.
 

Arawn

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What he says makes sense up to a point. The more people that buy Xbox One, the better. This is a common sense statement as it applies to any gaming system. If there were more sales of a console then that console will get more games and more attention from developers. Companies don't want to take a big risk on something that's unpopular. The fact of the matter is that Kinect isn't/wasn't popular. Not just on these forum, but many others I frequent have I heard disdain for the device. Not to say that some didn't find is satisfactory, but the general consensus was/is that it's junk and they didn't like it. Still MS persisted that the device would be the crux of their new system. Thankfully that's not the case as they've now decided to remove Kinect.

Whoracle said:
BlameTheWizards said:
[...]with an average of 120 voice commands being issued each day by all users.[...]
Now, this might be a case of getting lost in translation, with me not being a native english speaker and all that, but that sounds like all users (all 80% of XBone buyers) issue 120 commands per day, total, on average. Which made me laugh out loud :)

And no, I don't have anything substantial to contribute to the discussion, other than pointing out that this was phrased poorly, IMHO.
Yes, I think he said that wrong. He more than likely meant 120 per customer per day. Not 120 total per day for the entirety of the users. If that were the case he wouldn't offer up such information as it points how little the Kinect is utilized. Sales in the millions across many places, 80% of those units with only 120 commands total? That would be pathetic. But that number itself is rather surprising. From what little I hear on the Xbox One, most only use the voice commands to turn the unit on and off. Perhaps it's due to the TV features and web browsing that pumps up the numbers. Still I can't see anyone making a rapid succession of commands. I watch TV/movies within hour blocks in most cases. There are points I stop for snacks, commercials, and what not, the same can be said for my gaming sessions. Unless you're constantly switching channels I can't understand how that many voice commands would be used. Perhaps like someone stated it's counting failed commands as well as successful ones.
 

PoolCleaningRobot

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I like how he acts like this some amazing new idea or innovation they came up with. "Now we can open up the platform and give consumers more choices". Sony already did that by not including a $100 motion camera that isn't good enough for playing most games
 

Whoracle

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CardinalPiggles said:
I would agree with pretty much everything you said here, but the fact remains that MS aren't doing anything bad here (which is what the other person I initially replied to was saying). They are however like you said, doing incredibly stupid things like putting glorified webcams/microphones in peoples houses that can and will at some point be abused by "script kiddies".

Thankfully I never bothered with either the first or the second generation Kinect's, so I don't have to worry.
I know, sorry. Didn't want to harp on you. The whole big data/data security/kinect topic is just a biiiig rage button for me, especially when people "downplay" the impact of metadata. I realize that hasn't been your intention, it's just a trigger for me ;)
 

Vegosiux

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ThunderCavalier said:
So, after a year or two of trying to cram Kinect down our throats, Microsoft is finally conceding that they're wasting their time.

Took them long enough.
Yeah but now they're going around, acting as if they figured this out all by themselves. Honestly, what universe are they living in?
 

LobsterFeng

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Those statistics for the Kinect usage frighten me. Do they know how often the Kinect is being used because it's always watching you?
 

Something Amyss

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oldtaku said:
evilnancyreagan said:
This on RPS just a couple days ago:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/05/21/of-mice-and-gamepads-the-future-of-controllers/
A strong argument in favor of other, unconventional game control mechanisms like Kinect.
Only if they work. Kinect fails to work far too often. If it actually did what it promised everyone would love it (and you'd see a lot more games using it).

I've got one gathering dust on my X360, and the XB1 Kinect fails to be better at anything but navigating the XB1 dashboard (which seems to be designed purposely bad to force you to use it). The input lag on Kinect Sports Rivals is excruciating even when it does actually correctly recognize what you're trying to do. It's actually LESS intuitive and immersive than just using a gamepad would be.
It's even worse when you consider it's a resource hog (and in more ways than one). Even without Kinect, Xbone uses less powerful tech than the PS4 because they banked on the now-absent Kinect being a lasting and integral part of this cycle.

PoolCleaningRobot said:
I like how he acts like this some amazing new idea or innovation they came up with. "Now we can open up the platform and give consumers more choices". Sony already did that by not including a $100 motion camera that isn't good enough for playing most games
Yeah, and it's like "congratulations! You could have done that at launch!"

Cybylt said:
Sooo... are we just gonna gloss over how Microsoft monitors the use of the camera/microphone in their customers' homes?

That's not creepy at all.
As long as it's only the use it's no different from any other element of the consoles.