Has "A Song of Ice and Fire" ruined fantasy?
- Thread starter jademunky
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Indeed. Some people may like the "Anyone can die" kind of behaviour, but Martin just does that badly.jademunky said:
Well the majority of her followers are people that she has freed from cities run by brutal leaders. She gets money from Xaro Daxos and her army is The Unsullied, soldiers raised from birth who know nothing more than following a leader, and once she kills theirs and even gives them the option to be free, they choose to serve her.SimpleThunda said:
Yeah, once would be enough with the castration thing, but to just keep coming back to the subject again and again is a little off-putting. Like a baker who makes fantastic birthday cakes but insists on hiding chipotle peppers inside half of them. (except instead of a pepper its a....... well n/m)SimpleThunda said:
I don't think they're that terribly well written. At least not from a purely language based perspective.
It's happened to me a few times during the course of reading where a sentence or phrase he uses totally breaks my immersion into the story and I have to go make a coffee or something while having a bit of a grumble to myself before I can resume reading. One specific example I can remember was a character thinking of another character as having "a stick up his butt".
I don't know about the rest of you but to me that is such a thoroughly modern American phrase, it has no place in the mind of a medieval Westerosi. I think it took almost an hour for me to pick up the book again after that little gem. Your mileage may vary.
It's happened to me a few times during the course of reading where a sentence or phrase he uses totally breaks my immersion into the story and I have to go make a coffee or something while having a bit of a grumble to myself before I can resume reading. One specific example I can remember was a character thinking of another character as having "a stick up his butt".
I don't know about the rest of you but to me that is such a thoroughly modern American phrase, it has no place in the mind of a medieval Westerosi. I think it took almost an hour for me to pick up the book again after that little gem. Your mileage may vary.
I find this interesting, as before this everything was compared to Lord of the Rings.
It appears the torch has been passed
It appears the torch has been passed
Um... no. Not really. Fantasy has always been filled with hack writers, sure, but there are great ones out there as well, and plenty who are better than Martin. I wouldn't even include him in the top ten (though he is pretty good). Now, recommendation time!jademunky said:
The obvious master of fantasy is Tolkien. You've probably already read him, but he's legally required to be mentioned in every fantasy discussion. Most people judge him based solely on the Lord of the Rings, which is interesting, because though it is good, it's probably his worst book. The Hobbit and The Silmarillion are far better.
Obviously we still have Homer. A lot of people get intimidated by his work for some reason, but if you pick up the modern translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey, then they are VERY easy reads, and a lot of fun. On top of that we have all of Greek mythology, which is fantastic. You can also find Norse Mythology in two books called the Prose Eda and the Poetic Eda. Basically, read your mythology, some of the greatest stories of all time come from our ancestors. Research Ragnarok, it will blow your mind.
You also might want to read Dune. It's technically Sci-Fi, but it's literally Game of Thrones in space. In fact, I suspect that Martin ripped it off. It's got great dialogue, great characters, and all the political intrigue you love to read Martin for. If you like Game of Thrones, you WILL like Dune, I promise. It's an easy read, and it's a lot of fun.
Berserk. I saved the best for last. Berserk is, hands down, the best dark fantasy series ever written. It may be the greatest fantasy series ever written. It's much darker than Game of Thrones, but the writing is much better as well. If you read one fantasy series for the rest of your life, do yourself a favor and read Berserk. In fact, after reading Berserk, I couldn't finish Game of Thrones anymore. It just felt like a watered down fantasy series, or babies first dark fantasy.
I'll also say you should check out classic books, especially since most of your favorite books were probably influenced by them, even if you don't realize it. It saddens me that a lot of people dismiss classic literature because they thnk the books are boring. Most of them are really fun, and even funny. If you find a classic book that isn't entertaining then chuck it and find another classic book. They're cheap at the book store. They're all free on Project Gutenberg and Kindle.
Speaking as someone who has pretty much dropped reading fantasy altogether.
ASoIaF doesn't appeal to me at all. My fiance is really big into it, the books are reasonably well written but GRRM has fallen into the trap that so many genre writers have fallen into. Too fucking long and too many characters. This is not a short attention span thing. This about writing a tight narrative that doesn't drag out into infinity. When you have introduced so many characters that it is necessary to have family trees in your appendixes to remind your readers who the fuck these people are what you have is a bloated narrative. Some fat really needs to be trimmed here.
Also it is really, really depressing. The majority of the characters are so vile I cannot stand to read from their PoV. I used to read fantasy to forget about depressing reality not be reminded of it. He supposedly based this on the War of the Roses. Probably better for me to just read about that. Just as depressing without the baggage.
All of the above is a matter of taste. I prefer a tightly written plot without excessive exposition or sideplot diversions. This going into the inner workings of every noble family is just beyond tedious to me. Especially when I wish death to nearly all of the characters for either being out and out evil, criminally stupid, naive with way too much power or simply sadistic.
Only 2 or 3 of the "good" characters are not dumber than a bag of hammers so it's pretty hard to root for them too.
ASoIaF doesn't appeal to me at all. My fiance is really big into it, the books are reasonably well written but GRRM has fallen into the trap that so many genre writers have fallen into. Too fucking long and too many characters. This is not a short attention span thing. This about writing a tight narrative that doesn't drag out into infinity. When you have introduced so many characters that it is necessary to have family trees in your appendixes to remind your readers who the fuck these people are what you have is a bloated narrative. Some fat really needs to be trimmed here.
Also it is really, really depressing. The majority of the characters are so vile I cannot stand to read from their PoV. I used to read fantasy to forget about depressing reality not be reminded of it. He supposedly based this on the War of the Roses. Probably better for me to just read about that. Just as depressing without the baggage.
All of the above is a matter of taste. I prefer a tightly written plot without excessive exposition or sideplot diversions. This going into the inner workings of every noble family is just beyond tedious to me. Especially when I wish death to nearly all of the characters for either being out and out evil, criminally stupid, naive with way too much power or simply sadistic.
Only 2 or 3 of the "good" characters are not dumber than a bag of hammers so it's pretty hard to root for them too.
If it has indeed ruined fantasy, it's done so by becoming the biggest name in the genre right now. I hate A Song of Ice and Fire with a passion; I think it's banal, shallow, creepy, misogynistic, and fueled entirely by the grotesque sexual fantasies of a fourteen-year-old boy trapped in the body of a failed attempt to clone Santa Claus. I pretty much put George R. R. Martin in the same category as Frank Miller. They are the kings of relentlessly dark, morose, adolescent narrative monotone. I would absolutely love to return to a world where fantasy was allowed to be fun. Tolkien's worst work is miles beyond anything that Martin will ever make, and the same could be said of Frank Miller versus the vastly superior Grant Morrison.
I rather like your list. the Hobbit is indeed far better than the Lord of the Rings. Still *raising flameshield* not my favorite fantasy writer by any stretch. A lot of his work smacked of being like a tourist brochure of a fictional place. Still the Hobbit was a very enjoyable read.Fox12 said:
The Odyssey is great. Homer was brilliant and there is a reason this tale has been around for literally millenia.
Dune was fantastic. But I don't see nearly as many parallels between Dune and Game of thrones as I did between it and the true story of T.E. Lawrence, AKA Lawrence of Arabia. Swap out spice for oil, Fremen for Bedouin and the Turks and English for Atreites and Harkonnen and it's nearly a carbon copy.
I might dust off my reading glasses and check out Berserk. I'm not into the dark stuff but our tastes are close enough otherwise for me to give it a chance.
I will warn you that Berserk is technically a manga/anime, but don't let that turn you off. I'm pretty burned out on dark literature, but I would argue that Berserk pulls it off. It manages to be philosophical without being preachy, and it takes a lot of inspiration from classic literature, like Oedipus Rex and classic mythology. The characters are good too, and even the worst villains are sympathetic or relatable. I found that it had a more focused narrative than Game of Thrones, which tends to get off track. It's definitely worth looking into.jklinders said:
Yes, the genre is largely cheesy trash for children.jademunky said:
However! There are other good fantasy authors out there. Gene Wolfe, for one - try his Book of the New Sun, it's fantastic, even better than GoT, imo. Also try Neil Gaiman's Sandman comics series. And here in the world of video games, Dark Souls of course. There are people doing great things with the genre of fantasy, even if it is largely crap.
Heh. I've been having this problem ever since I was first exposed to Tolkien in my childhood. In fact, I was wary of trying ASOIAF (which I now love), precisely because of the issues you bring up, only with Tolkien as the source of comparison.
Fantasy's an odd genre: there are some absolute gems, but they're drowning in a sea of inferior Tolkien rip-offs and cliche-fests. No doubt we'll see a whole bunch of shoddy offerings "inspired" by ASOIAF in the next few years. Fantasy writers seem to have a tendency to latch on to what is successful, then mercilessly recreate it again and again, usually totally missing the point and nuance that made the original so great, until it's practically reduced to parody.
So basically, it's a lot like the AAA games industry
Fantasy's an odd genre: there are some absolute gems, but they're drowning in a sea of inferior Tolkien rip-offs and cliche-fests. No doubt we'll see a whole bunch of shoddy offerings "inspired" by ASOIAF in the next few years. Fantasy writers seem to have a tendency to latch on to what is successful, then mercilessly recreate it again and again, usually totally missing the point and nuance that made the original so great, until it's practically reduced to parody.
So basically, it's a lot like the AAA games industry
While I will admit a hell of a lot of fantasy is dross (they are the geek equivalent to penny harlequin romances for the most part) I do not consider GRRM as good enough to ruin fantasy for everyone. I consider him an aggressively average writer who got very popular off a style change (IE, writing a fantasy novel more like a historical documentary. The series barely registers as fantasy for me). There is a lot of better writing out there, though it may be a stylistic issue more than anything else that may disappoint you. I find GRRMs style very un-engaging, so I will not likely be able to help you find similar stuff.
If you want good stuff, you've got to search. A few fantasy books I enjoy:
Authors:
-Jim butcher (mainly the dresden files)
-Robin Hobb: her earlier books are more traditional, but she does good stuff, especially with characters.
Books:
-In the name of the wind (this series is quite excellent)
Again, I cant overstate the notion that this might be a STYLE rather than a quality issue. You might have more luck looking in "historical fiction" rather than fantasy.
As a side-note, I do NOT consider Tolkien as traditional fantasy (despite the long-standing association). He is mostly mythological (everything arcane, like the Silmarilion, tales of the lonely isles), some childrens work (the hobbit) and one influential series that is close to most traditional fantasy (LoTR, which I still find is more mythmaking). Fantasy has unfortunately become shorthand for a huge selection of different styles, which makes it hard to find the style you want.
If you want good stuff, you've got to search. A few fantasy books I enjoy:
Authors:
-Jim butcher (mainly the dresden files)
-Robin Hobb: her earlier books are more traditional, but she does good stuff, especially with characters.
Books:
-In the name of the wind (this series is quite excellent)
Again, I cant overstate the notion that this might be a STYLE rather than a quality issue. You might have more luck looking in "historical fiction" rather than fantasy.
As a side-note, I do NOT consider Tolkien as traditional fantasy (despite the long-standing association). He is mostly mythological (everything arcane, like the Silmarilion, tales of the lonely isles), some childrens work (the hobbit) and one influential series that is close to most traditional fantasy (LoTR, which I still find is more mythmaking). Fantasy has unfortunately become shorthand for a huge selection of different styles, which makes it hard to find the style you want.
Most books (and any media really) are bad, reading the good ones just makes the bad ones all that worst.
And it's also all about personal preference.
GRRM isn't the best, but if you like his work alot then it's easy to see books that aren't ASoIaF as bad.
And it's also all about personal preference.
GRRM isn't the best, but if you like his work alot then it's easy to see books that aren't ASoIaF as bad.
Eh. I mean, ASoIaF is good and all, but it's certainly not the be-all end-all of modern fantasy. There's several books & series I enjoy reading (and re-re-reading) more than it. The Pat Rothfuss's Kingkiller Chronicles, Sanderson's Mistborn & Stormlight Archives, The Wheel of Time, Jim Butcher's Codex Alera & Dresden Files...
There's plenty of non-dross fantasy, it's not just GRRM or crap.
There's plenty of non-dross fantasy, it's not just GRRM or crap.
First, I'ma just agree with everything mentioned on this list. Seriously some good stuff mentioned there.Fox12 said:
Second, I'm sad that no one mentioned The Death Gate Cycle by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman yet. 7 books in the series, some of the neatest world-building I've seen in a fantasy series.
Ooh, checking back I noticed the connection to the trope page of darkness-induced audience apathy. I think that was my primary reaction to the series.
Also, while I do enjoy david Edding's work, I consider him pretty traditional "dross" fantasy. It's the series that made me realise how utterly predictable most fantasy is.
I also enjoy Homer, a bit dubious on the dune series (it's not bad,I just havent gotten into it). Berserk is a decent manga, but it is needlessly stretched, like so many manga out there.
Also, while I do enjoy david Edding's work, I consider him pretty traditional "dross" fantasy. It's the series that made me realise how utterly predictable most fantasy is.
I also enjoy Homer, a bit dubious on the dune series (it's not bad,I just havent gotten into it). Berserk is a decent manga, but it is needlessly stretched, like so many manga out there.
I think the idea that an especially good example of a particular genre will forever destroy that genre is silly.
Lord of the Rings had some negative impact by having loads of people copy the surface elements of it rather than the real appeal of it (i.e. Elves and Dwarves rather than depth and a fleshed out interesting world) but overall was definitely a positive.
There will be loads of attempted copy-cats who just make very complicated fantasy and grim stories rather than deep ones with well fleshed out characters who define the plot (rather than follow the motions that the author wants to happen).
Overall it's a positive thing, genres evolve with their new master-works. There will always be shit but hopefully their will be more that inspire and advance the genre further. I also don't think there's any danger of more classic, less brutal, varieties of fantasy will die out because of Martin's success.
Don't expect everything to be good in the same way. I love the Chronicles of Narnia as well but they are good in an almost incomparably different way.
Lord of the Rings had some negative impact by having loads of people copy the surface elements of it rather than the real appeal of it (i.e. Elves and Dwarves rather than depth and a fleshed out interesting world) but overall was definitely a positive.
There will be loads of attempted copy-cats who just make very complicated fantasy and grim stories rather than deep ones with well fleshed out characters who define the plot (rather than follow the motions that the author wants to happen).
Overall it's a positive thing, genres evolve with their new master-works. There will always be shit but hopefully their will be more that inspire and advance the genre further. I also don't think there's any danger of more classic, less brutal, varieties of fantasy will die out because of Martin's success.
Don't expect everything to be good in the same way. I love the Chronicles of Narnia as well but they are good in an almost incomparably different way.
I still don't understand how people can think that RR Martin is a good writer. I compare his novels to children's fantasy and find his to be on the shorter end. Therefore, I think I will be of little specific use, however I found myself having similar problems after I read the Kingkiller Chronicle, by Patrick Rothfuss, and I would suggest to you that given a little time, that feeling will fade and you will be able to read fantasy again.