Has Japanese Media Changed?

[NihilSinLulz]

I've been on a oldies film kick lately, particularly Japanese oldies from the 50s and 60s.

I've noticed that dialogue for a lot of these films follows a philosophy of realism--that is its functional more-or-less everyday speak, with a lot of the narrative meaning being left to the cinematography, lighting and acting etc.

This style of filming seems completely opposite of the directorial choices of modern Japanese films (the few I've seen) and anime, particularly adult-aimed anime. Instead of functional dialogue, anime characters tend to monologue and go on tangents describing the works' themes rather than letting it be fleshed out organically by the shots, acting, etc etc.

What I'm wondering is why is there such a huge difference in style? Was there a change, and if so why?

I can understand the argument that they are two completely art forms, but then modern anime borrows a lot from the oldies in regards to character archetypes, so why is it so different in everything else?

 

[ItouKaiji]

When it comes to anime the thing you have to remember is animation is expensive. Even when you're talking about the big studios the budgets only cover so much, so if they can get away with not animating something they do it. Therefore you get a lot of characters telling you things instead of showing you. Especially when it comes to emotions and such. If you watch a lot of anime then you'll start to notice that the characters move as little as possible and this extends to facial expressions. Now of course there are always those big over the top facial expressions for when things get really moody or really comedic, but as a general rule anime tries to express as much as it can from its dialogue and voice acting which is why there's so much hammy voice acting as well. It's just cheaper to get the emotions through from the voice acting.

There was a good example from an older anime called Devil Man. A scene between the main character and his childhood friend. He'd been beat up and she wanted to treat him, when he tries to argue she just gives him this look that keeps him from talking back. Now, keep in mind this is an OVA so the budget is a bit more generous, but in most modern anime, instead of the look they'd have her yell at him for being hard headed, and the effect just isn't quite the same, because that single glace says so much more about their relationship than words ever good. Not that I recommend the Devil Man OVAs as they're quite boring.

So I guess my point would be when it comes to anime, the studios have become masters at limiting the amount of animation they actually do. They nuances of human interaction is lost a bit and is replaced with a lot of expository dialogue. Basically they do it backwards they tell, don't show whenever they can get away with it.

I can't really speak to Japanese films as much because most of the Japanese movies I watch are based on anime and I think it quite often shows how over the top anime voice acting can be as the actors can get very hammy. Although I think there's also a fundamental difference in Japanese acting than what is used in western films anyway.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

When it comes to anime the thing you have to remember is animation is expensive. Even when you're talking about the big studios the budgets only cover so much, so if they can get away with not animating something they do it. Therefore you get a lot of characters telling you things instead of showing you. Especially when it comes to emotions and such. If you watch a lot of anime then you'll start to notice that the characters move as little as possible and this extends to facial expressions. Now of course there are always those big over the top facial expressions for when things get really moody or really comedic, but as a general rule anime tries to express as much as it can from its dialogue and voice acting which is why there's so much hammy voice acting as well. It's just cheaper to get the emotions through from the voice acting.

There was a good example from an older anime called Devil Man. A scene between the main character and his childhood friend. He'd been beat up and she wanted to treat him, when he tries to argue she just gives him this look that keeps him from talking back. Now, keep in mind this is an OVA so the budget is a bit more generous, but in most modern anime, instead of the look they'd have her yell at him for being hard headed, and the effect just isn't quite the same, because that single glace says so much more about their relationship than words ever good. Not that I recommend the Devil Man OVAs as they're quite boring.

So I guess my point would be when it comes to anime, the studios have become masters at limiting the amount of animation they actually do. They nuances of human interaction is lost a bit and is replaced with a lot of expository dialogue. Basically they do it backwards they tell, don't show whenever they can get away with it.

I can't really speak to Japanese films as much because most of the Japanese movies I watch are based on anime and I think it quite often shows how over the top anime voice acting can be as the actors can get very hammy. Although I think there's also a fundamental difference in Japanese acting than what is used in western films anyway.

Partially true; it's not so much that animation is expensive as it is that anime is generally produced on a tiny budget. The big reason anime became such a big industry in Japan in the first place is because it's possible to inexpensively do things in animation that would be prohibitively expensive to do in live action. Take a look at Pacific Rim, for example. Huge budget live action movie that /finally/ managed to make giant robots in live action every bit as believable as the have been in animation since the 70's. Or maybe the 80's if you want to nitpick on animation quality. And it only took 30-40 years and millions of dollars, to get a whopping 2 hours of robots fighting, compared to the /days/ of it you'll get from one made for TV anime.

As for the rest, you may as well ask why Hollywood movies from that time period are so different from modern ones. There are a lot of cultural changes in a time period that big. Just in the last 20 years things have changed massively, both in American and Japanese TV. An anime from the 80's will be really different from one made today, just like an American TV show from the 80's will be different from one on TV right now. Different times, different products.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

In the early days of film-making in most any society, it seems that the people drawn to the medium are people interested in artistic expression.

You mean like how we started with deep, philosophical films like The Great Train Robbery and Frankenstein, but eventually got dumbed down to stuff like Chinatown and Raging Bull?

Sorry, I get trigger-happy around easy targets like that.

-

If you're looking for contemporary anime that refuse to tell you anything directly, you'll want to pay attention to Kunihiko Ikuhara - he did Revolutionary Girl Utena and Mawaru Penguindrum. The scriptwriter of Utena also made Utena again in 2010, only with giant robots and without the lesbians, and called it Star Driver. It was kind of awesome.

Neon Genesis Evangelion walks an interesting line between spelling out everything and telling nothing, which may be why it has such broad appeal. On the subject of Gainax, FLCL was...also a show. Hiroyuki Imaishi, who directed Gurren Lagann and the weirder episodes of FLCL, and is currently directly Kill la Kill, is jaw-droppingly transparent, and will have characters explain his shows' themes on a nearly per-episode basis. But no one notices, because, well, look at the shows he makes.

NISIOISIN is a light novel author, and wrote Bakemonogatari, Katanagatari, and the Zaregoto series, and his specialty is saying something (saying a lot of somethings) and meaning something else. The anime versions of the Monogatari series add a lot of watch value with all the, well, all the weird stuff in them. If I wanted to be pretentious, I would call it an "Impressionist anime", but I don't, so I won't. NISIOISIN can be a bit too anime for many people - including anime fans.

Enough examples of stuff, though.

"The art of limited animation" is the dubious legacy left behind for anime by Osamu Tesuka, who rather famously sold Tetsuwan Atom (Astro Boy) to networks below the cost of production so they would pick it up. Masterful studios like Madhouse can rise above this, and skilled directors like Akiyuki Shinbo can work around it, but at the end of the day it's there, for ill and - to a lesser extent - for good.

So there's definitely that, but I don't think that's the answer we're looking for, though. Ultimately, the tradition of anime is derived from manga. While there are enormous stylistic differences between manga and Western comics, they do share at least one significant similarity: dialogue that is fiercely 'on the nose'. This seems to be a tendency of YA material in general, which makes sense - it's the transitional state between children's literature and adult literature. If I can be forgiven for using this example, every book in the Twilight Series[/i] Saga is styled after a book from classic literature. You know how I know? Because Bella says so.

So. Conclusion time. Was there a change? Probably not. Is it a stylistic difference? Probably. Are there exceptions? Plenty. I just listed the most obvious ones. There are also a number of shows that are much more subtly subtle than the obvious subtlety of the things I mentioned (see what I did there?) - Madoka Magica comes to mind. Nonetheless, the exceptions are ultimately exceptions.

EDIT: Also what the guy above me said.

 

[Flutterguy]

This is new to me. Somehow I never thought of even looking at films of that period outside of the Americas. Hopefully I can make a point to watch some Asian ones, I am not a fan of the modern 50 blips per second in modern asian entertainment.

As far as the reasoning why, I've heard a theory. Addictive high paced entertainment was made the norm to 'sterilize' the masses. Increasing anti-social behavior and longing for impossible fantasy... a bit out there for sure. If something like that was the truth however, I wouldn't be too surprised.

Edit: If you are watching older movies and have not seen The Mummy(1932) or 2001:A space odyssey do so ASAP. Both were gigantic leaps for filming as art, and are just damn good movies, both are rather slow however.

Also 'The two faces of Dr.Jekyll' I seen recently. It portrayed Hyde as an immoral hedonist and the Dr as a drug addict slipping through phases of addiction. Looking into it now I see alot of poor reviews haha maybe my taste sucks.

 

[Kittyhawk]

I think that anime does get lazy in these stakes as you say. Few anime aim for anything of meaning or high art and entertainment. I guess while we have Miyazaki, Shinkai and now Studio Trigger, few bother stepping outside of the long established ways of doing things. Their view might be if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Such a pity because the anime industry is kind of broken, and needs change and repair, if its ever to regain its street cred.

Bad dialogue and stuff not making sense is how many like it. And because no one ever widely questions it, the bad just continues. These days I watch much less anime than I once did.

 

[Entitled]

The scriptwriter of Utena also made Utena again in 2010, only with giant robots and without the lesbians, and called it Star Driver.

Huh?

Star Driver.

without the lesbians

Are we talking about the same Star Driver here?

 

[Yopaz]

Japanese media has changed since the 50's? I doubt that, it's not like these things change over half a century...

Why even ask this question? Of course things change over time. You don't need to look back more than 10 years to see the trend different than it is now. This isn't just Japanese media, this is all over. The industry grows, the industry does a few things that work, build on that try to get more money and as they get more money they can make something new or in some cases, something that can be perceived as new enough to make people buy it.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

The scriptwriter of Utena also made Utena again in 2010, only with giant robots and without the lesbians, and called it Star Driver.

Huh?

Star Driver.

without the lesbians

Are we talking about the same Star Driver here?

Let's see, my memory of Star Driver is a bit rusty, but I recall the general theme being all the girls wanting to fuck Takuto and/or Sugata.

Oh, there were those girls, too, but they were there for like two episodes. That barely counts.

 

[Axolotl]

As far as the reasoning why, I've heard a theory. Addictive high paced entertainment was made the norm to 'sterilize' the masses. Increasing anti-social behavior and longing for impossible fantasy... a bit out there for sure. If something like that was the truth however, I wouldn't be too surprised.

Or technology improved to allow faster editing.

But hey why ake the boring answer when you can indulge a psychologically dubious conspiracy theory.

 

[NihilSinLulz]

I can certainly see this being a major factor as far as anime is concerned

I can't really speak to Japanese films as much because most of the Japanese movies I watch are based on anime and I think it quite often shows how over the top anime voice acting can be as the actors can get very hammy. Although I think there's also a fundamental difference in Japanese acting than what is used in western films anyway.

I'd say a big influence on modern Western acting has been the classic Japanese films so the fundamental difference arn't all that different.

I'd take a guess and say the explosion of anime into cultural dominance in Japan has changed how non-anime Japanese films are put together (at least the genre films).

Different times, different products.

My question is why. I am genuinely interested in the history behind the changes given that a lot of the anime tropes mentioned, could only be found in the silly schlok genre films.

If you're looking for contemporary anime that refuse to tell you anything directly

That's not my criticism. My criticism is the majority of dialogue in anime is straight descriptive. To be clear, there's nothing wrong with descriptive dialogue, even when it makes up the majority of a work. A modern Western example of it used well would be Cronenburg's Cosmopolis where the characters feel like they're straight up reading from a book to each other but that was a stylistic choice to purposely alienate the audience and hinder the audiences' empathy toward these people who live in the top 1%.

It seems however that anime creators are unable to do anything but descriptive dialogue.

This is new to me. Somehow I never thought of even looking at films of that period outside of the Americas. Hopefully I can make a point to watch some Asian ones, I am not a fan of the modern 50 blips per second in modern asian entertainment.

You really should. The Japanese classics influenced modern Western cinema to such a degree that would the classics, we wouldn't have out Spielbergs, Tarentinos, Leones, etc.

Even if you don't care about film history, just watch them cus' they're freakin' awesome.

Case and point, just check out this still image from a great lesser known Japanese classic The Ballad of Narayama (1958) and see this single picture is so pregnant with meaning.
http://filmint.nu/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/The-Ballad-of-Narayama-1958-4.jpg

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I can certainly see this being a major factor as far as anime is concerned

I can't really speak to Japanese films as much because most of the Japanese movies I watch are based on anime and I think it quite often shows how over the top anime voice acting can be as the actors can get very hammy. Although I think there's also a fundamental difference in Japanese acting than what is used in western films anyway.

I'd say a big influence on modern Western acting has been the classic Japanese films so the fundamental difference arn't all that different.

I'd take a guess and say the explosion of anime into cultural dominance in Japan has changed how non-anime Japanese films are put together (at least the genre films).

Different times, different products.

My question is why. I am genuinely interested in the history behind the changes given that a lot of the anime tropes mentioned, could only be found in the silly schlok genre films.

If you're looking for contemporary anime that refuse to tell you anything directly

That's not my criticism. My criticism is the majority of dialogue in anime is straight descriptive. To be clear, there's nothing wrong with descriptive dialogue, even when it makes up the majority of a work. A modern Western example of it used well would be Cronenburg's Cosmopolis where the characters feel like they're straight up reading from a book to each other but that was a stylistic choice to purposely alienate the audience and hinder the audiences' empathy toward these people who live in the top 1%.

It seems however that anime creators are unable to do anything but descriptive dialogue.

This is new to me. Somehow I never thought of even looking at films of that period outside of the Americas. Hopefully I can make a point to watch some Asian ones, I am not a fan of the modern 50 blips per second in modern asian entertainment.

You really should. The Japanese classics influenced modern Western cinema to such a degree that would the classics, we wouldn't have out Spielbergs, Tarentinos, Leones, etc.

Even if you don't care about film history, just watch them cus' they're freakin' awesome.

Case and point, just check out this still image from a great lesser known Japanese classic The Ballad of Narayama (1958) and see this single picture is so pregnant with meaning.
http://filmint.nu/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/The-Ballad-of-Narayama-1958-4.jpg

To really understand the why there, you just about need a PHD in a foreign culture. I mean, I am an American, absolutely love movies, and I couldn't begin to tell you why the acting is so different in movies from the 30's through, say, the 60's than it was in the late 60's through the 70's or early 80's, with another shift in line delivery coming in somewhere in the 80's. There may have even been another shift in there, between the way lines were delivered in the 80's and the way they are today. I'm not even sure where to begin to understand this stuff, aside from maybe asking a film studies professor for some tips -- although an anthropology professor may be a better starting point, when we're talking about tracking cultural changes over the last 60-ish years. I could explain a fair few things about why movies in various time periods are /visually/ different (for example, the modern explosion of Teal and Orange has to do with digital color correction, which is much easier and more precise than the old chemical methods of color timing, becoming cheap and commonly available), but not so much about the acting, even though I can see that there is a difference.

Basically, stuff changes over time, and the why can often be very, very complicated and hard to find an answer for.

 

[SuperSuperSuperGuy]

NISIOISIN is a light novel author, and wrote Bakemonogatari, Katanagatari, and the Zaregoto series, and his specialty is saying something (saying a lot of somethings) and meaning something else. The anime versions of the Monogatari series add a lot of watch value with all the, well, all the weird stuff in them. If I wanted to be pretentious, I would call it an "Impressionist anime", but I don't, so I won't. NISIOISIN can be a bit too anime for many people - including anime fans.

I'm curious: what is impressionism, and how does it apply to the Monogatari series? I'm actually a huge fan of the series, so your statement prompted me to look it up online. I'm not sure if I found a proper definition, though.

OT: Well, things change over time. Western media has changed significantly over the years in some regards. Maybe there has been a change in Japanese media, too. However, there have always been, and always will be, exceptions to the trends.

 

[FalloutJack]

Well, obviously there's a big difference from Rashomen and Rurouni Kenshin, so I guess the answer is...yes?

 

[Something Amyss]

I've been on a oldies film kick lately, particularly Japanese oldies from the 50s and 60s.

I've noticed that dialogue for a lot of these films follows a philosophy of realism--that is its functional more-or-less everyday speak, with a lot of the narrative meaning being left to the cinematography, lighting and acting etc.

This style of filming seems completely opposite of the directorial choices of modern Japanese films (the few I've seen) and anime, particularly adult-aimed anime. Instead of functional dialogue, anime characters tend to monologue and go on tangents describing the works' themes rather than letting it be fleshed out organically by the shots, acting, etc etc.

What I'm wondering is why is there such a huge difference in style? Was there a change, and if so why?

I can understand the argument that they are two completely art forms, but then modern anime borrows a lot from the oldies in regards to character archetypes, so why is it so different in everything else?

How far back are we talking?

See, I've been watching anime since the early 80s (my dad's a huge geek). A lot of those shows and movies had a ton of dialogue. Since we're talking a lot of 70s animation, maybe you're talking earlier, but I doubt it. even the recut stuff featured a lot of 'lip flaps'[footnote]If I might borrow a term from YGOA[/footnote] which would indicate the original characters were talking a lot.

Maybe it's become more prevalent, I don't have a large enough sample. The thing is, I'm not sure this was ever not a thing. Id you look at a lot of older anime, you'll see action scenes with like six frames of animation in a minute. this phenomenon has been parodied by Western media my entire life.

I'm less versed in Japanese film, but a couple of the Kurosawa flicks I've watched have a solid chunk of expositional dialogue.

 

[Product Placement]

Edit: Hmm... I don't know how the heck I ended up here but I was replying to a different topic. Ignore this post.

Can't really comment that much on Japanese media other then that I can certainly agree with seeing difference in Anime from the 80's/90's vs today.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

NISIOISIN is a light novel author, and wrote Bakemonogatari, Katanagatari, and the Zaregoto series, and his specialty is saying something (saying a lot of somethings) and meaning something else. The anime versions of the Monogatari series add a lot of watch value with all the, well, all the weird stuff in them. If I wanted to be pretentious, I would call it an "Impressionist anime", but I don't, so I won't. NISIOISIN can be a bit too anime for many people - including anime fans.

I'm curious: what is impressionism, and how does it apply to the Monogatari series? I'm actually a huge fan of the series, so your statement prompted me to look it up online. I'm not sure if I found a proper definition, though.

I read a little bit about impressionism in the philosophy class I'm taking (yes, really), so I sort of got a philosopher's definition of impressionism.

The point is that the Bakemonogatari anime (and Nisemonogatari to a slightly lesser extent, and everything after to a much lesser extent) is presented through a character lens. You could say you get the everything that happens as Araragi sees it, but it'd probably be more accurate to say everything is as he remembers it. That's why the series famously has no pedestrians on the sidewalks and no cars in the roads (he doesn't register them because they aren't important). About 50% of the show's weirdness - the show's visual weirdness, I mean - is a result of this, 30% is symbolism (depending on your definition of symbolism), and 20% is Akiyuki Shinbo screwing around.

Impressionist is, I suspect, not actually the right word, but it's at least close enough that I could write a final paper on it (and would, if I could). The basis of Impressionism, far as I know, is painting things as they appear, but this is specifically distinguished from how things actually are.

Wow, this paper is totally coming together. Dear Mrs. Professor-Person, please assign a paper that I can twist to cover this subject.

 

[HardkorSB]

What I'm wondering is why is there such a huge difference in style? Was there a change, and if so why?

Because it's a new generation of people making these things.
Look at the US media from 50's and 60's and compare them to the current ones, a lot of differences as well.
Also, I don't know if you've noticed but life in general has changed a lot since the 50's/60's, not just in Japan but all over the world.

 

[Nickolai77]

I think that anime does get lazy in these stakes as you say. Few anime aim for anything of meaning or high art and entertainment. I guess while we have Miyazaki, Shinkai and now Studio Trigger, few bother stepping outside of the long established ways of doing things.

Bear in mind that perhaps the majority of anime is aimed at a teenage audience- It's not going to be Shakespeare for that reason. I can however think of many, many animes which are certainly artsy, most obviously Ghost in a Shell. If you looked at the proportion of "high art" in anime and compared it to other genres of entertainment I don't think anime is any less intelligent.

 

[NihilSinLulz]

Bear in mind that perhaps the majority of anime is aimed at a teenage audience- It's not going to be Shakespeare for that reason. I can however think of many, many animes which are certainly artsy, most obviously Ghost in a Shell. If you looked at the proportion of "high art" in anime and compared it to other genres of entertainment I don't think anime is any less intelligent.

I agree that Ghost in the Shell would fall clearly under great art (its actually a person favourite of mine), but its suffers pretty badly from overly descriptive dialogue. Compare it to the dialogue economy shown in Blade Runner or eXisTenZ (which also cover the themes of transhumanism and the meaning of metaphysics in a technologically advanced world) to see what I mean.

Which makes me wonder if this relates to changes in the education system. The modern Japanese education system is extremely didactic- teachers tend to lecture at children rather than let them discover things on their own. After school students often go to cram schools, where they get lectured at again by poorly-paid workers with company textbooks. The notion of passive absorption of information is so commonplace here that I have to train some of my classes to actually move their mouths and vocalize in response to my asking a question- they seem to think all questions asked by a teacher are rhetorical.

So maybe it's not surprising at all that so much anime targeting the young operates in exactly the same manner.

Damn that's a fascinating fact. I doubt its the reason for the shift, but it may explain why its become so pervasive and little is being done to change it.