Has the 'X-com reboot approach' ever worked?

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FFHAuthor

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To point out something interesting in this thread, I'm seeing the change of what the term 'reboot' and 're-imagine' mean through the thread. To help matters I'm just going to throw out the definitions and examples just so we're all on the same page with this discussion, and add a couple more that might be relevant here.


Reboot; start over again from the beginning.
Example: The new Star Trek movie. Restarts the entire series from the beginning with a time-travel bit thrown in for good measure to create an alternate Timeline. The Cast, Setting and story are the same, but you have the ability to sculpt your own series.
Reason: Normally done to increase the Fan base and make something more accessible to a wider audience so they don't have to delve into thirty years of back story to enjoy something.

Re-imagine; changing the core principles of something.
Example: Fallout 3. Changes the style of the originals with a completely open world FPS RPG system. You're taking the general setting and changing how you're interacting with the game itself, and also the tone and style of how you're interacting with it, gone is the whimsical tounge in cheek black humor and it's a much grittier and realistic setting.
Reason: Usually the product of the 'hey, I liked the originals, but let's make them better' train of thought. It can work.

Modernization; To bring up to modern standards of Graphics and gameplay.
Example: Doom. The game setting and style are the same, and the only chnages are bringing the game up to date with everything we expect from modern FPS games when it comes to graphics, physics, and story-line.
Reason: People liked the original, so you keep the game the same and just make it better using the better tools you have access to. Duke Nukem is a very prominent example of this train of thought and the pitfalls of it.

Rip off; To buy the rights to something just so you can use the name for recognition.
Example: Starship Troopers. The Book and the Movie have only two things in common, the character names and the Title. Next to nothing about that movie had anything to do with the Book, including moments where you start thinking 'they might actually include that excellent scene here...' and then your hopes are dashed in horrific Hollywood fashion (The knife throwing sequence.)
Reason: A developer, or film maker has such low expectations for their movie, they decide to cash in on a popular and beloved story or film so that they can bolster their own mediocre sales in the short term.


XCOM falls rather firmly in the Rip off category I think, simply because the developers themselves have displayed a total disdain for the original source material in all it's forms. From declaring that Strategy games aren't modern, to dismissing the original setting, gameplay style, the nature of the threat and the time period for it, to including aspects of the original game in positions of pure irrelevance (The Time Units naming of your action points). The Developers wanted to bolster their sales, so they took the X-Com name to gain the attention of a fan base. If you released that game under another title, no-one would have any reason to think it was anything like X-Com. Just like with the Starship Troopers example above. Change the title and the names of the characters and settings, and nobody would think it was related to Robert Hienlien's work.

You take the name of the original story when you know that your're going to be inescapably close to the original and could face claims of copyright infringement. XCOM doesn't have that problem.
 

Juventus

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ninja gaiden games went from being 2d side scrollig action to 3d fast and furious action game.

also the metroid prime games, from the metroid 2d games.

also mass effect 1 to mass effect 2.
 

Scow2

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FFHAuthor said:
Re-imagine; changing the core principles of something.
Example: Fallout 3. Changes the style of the originals with a completely open world FPS RPG system. You're taking the general setting and changing how you're interacting with the game itself, and also the tone and style of how you're interacting with it, gone is the whimsical tounge in cheek black humor and it's a much grittier and realistic setting.
Reason: Usually the product of the 'hey, I liked the originals, but let's make them better' train of thought. It can work.
I strongly disagree with this. Fallout 3 was made in almost the exact same style as Fallout 1. The tone and style are all there. I don't see the "Whimsical tongue-in-cheek black humor" in Fallout everyone keeps talking about, aside from the occasional "Easter Egg" you stumble across when exploring.

Actually, Fallout has more whimsical Black Humor than Fallout 1, with characters such as the ever-cheerful Moira Brown, the hypocritical over-enthusiastic Optimus Liberty Prime, The G.O.A.T. exam, Vault 101's "Andy" (A "Mr. Gutsy"-model robot disguised as a "Mr. Handy"-model, and the resulting carnage), the over-the-top atrocities of Vault-Tech, the Church of Atom, the nature of President John Henry Eden, Nuclear cars, Tenpenny and Mr. Burk. Sherriff/Mayor Simmons and the Robo-Deputy, the crazy pair believing themselves to be a Comic Book hero and Villain, anything involving Ants, greater incentive to take the "Bloody Mess" perk... The list goes on and on and on.

Also... on the Starship Troopers example, the movie was a Satire/Parody of the book meant to eviscerate the themes of that particular piece of literature through Reducio ad Absurdium.
 

Atmos Duality

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Yes, it's worked.
And it's also failed spectacularly.

It's interesting how this topic has revolved primarily around Fallout 3 and Human Revolution, yet one of these things doesn't really belong.

Fallout 3 is essentially a genre-reboot of the Fallout series. So it fits the topic.

But Deus Ex: Human Revolution is a direct PREQUEL; not a reboot. You can't reboot something into the original continuity; because that defeats the point of rebooting it in the first place!
(Also: for the most part, Human Revolution preserved, and expanded upon, the gameplay elements that made the original Deus Ex GOOD rather than just paving over them with marketable cliche's. It isn't perfect, but it's in the right direction, at least for gameplay purposes.)

And that's my problem with the reboot of X-Com; why call it XCOM if it isn't X-Com? There's a difference between expanding a concept, taking it in a new direction, and then there's scrapping EVERYTHING but the name and starting over with marketable garbage.

This is the ultimate goal of the industry: To get as many people as they can to buy into this "Push button, take pellet" mentality so they don't have to try. If you're still among those who thinks that profit-potential alone determine what should make a game, then this is the future for you: The same goddamn game, repeated to the day you die.
 

AlternatePFG

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qazcake said:
Does bioshock count?
Well, there's a difference between spiritual successor and reboot. BioShock takes a lot of elements from System Shock, but it's not like it's in the same series.

And I think some System Shock fans (Not one of them, haven't played the games myself) would disagree about BioShock being a worthy successor.
 

BloatedGuppy

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AlternatePFG said:
qazcake said:
Does bioshock count?
Well, there's a difference between spiritual successor and reboot. BioShock takes a lot of elements from System Shock, but it's not like it's in the same series.

And I think some System Shock fans (Not one of them, haven't played the games myself) would disagree about BioShock being a worthy successor.
It's a worthy spiritual successor, yeah. System Shock was the slightly better and more revolutionary (and under-appreciated) series, but Bioshock really did borrow a lot of core elements.

To be fair, Bioshock is more of a faithful remake of System Shock than XCOM is of X-Com.
 

Ragsnstitches

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The_root_of_all_evil said:
Ragsnstitches said:
Whats more, in a free roam adventure game, FPS/TPS is a little more special as it allows for the finer details to get emphasised.
Taking XCOM for a moment:
Do you think the terror of a Chrysalid invasion will be there?
Do you think mind-controlling other aliens will be in there?
Do you think juggling the various countries chance of being invaded will be in there?
Do you think the fully destructive environments will be there?
Do you think sending the tanks out will be there?
Do you think things like the blaster bomb will be there?

Do you think you'll actually "care" if one of your people gets killed?

These are all staples of X-Com that appear to be nowhere in XCOM.

Equally, all of the staples of Syndicate (chest-nukes, clones) seem to be missing apart from the Persuadotron - which is being amped up to the Sonic Screwdriver stage of being able to do anything.

Fallout 3 acted as a big brush over the original IP. As did Transformers - effectively producing two IPs. Both XCOM and the remade Syndicate could have their names swapped with little difference apart from the setting - and also rebranded as Call Of Duty: Alien Invasion or Call of Duty: Cyber Invasion.

That makes an extremely worrying thought for any other IP that isn't an FPS now, because it soon might be "reimagined" as one.

Sabrewulf, Ant Attack, Monty on the Run, Blagger....Sonic?
Well I never played the old X-com, so I can't say anything against that. I also didn't play Syndicate.

But...

How can you tell me or anyone for that matter, what the new XCOM and syndicate have/don't have? As far as I know, very little has been revealed about them, especially the latter since it was only announced around a fortnight ago. All I can find in terms of details is a 20 minute early build demo of XCOM and a few promotional screens for Syndicate.

As for your comment on Fallout 3. 2 IP's were not created... at least not officially, your point of view not withstanding either. Same goes for Transformers, but if you want to argue this, I can say that Transformers is actually 4 IP's (Toy line which came first, Cartoons which followed, Films which followed long after that and the various Games released related to and unrelated to established canon). Fallout 3 would be 4 or 5 IP's. The first 2 games (3 too if you were to be official) the 2 spin off games from 2, Brotherhood of Steel, that graphic novel that was released prior to new vegas and New Vegas and 3 (if we were to take your point of view). But that's bogus right? They are all different views on the same universe... OFFICIALLY They are not different IP's, but 1 IP in different garments.

Star Wars is an IP. Everything with the label and that has been officially accepted, is part of the Star Wars IP. No amount of debating the prequels to the original, Force Unleased to Jedi Knight, Force Commander to Empire at War, will change this.

Fallout 3 is the official sequel to 3, and no you can't say that Van Buren is the true sequel, since it's a dead project that only had a boring beta demo released. F3 does not overwrite past events, it does not rewrite the canon... it adds to it. Whats more, Bethesda planned for the flak and even set it on the opposite end of the country from Fallout 1 and 2, to minimise toes been stepped on. It's possible we can go back to California in the future for more Fallouts, but I doubt it. It's canon has already been anchored down and now we go elsewhere to see how the rest of the world (read: america) has faired. It is the same IP...

Ultimately, no matter what the devs do to XCOM, Syndicate, future Fallouts etc. it doesn't change anything. If you don't like the change, don't buy into it. Play the classics as they won't be obliterated just to accomadate the new comers. If you want to bastardise the new games and dismiss them, that's you're perogative. If you want new games from your favourite series to return unblemished and uncorrupted by modern fancy FX, QTEs, Streamlined menues and lobotomised spreadsheets...

then keep dreaming.
 
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Ragsnstitches said:
Well I never played the old X-com, so I can't say anything against that. I also didn't play Syndicate.
So...you can't really argue for or against them, can you? Really?
But...

How can you tell me or anyone for that matter, what the new XCOM and syndicate have/don't have?
Pretty simply.

Chrysalid invasions would be impossible in an FPS. A one-shotting monster that sprints at you, and then kills your entire team? Nah.
Mind Control? Nah. Couldn't be done effectively in an FPS.

See, you don't need to see evidence of what has been done to understand what CAN'T be done.
As for your comment on Fallout 3. 2 IP's were not created... at least not officially, your point of view not withstanding either.
At least 3. Fallout was originally based on GURPS until that fell through.

And as for the rest of your points, you're just trotting out the party line - which we know is wrong because most of the IPs directly contradict each other. There's a main IP and sub IPs (nominally called "What-ifs")


What you fail to understand, perhaps deliberately, is that the main IP becomes the re-make - and all future versions (see Fortress-craft being NOT based on Minecraft) come from that.

That's parasitical laziness, and I'll fight that crap wherever and whenever I see it.

If you're going to re-do an IP, remember what the IP is about. Otherwise, leave it the hell alone.
 

Ragsnstitches

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The_root_of_all_evil said:
Ragsnstitches said:
Well I never played the old X-com, so I can't say anything against that. I also didn't play Syndicate.
So...you can't really argue for or against them, can you? Really?
But...

How can you tell me or anyone for that matter, what the new XCOM and syndicate have/don't have?
Pretty simply.

Chrysalid invasions would be impossible in an FPS. A one-shotting monster that sprints at you, and then kills your entire team? Nah.
Mind Control? Nah. Couldn't be done effectively in an FPS.

See, you don't need to see evidence of what has been done to understand what CAN'T be done.
As for your comment on Fallout 3. 2 IP's were not created... at least not officially, your point of view not withstanding either.
At least 3. Fallout was originally based on GURPS until that fell through.

And as for the rest of your points, you're just trotting out the party line - which we know is wrong because most of the IPs directly contradict each other. There's a main IP and sub IPs (nominally called "What-ifs")


What you fail to understand, perhaps deliberately, is that the main IP becomes the re-make - and all future versions (see Fortress-craft being NOT based on Minecraft) come from that.

That's parasitical laziness, and I'll fight that crap wherever and whenever I see it.

If you're going to re-do an IP, remember what the IP is about. Otherwise, leave it the hell alone.
IP = Intellectual Property. Bethesda owns both the Copyright and Trademark for the fallout universe and it's logo... Interplay SOLD their Fallout IP. Unless Bethesda allows another studio to independantly work on a Fallout project unsupervised with full creational freedom, then there is only 1 IP. It does not matter who ever made Fallout 1 and 2 or their spin offs. Why? Because Bethesda bought the rights to it.

It is not my opinion, it's legal fact. You do not, apparrently, know what IP is. If I managed to buy someone elses own property legally, then I can do whatever I want to it... canon and context have no bearing on an IP, even if they are the properties being protected by the IP. If your going to argue a point... don't use the wrong terms. What you want to say is Bethesda strayed too far away from the accepted formula and this deviation has split the universe SUBJECTIVELY.

Oh and FortressCraft and MineCraft are 2 seperate IP's... made by 2 different teams who own their own trademarks and copyrights. Unless Mojang unjustifiably sues the FortressCraft devs, this will remain so. Not similar at all to Fallout 1, 2 or 3 since Bethesda now owns ALL of them under 1 IP and did not copy or re-make anything.

Lastly, to quote you again:

The_root_of_all_evil said:
Taking XCOM for a moment:
Do you think the terror of a Chrysalid invasion will be there?
Do you think mind-controlling other aliens will be in there?
Do you think juggling the various countries chance of being invaded will be in there?
Do you think the fully destructive environments will be there?
Do you think sending the tanks out will be there?
Do you think things like the blaster bomb will be there?

Do you think you'll actually "care" if one of your people gets killed?

These are all staples of X-Com that appear to be nowhere in XCOM.
You claim these are Staples? HA! I guess I do know more about this then I thought. The staple of X-COM waned as far back as Apocalypse (Mythos, the original team). So much so they made a completely different game afterwards called X-COM INTERCEPTOR (Micropose who also made a decent spin off "Terror of the Deep") in an attempt to revitalise the series but mortally wounded it instead, ultimately dieing in the hands of Hasbro after Enforcer.

The series was shamed and died long ago, 2k is rebooting it, not rewriting it, they are leaving the canon of the classics and playing to their FPS strenghts. You automatically stand to defend the 2 solid games released by Mythos and Micropose, but neglect their failing success in Apocalypse and the dire Interceptor and Enforcer. Why is that?

Nothing changes with a reboot. They even respectively altered the name to distinguish the 2. The old games will remain as they were back then (though sullied by Interceptor and Enforcer which kept the namesake), all you need to do is reinstall them. Fact is that formula failed a good while back, same for Fallout, and these so called parasites (bethesda for the moment) revitalised the respective series and brought it into a generation who would have never seen it otherwise.
 
Feb 13, 2008
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Ragsnstitches said:
IP = Intellectual Property. Bethesda owns both the Copyright and Trademark for the fallout universe and it's logo... Interplay SOLD their Fallout IP.
Nope, you don't get it. IPs do not exist legally. They're a collection of ideas given form by the "look and feel", hence the "look and feel" copyright established by Microsoft.

XCOM has the name but not the IP. Fallout has the name and the IP. Fallout 3 altered the IP, so that a game based around Fallout 2 could not be sued under the IP for Fallout 3.

HA! I guess I do know more about this then I thought.
You've never played it - I've played and reviewed it. All of your whimsical anecdotes mean nothing. And your attitude is rather appalling - something that shows off how badly you treat the IP.
You automatically stand to defend the 2 solid games released by Mythos and Micropose, but neglect their failing success in Apocalypse and the dire Interceptor and Enforcer. Why is that?
Please do not attribute to me things I haven't said or done.

Nothing changes with a reboot.
Now you're just talking nonsense.

a generation who would have never seen it otherwise.
http://store.steampowered.com/sub/964/?snr=1_7_7_151_150_1

Complete nonsense. You've not even played the original and you're chastising it for not being up to date. I humbly suggest you take your nose out of whatever wiki page you used to copy/paste from and actually look at the history, the code or even play the damn game.