Hate

[Vault101]

TL;DR: hundreds of people put time and money into pleasing you, so maybe you should appreciate the good things for once instead of holding a grudge over every little thing that ever pisses you off. At the very least it's healthier for you and the community.

while I dont agree with anti consumer things (*cough*dablo3)

I do think people need to calm down...but I also think its a natural thing..it feels good, to hate, to complain, to feel angry

 

[Vault101]

Games are just announced, you don't know anything about them and you can find people bitching, crying and hating on the internet. Using falls arguments, which they know are falls, just to "make" their point.

Ive never understood why people work themselfs into a frensy...what ever happned to just "wait and see" instead of "GAAAEEHHHH!! DUMBING DOWN!!!AGGGGGHHHHHHH"

 

[BloatedGuppy]

And referring someone who makes excuses or justifications for the actions and decisions of a third party, dismisses criticisms of those actions as "attacks," and falls back on the schoolyard logic of "but $OTHER_GROUP does $OTHER_THING, and that's even worse!" as an apologist for that third party isn't, either.

I'm not sure indicating that a corporation exists to make money is any of those things though, and I can't understand how this particular nugget of information constantly startles the denizens of this forum like the opening of an umbrella startles a herd of fainting goats. If mice were always eating your food, and I told you "Yeah mice will do that, they'll eat your food", would I be a mouse apologist? It's just an acknowledgement of the way these things work. This is not a phenomenon unique to gamers and video gaming, and if people want to reshape the way corporations function in the world that's a conversation best taken to the religion and politics board.

 

[Paladin2905]

OP: I'd posit that the things you're seeing are perhaps a logical progression of the increased hype surrounding games and their production. The more people build it up, whether by the marketing department's will or in their minds, the more annoyed they will be when it doesn't conform to their existing views.

Add to this that games are a massive time sink, with decent player investment due to the interactivity present in the medium. This alone makes disruptions between people's idealized idea and the finished product more jarring to them.

This all being said, I don't think any of this excuses some of the greater excesses of the community. I do think people need to tone down the rhetoric a lot when discussing games, too often a good point with reasonable discussion value is killed quick by people jumping on it too hard.

 

[malestrithe]

Games are just announced, you don't know anything about them and you can find people bitching, crying and hating on the internet.

Not just games. I remember this happening pretty much everywhere on the Internet. I remember people have hate for pretty much everything Lord of the Rings until they saw it. Same with pretty much any comic book movie.

 

[Dogstile]

Why not distrust? Have they shown that trusting them is a good idea yet or are we still being fucked over?

*looks over paper at diablo 3 drm*

Oh right. Distrust away. *sips tea*

 

[Olas]

TL;DR: hundreds of people put time and money into pleasing you, so maybe you should appreciate the good things for once instead of holding a grudge over every little thing that ever pisses you off. At the very least it's healthier for you and the community.

I personally love hatred and find it disgusting that you would attack one of the best, most wonderfully motivating emotional forces that exists. You know why the lightbulb was invented? Because people hated the dark. I love hating things, and when I hate people it's nice to know that they hate me back.

To hear you bash hate like that really cooks my goose. First you attack hate, then you expect me to read a Dostoyevsky-long post, and you defend Halo 4 and the Me3 ending.

THAT'S IT (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ I HATE YOU PHLAKES, YOU BASTARD!!!!! JUST THE THOUGHT OF YOU GIVES MY MIDDLE FINGER A BONER!!!

....Whew, that felt good. Thanks for for that, man. Nothing personal.

but seriously, chill out.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

So I should send flowers to developers for making games that I don't like that I paid full price for?

 

[shrekfan246]

but seriously, chill out.

As much as your post made me laugh, I think that final line was Phlakes' entire point. The vocal minority of gamers don't know how to "seriously, chill out" and will get worked up over every little thing, to the point where the legitimate complaints get completely glossed over because people spend too much time bitching about how Sonic's eyes are a different color.

 

[The Heik]

viva la snip

I'm thinking that you've forgotten something important about how positive and negative emotions work in people. Emotions represent a facet of your wants and needs. If those requirements are no yet fulfilled, then we expend effort trying to fulfill them, and as such are far more noticeable in the act. However once they are fulfilled, then no more effort is required.

In the context of games, if we get a good game, then we don't need to ask for a good game anymore as we are content with what we have. But if we are given a game that has not lived up to what we'd expected or been told, then we will keep asking for a good game. It's why negative reactions are far more easily observed by others as the reacters are still expending energy in hopes of achieving their goals.

A good example of this can be seen by comparing two generally recent release: the aforementioned Mass Effect 3 and Skyrim. Now when Skyrim came out, the reaction to it was a generally positive one. People liked what they'd gotten. The "needs" they had were sated with it so they did need to keep on asking for more. But Mass Effect in contrast failed in the task of appeasing these requirements. People had been promised certain things and these things did not happen, so of course they would call foul.

So really it's more a case of "upset people are louder". Hate is not all we have, it's simply easier to observe than happiness.

 

[jklinders]

I'm not going to read that wall of text. Sorry, but I know there is a way your point can be condensed to finer point than this.


I did skim it though. What can I say? Some gamers, like in all communities are vocal and uncouth. Vocal and uncouth people are...vocal and uncouth. If that is what you are going to look for that is all you are going to see. The problem is not with the gaming community. It is not filled with "hatred and distrust." Saying it is in such a blanket manner implies that there is no civil discussion to be found anywhere. This is simply not true.

"Hundreds of people" are not "working to make us happy." They are working to make money, make themselves happy and maybe if we are very luck, make s happy too.

People don't like change, they will ***** about it and the ruder people will be rude about it. It is no different in gaming than anywhere else. I personally am neutral to it until I have seen the result firsthand.

At the end of the day, as a paying customer I have a right and an obligation to make my voice heard when something happens I don't like. How can a game studio know what I am looking for if I do not tell them. This is not license to be a ***** about it, but I will not stand silently by and allow anti-consumer actions, or poor quality go unchallenged when I know the studio can do better.

Maybe I am being a bit of ***** by pointing this out, but how is the histrionic warblings of the worst of of the notoriously wretched Halo fanbase being applied to the gaming community at large? I'm a little confused here.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Spoiler

So I wrote a little thing and figured I might as well put it up here too. And yes, I know it's massive, there's a very succinct TL;DR at the bottom but obviously it's very oversimplified.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

There is something deeply wrong with the video game industry right now. Well, as I imagine you yelled from a soapbox while gesticulating wildly after reading that, there are several. But there's one that's become very, very apparent and has had a massive effect on the community, including me and many other people I've talked to. So it's only fitting that this issue comes from the community itself.

Yes, you, in the general sense, the majority (or vocal minority) of the online gaming community, are a part of something fundamentally flawed. You should know what I'm talking about already. Now a quick bit of clarification because someone will be that guy, when I say "gaming community" or "you" or "the audience," please don't go out of your way to ignore the figurativeness and be that guy. The specific group of people I'm talking about will hopefully be apparent. Alright then.

The gaming community is based on hate and distrust.

Go to any forum or site comments or even people in real life, and look for reactions to any upcoming game. Taking one off the top of my head right now, it might be a good idea to look at Halo 4, since it, unfortunately or not, has a very diverse hate-base. Let's start off with a few quotes, taken from a variety of online communities. [sic]s are left out because I can't be bothered with forum posts-

"They can't just let the damn series die can they?"

"Instant respawns, a perk that lets you see through walls, powerful weapons drop on the map in random position, class loadouts.... Its just not Halo anymore. Halo is dead."

"It's fine to judge mechanics on how they function in the system but Halo that doesnt feel like Halo is still a dissapointment."

"I guess if you like everything being changed to the Call of Duty style of multiplayer and gameplay, it's alright. Just to simply milk the cash cow that is first person shooters right now, instead of being innovative."

One thing that's important to note is that, as you probably know, Halo 4 has not been released yet (at least as I'm writing, you might be reading this from the future). No gameplay footage has been released outside of short clips from trailers. No press, as far as we know, have gotten their hands on the game. And people are declaring, as you've seen, that the entire series is "ruined forever." Now, I'd rather not get into the psychology of it since that would take another whole article, but these people are obviously being irrational and heavily biased. If you don't see that, you are too. But I don't mean to say that those people are wrong and I'm right because I'm so obviously perfect and not biased at all, I'm talking about awareness here. But again, that's an entirely different article.

See, irrationality and bias is everywhere and they're accepted parts of life. The problem is when irrationality becomes common, or even worse, constantly expected. As I said earlier, this isn't typical overreaction, this is a widespread mindset that's been in the community for much too long to be considered a passing phase. And it's dangerous.

But I do have to say that it is somewhat justified to be cautious when following the industry today. Video games are young and even the biggest publishers don't know exactly how to handle it all so we get a lot of unsavory tactics and actual disappointments. I repeat- it's justified to be cautious. There's a difference between being hateful and being cautious.

Right now there's a very strong "us vs. them" thought pattern. Some people seriously and honestly believe that developers and publishers are actively trying to antagonize their consumers, and these sorts of conspiracies end up becoming rumors, which end up becoming those little thoughts in your head that pop back up again when that part of your brain is stimulated again, and when they pop back up in enough people at the same time they can become actual beliefs. You would have a hard time trying to find anyone who trusts a developer outside of the one(s) they might follow (or, as the gaming community likes to say, the ones that they're a fanboy of). Or as what's happening with Halo 4 or Hitman Absolution or what will definitely be happening with the new Gears of War that was recently announced, people who were "fanboys" of the developer will go into RUNIED FOREVER mode and claim that they'll boycott the game the second something seems to go against their personal views of what makes Franchise X Franchise X.

Although I might be a bit behind the times there. The boycott phase seems to be over now, after the word lost all its meaning through overuse and consistent failure to actually follow through. Now we're starting to get into a similar phase with petitions. Whenever a group of people hear or see something they don't like, someone will go to change.org and make a petition either asking or demanding that the developer make some change to please them. Just recently there was a petition regarding DLC for Dark Souls. But not just any little DLC issue. From what I could find out, some DLC had been announced for PC and there was an active "no comment" on its availability for consoles, along with an acknowledgement of the console players' interest in it. In someone's mind this constituted a preemptive petition rather than trust or patience (UPDATE: It's recently been announced that the DLC will be coming for consoles, rendering the petition completely unnecessary.)

Now, I don't mean to say that voicing your opinion is a bad thing. If you honestly think that a decision will be detrimental to the game or series or audience, you have every right and reason to say it. Where the line is drawn is when that gets into demands.

I guess I'll have to get into Mass Effect 3 now. I was hoping to avoid it but it might be one of the best examples of consumers putting themselves against the developer/publisher. I know no one wants to keep hearing about it, so I'll keep it short.

The game that was released was the game that was released. The ending to that game was made for a reason and if there was a significant internal disagreement it wouldn't have made it through production. The audience has every right to be upset over it if they disliked it. They have, however, absolutely no right to allege that Bioware is obligated to change it.

And that's where the hostility started. Almost instantly, Bioware became a symbol of betrayal. EA became in people's minds a machine fueled by fat men in suits that sucks in money and spits out solidified disrespect. The reviewers that didn't follow the majority/vocal minority's opinion (something along the lines of "Mass Effect 3 is a betrayal of everything the fans ever felt and the ending retroactively ruins the entire franchise and nullifies anything positive about all three games", and that could very well be a direct quote) were seen as machines that suck in money and spit out high scores. And the fans saw themselves as victims of oppression.

I suppose that's natural for people, though, especially in groups. And especially with the "gamer" demographic. There's always been a strong disposition against "the man". And whoever is unlucky enough to anger their audience becomes "the man" for a short while until someone else makes the same mistake. It becomes a cycle of constantly redirected hate, driven in waves or irrationality- Developer 1 files a lawsuit against pirates and the community shifts their hate toward them, then a month later that hate has settled and Publisher 1 announces that Franchise X will be getting another installment, so the hate shifts toward them, then a month later that hate has settled and Developer 2 announces that their game won't have dedicated servers so the hate shifts toward them, and so on.

It's childish. And the gaming community needs to grow up eventually. We can keep up this cycle forever. It's damn well possible that the majority of online discussion will always be about how Franchise X has been ruined forever or how Publisher 1 is the worst company that has ever existed or how Developer 2 so obviously sold out. It's possible that the minority of conspirators and their ridiculous theories (reviewers taking bribes, or my personal favorite, publishers plant moles in forums years ahead of time to clean up PR messes) will start to leak into the community's thoughts until people start to forget that this is an entertainment industry.

There needs to be a massive shift in perspective here (and no, I don't think I can actually do anything to affect that even with you reading this right now). Developers, publishers, and game reviewers are all people. Never forget that. They all went to school and had Christmas or whatever holiday with their parents, they all have their own morals and personal beliefs, and they're all relatively intelligent. They know what the community thinks. They're not blind. When a reviewer gives a popular game a 6/10 they know what they're in for. When something like Mass Effect 3 happens, and they gave it a 9/10, they know the accusations that'll be thrown around. When a publisher/developer gives a game DRM, they know that there'll be backlash and they know everything that's been said in angry forum rants. And at the end of the day, they're giving something to be entertained by. Very, very few people will be in the industry if they aren't passionate about it. Yes, even the millionaire CEOs who seem so "out of touch". This is a time where people need to open their view a little bit. Almost every single complaint is from the eyes of the consumer only, and only takes into account the consumer's interests. In a perfect world, that's all that would matter, but unfortunately that's not possible outside of a utopian society. Companies need to make money. Steve the environment artist needs to put his kid through college. Publisher 1 can't be confident in investing in Super Niche Adventure Game The Game because their stocks have been falling for a solid year, so they put their money in Bankable Gritty Brown Shooter to get back on their feet. Dave the writer is done with his job once the game is out of preproduction, and sometimes bonus content is the only thing between him and getting laid off. Never forget that.

Does that mean that every decision is made in everyone's best interest, and the industry is free of corruption? Hell no. But it's not nearly as prevalent as gamers proclaim or believe. Just because someone is receiving your money, that doesn't mean you have to watch every step they make and call them out for being corrupt when they do something that doesn't sound quite right.

Just trust someone for once. If a developer wants to work on another installment of Franchise X, let them. If there's an audience for it, let them have the game, even if you don't like the sound of the new direction for the series. Instead of defaulting to "this is now ruined forever", be cautious, not hateful. No one deserves to be hated for a relatively minor decision in an entertainment industry. Microsoft doesn't deserve to be hated for continuing to develop Halo, EA doesn't deserve to be hated for investing in their popular franchises, etc. Hate is a strong word and a strong feeling. If you throw it around so trivially, you better have a damn good reason be so unhealthily resentful. Or you could stop. You could remember that every game that you buy has hundreds or thousands of hours of people's work put into it for ten hours of your enjoyment, and you could appreciate that for once. Maybe let them know that they really are making something you enjoy. Maybe send them a card and some flowers. I'm sure that would be a little improvement in their day in the middle of the floods of hate mail that get sent their way.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

TL;DR: hundreds of people put time and money into pleasing you, so maybe you should appreciate the good things for once instead of holding a grudge over every little thing that ever pisses you off. At the very least it's healthier for you and the community.

And please remember that this TL;DR is way oversimplified and not the entire point. So many people are quoting this alone over something that's covered in the actual text.

I agree with you to an extent, but not entirely. The issue isn't black and white.

The community can overreact, on mass they can be a very loud, distracting and ultimately unproductive force in the industry. Things can snowball, people join the cacophony, others follow trendy affairs. Buzz words fly around like they actually mean something...

This ingrains itself into the mindset of large communities, and par for the course for humanity, large communities with strong opinions become defensive of alien opinions, if not outright aggressive.

But, if you think for a second that the Producer gives a crap about you or even the actual content of the games, you're being naive. They like large numbers, flow charts, Pie Charts, Statistical analyses... they like safe bets and massive pay offs. They don't like blind fate.

This results in stagnation in a primarily creative industry. The people making the calls, who have the most important asset (money) and who are most at risk are the Business men... these people are so far removed from the creative process the concept is alien to them. In the AAA industry, unless you are both creative and entrepreneurial, you will be either a creative person or a business man... and the 2 aren't cross compatible by and large.

If you want 100% proof that Producers don't care about you or your needs or even the games they make, look at the controversies involving Second Hand sales. A perfectly normal and widely accepted trade for all mediums, is now "worse then piracy" (as said by Lionhead Studio reps). That is outrageous... that is a company looking at the bottom line, seeing a loss and rather then blaming poor quality products or bad business practice, they blame a competing market that has being there essentially from the begining (despite massive growth in the industry). This is a controversy fuelled by greed.

The Business side of gaming sees numbers... if numbers add up nicely for a tidy profit, they are happy, If they just scrape by they aren't happy and if they make a loss, heads roll. What's worse is that they don't allow total creative control to the creative people... they will not fund products that aren't reliably supported which is the key area of innovation and for revitalising tired genres.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

This is an entertainment industry. The "entertainment" part of that is the consumer. The big, underlying motivation for developers is that, not making a profit, but money is definitely still a motivation. The whole "they only care about the money" mindset is exactly the problem, though.

The great thing is, I can get called both an anti-corporate hippie and a corporate apologist for this one sentence depending on what the person reading it decides to assume.

corporate hippie

BRING IT BRO.

OT: phlakes, before even reading, i KNEW you were going to swing that ME3 in there, you are one of the few who have been highly against it on here, so i'm going to disregard that as to not get into a heated argument over that.

publishers are in the business for one reason, TO MAKE MONEY, and most developers are owned by publishers, therefore, they must please the shareholders above all else. That is personally why I, and like many others, base our opinions on dislikes and not trusting, because when i buy a game, i am buying a product from a business, and i will critique the shit out of it to hell and back like most, and i will listen to others critiques as well. Not to say I don't say nice things about games, because i do, but if no one talks about the critiques and just about all the good things some game might do, then i'll probably turn out to be disappointed in alot of games learning about these "mistakes" from first hand experience. (such as if reviewers/critics don't point out things that are bad (cough me3 ending cough, i kid, i said i'd avoid that topic)

as pointed out, the average "herp derp dis game DIS FUNNNNNN" generally don't go on message boards..therefore what you see is not a proper consensus of a "gaming community" if you wanna even call it that.

I think you are also mistaking alot of "hate" or "dislike" for cautiousness, as I don't think i've ever hated a game in my life, i just try not to get my hopes up in the slightest about things, because alot of times, due to money/time constraints, things don't end up like promised/planned, which in turn sucks for the consumers.

 

[Loonyyy]

I think the real problem is that gaming forums are an echo chamber of like minded people.

1 Person can make criticism.

Several people can make criticism.

A community speaking with individual voices can only make up a mob, not a critical viewpoint.

But when a critique is valid, and obvious, it will be noticed by a large portion of people, most of whom will repeat it. You end up with everyone saying the same things, slightly varied, some more aggressively as others, much of it hyperbolic, and the sheer quantity of it seems like hate. I'd argue that much of it isn't hate, just exaggeration, hyperbole, and the repetition of the same ad nauseaum.

Now sure, there are brand loyalties, trends, and whatever, but I doub't it's all just "We hate things". It seems more likely to me we're unhappy about things, exaggerate the importance of our unhappiness and this is then replicated to the point where the community seems like a hateful mess.

Not to say that any of the anger at some things, or the hate some may feel, for some good reasons, don't exist, or aren't valid. It just seems kind of rude to dismiss everyone as hateful simply because that is what it seems to average out to.

 

[Thoric485]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-05-04-free-radical-vs-the-monsters

I can't stand behind companies that screw over passionate and talented people for money.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

I'm fine with people being skeptical, even hateful, of things that publishers and developers do. On the topic of halo 4, I think you shouldn't judge a game before you've seen gameplay, for any game. On the larger issue of automatic hate and petitions and whatnot, I think people are getting much too stupid about their boycotts and petitions. There are some things, like for example, a boring sequel, that is not actually worth a petition or a boycott. That's when you, personally, simply don't buy the game. That should send enough of a message, if all fans of the series acted that maturely about it. There are other things, like on-disc DLC and having to be online all the time, that people just forget about after a while, which DESERVE petitions and boycotts and don't get them because people aren't committed enough.

I think the problem is more that 'we' are a blunt instrument now. All of the failed boycotts and petitions that went nowhere and outcries over nothing have masked 'our' actual concerns and serious issues. I don't think publishers are that out of touch that they think DRM and milking money out of things will be recieved well. They definitely know what they're doing. It's just that there are no consequences for it. You're right about the misdirection of hate. As soon as another little thing comes along, all the sins are forgotten because there's a new villain in town. And the publisher gets away with more and more monetising and bullsh*t because they can. If this goes on, eventually we'll be paying for each component of a game individually, and we'll be renting it, not buying it.

tl;dr, hate is fine, it's focus we don't have.

 

[Avalanche91]

You bring up a few interesting points, however I disagree with your opinion.

Gamers are distrustful of developpers but not without reason. I would not be distrustful of the industry if they didn't try their hardest to milk me for every penny. We have to deal with;

-Day 1 DLC
-Super Special Awesome editions 6 months after the initial game
-Installation spyware on our computer to play EA games
-Promises of gold and find lead
-Incredibly messy DRM
-And no doubt some other stuff I am currently forgetting.

And if we complain about it, we are the entitled whiney fanboys, according to the very people who sold us their products.

So the distrust is justified in my opinion.

 

[Lunatic High]

I'm sure if it were just the same there would be people saying "Its just like Halo 1 ,2 ,3 and its getting boring" I myself don't care how different the overall changes are with Halo 4 I'd still play it just cause I like the story, characters, and shooting something other than terrorists for a change.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Now, I don't mean to say that voicing your opinion is a bad thing.

You may not mean to, but that's pretty much exactly what you're saying. If I am so dissatisfied with a game that I want to demand that it is changed, why is this a bad thing? I am not holding a gun to the developer's head. They can easily refuse.

Furthermore, when did boycotting a game become an irrational and unreasonable thing to do? If I disagree with their practices or feel that they have made negative changes to a gaming franchise, I am perfectly entitled not to give them my money. It's my money. The whole point of this shitty capitalist system is that I am allowed to choose where it goes.

I just don't see how "hating" the industry is an issue. No one is getting hurt. If I don't want to support an industry whose practices I disagree with, I am not being "hateful". It's not as though I am storming their offices and gunning down the workers.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

Thank you for putting a TL;DR Phlakes. :3

OT: I don't "hate", I "criticize" or "vent" (Everyone has to vent sometimes)

I don't tend to get angry about games unless it's a crappy effort on the devs part, like FIFA games, I see literally no difference, it's just re released every year with a slight graphical improvement(Good thing I don't play/like actual football otherwise I might care about these things). So there is an example of the "Hate" I produce, nothing more.

Pretty much this...first off, thanks for the TL;DR and sorry about my response based off of that...Anyway, I'll do more or less this too: criticize and/or vent about something annoying but I'd follow it up with not buying into the thing that annoys me. Sometimes (like with Bring Down the Sky) I can't avoid the not buying part since I didn't know ahead of time what would be the focus of my ire. Other things, like Diablo 3, is something I can criticize and save money on by not buying into it.