Hatred of PUAs? Why?

[Queen Michael]

I'd say because most guys would be genuinely grateful for any attempt by a woman to have sex with them, regardless of whether the woman uses make-up, fake nails/hair/eyelashes, push-up bras, shape improving lingerie, high heels, revealing clothes. But girls don't tend to want to be manipulated by PUAs. So it's a basic case of respecting people's desires.

 

[blackrave]

A.No, haven't seen this show.

A. You should, its the best comedy show from the last decade.

Ok, I'll check it out.

I'd say because most guys would be genuinely grateful for any attempt by a woman to have sex with them, regardless of whether the woman uses make-up, fake nails/hair/eyelashes, push-up bras, shape improving lingerie, high heels, revealing clothes. But girls don't tend to want to be manipulated by PUAs. So it's a basic case of respecting people's desires.

That is kinda pathetic, don't you think?
(to clarify- I'm talking about guys here)

 

[Queen Michael]

I'd say because most guys would be genuinely grateful for any attempt by a woman to have sex with them, regardless of whether the woman uses make-up, fake nails/hair/eyelashes, push-up bras, shape improving lingerie, high heels, revealing clothes. But girls don't tend to want to be manipulated by PUAs. So it's a basic case of respecting people's desires.

That is kinda pathetic, don't you think?
(to clarify- I'm talking about guys here)

Could be, but it's still the plain facts.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Guys, I think this another one of those threads. The OP asked people to explain something to them, people responded with plenty of arguments - emotional abuse, ethical questionability, loathsome values, rapey undertones - and the OP hasn't changed their view on anything or even responded in a "Oh, I see it" way. It's not worth it.

As for the actual subject, if you honestly see women putting on makeup and a guy forcing women's faces in his crotch as essentially the same thing, maybe you're beyond trying to see new light on the issue.

 

[Azure23]

I think we could probably just link Roosh V's site and be done with it yeah? I mean the man has admitted, bragged even, about date raping women and getting away with it because it was a foreign country.

As for the OP, you have some pretty gross ideas about women and female sexuality in general, maybe take a gender studies class or two, and try to realize that women usually aren't trying to look good for you, but for themselves. In the same way that I wash my face so I won't get spots and shave because I look terrible with facial hair.

 

[astrav1]

In short, puas are terrible, as are the people they pick up. Why everyone can't just admit that most people are trash baffles me to this day.

 

[MCerberus]

PUAs break the most basic tenet of Kantian ethics, which I by and large subscribe to, making them willfully assholes. Not only that, but they are assholes towards a very, very sensitive and emotional subject.

So basically, they're scum.

 

[JimB]

I'm at a genuine loss as to how I can possibly explain the difference between trying to accentuate my own positive features versus trying to take advantage of another person's weaknesses. Um...I dunno, pretend I dug out that Nathan Fillion .gif while I try to think of a way to explain this.

Okay, I got one: It's like the difference between training to become a better competitive figure skater and breaking your opponent's knee with a crowbar. Does that help?

 

[DeaDRabbiT]

I'm just going to take a wild fucking guess here and say it might have something to do with the "manipulate" part of that description.

I agree with ya.

If us dudes are dumb enough (which we are) to get snookered by the flashing lights, and whizzing buzzers (aka: push up bras and eye liner) without a woman saying a word, then that's our fault.

But Pick Up Artists (male or female) tend to use subterfuge, and outright falsities to achieve their own ends, and it usually doesn't include any sort of dignity for their targets.

I really wouldn't even call these people "pick up artists" they are more like douchebags with a high opinion of themselves.

The Most Interesting Man in the World... Now THAT is a pick up artist.

 

[WindKnight]

Close, but not exactly.
I don't entirely understand why hatred towards them is so intense.
Maybe it is totally deserved.
THAT IS WHY I'M ASKING.
Are we clear now?

Lets see, many tactics advocated are Abusive. Some are outright sexual assault - others carry all the hallmarks of an abusive relationship, and are about committing emotional abuse. And none of this is in the interest of building a stable, healthy relationship, its about getting laid whether the lady they target wants or enjoys it.

Thats before we get into the ones who have essentially admitted to taking advantage of those too drunk to consent, and act like there's nothing wrong with what they have done.

 

[Redryhno]

Alot of it? Because people don't really look into it beyond what they're told. Not to mention they think the barest mention of them is grounds for witch burning. Doesn't help that media presents it in the worst way possible pretty much every time and in a really stupid fashion to boot.

The funny part is, the baseline classes honestly are healthy for pretty much anyone, all about projecting confidence and finding something you can do to make people go "OOOOO SHINY" that most other people can't do as well, if at all. Pretty harmless honestly.

It's the later stuff that can be destructive and very unhealthy however. Manipulation is something everyone does when they start dating, anybody that says otherwise is either lying to you, or has known who they're dating for years before they start that part.

Honestly most of them are harmless, abrasive and maybe act a bit like children when they don't get their way when they use all their toys, sure, but I doubt many more than the people in charge would act on anything, and even then, PUA is about not really having to use physical force to do anything.

But hey, I've got an overall positive view of it considering I've got a roommate that met her girlfriend because of going to a couple classes(*gasp* only men can be PUA's right?). So feel free to bring out your pitchforks and kindling. Or ignore what I'm saying, whatever.

 

[esserin]

Basically, instead of going

"I'm awesome, you're awesome, let's have sex!"

They go

"I'm awesome, you suck horribly, you should be grateful for the chance to have sex with me."


Edit: But PUA is a pretty vast grouping. There are many different views in it. And I guess we like to focus on the more negative side of the whole thing. The worst of the worst.

Kinda like men's rights activists. We don't focus on the father that lost his children because kids need their mother but not their father. We focus on the idiots that complain that girls only want bad boys.

 

[briankoontz]

The OP's comparison isn't accurate. Female methods of making their bodies more desirable to men are comparable to men doing things (both physically and otherwise) to make themselves more desirable to women. So a man who wants to attract women who are attracted to men with money gets more money.

Sex causes a deep psycho-chemical bond between two people. This comes into direct conflict with the intention of seduction, which is to have a sexual encounter with no lasting emotional outcomes. Seducers are out of touch with reality, which is why they are often associated with sociopaths. The most generous way to consider seduction is that it's deeply immature, but this neglects the destruction involved in the intentional denial of the bonding process of sexuality.

 

[Queen Michael]

I'd say because most guys would be genuinely grateful for any attempt by a woman to have sex with them

'Grateful' is a strange word to use here. When I'm grateful for something I say 'thanks mate'. I do not do this after sex.

I used to, but my girlfriend told me to stop.

 

[Tilly]

I do sorta agree that it's about a difference of scale rather than a difference of kind. A huge number of everyday people are dishonest and do manipulate other people around them in order to get what they want.

I know I've been manipulated pretty badly in the past by dishonest people in relationships. How big a difference did it make that they were half doing it subconsciously and because of just general shitty personality rather than systematic design? Well not that much when you're the victim. It's definitely creepier though.

 

[R.K. Meades]

I'd say because most guys would be genuinely grateful for any attempt by a woman to have sex with them, regardless of whether the woman uses make-up, fake nails/hair/eyelashes, push-up bras, shape improving lingerie, high heels, revealing clothes.

When you're a straight guy under the age of 30, absolutely. If you pass that hurdle with financial stability, no kids, and minimal personal baggage, the novelty of women actively pursuing you will fade quicker than the scent of cheap cologne.

 

[stroopwafel]

So, PUA is like this 'controversial' dating advice right? Other than the mass potential for scamming desperate guys from their money I don't see anything wrong with it. That is if the intent is to be more confident around women, which I assume is the point.

Let's be honest here, it's much easier for women to find someone for sex than it is for a guy. Not only that but the urge to have sex is also much worse for men. Not that women can't enjoy sex as much(they do) but they don't have that oppressive urge that necessitates physical release. Like women can go for weeks without masturbation if they don't have a sex partner, but for a guy this would be unthinkable.

So, it's easier for women to have sex but it's much harder for guys to find it despite suffering from more physical immediacy. This unreciprocated desire is I think reason for a lot of resentment.

Getting back to the point its hard for many to most men to 'seduce' women. Mostly for the biological(or rather hormonal) difference I explained above. So whatever helps helps. Also the people who read this kind of PUA-crap are the love-shy geeks and other dateless 'losers' and the thought of them suddenly turning into some kind of suave fuckers 'manipulating' any and every woman into bed is quite frankly ridiculous.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

What is make-up, fake nails/hair/eyelashes, push-up bras, shape improving lingerie, high heels, revealing clothes, etc., if NOT manipulation of male psyche.

Spoiler

Maybe I'm missing something, but....

This is our current Prime Minister.

Isn't it less of a taboo for men to wear next to nothing than women in pretty much every society on this planet?

For the longest time women had to show modesty in all public expressions of life. Many cultures still have this mentality. If anything, the level field has only recently evened out. (Edit) As for makeup up? Exactly how many wear much of it beyond going out? I guess it's because people want to look creative? Same reason people get tattoos, or wear earrings and other piercings. The body is a fashion statement. Is fashion bad?

 

[Asclepion]

Let's be honest here, it's much easier for women to find someone for sex than it is for a guy. Not only that but the urge to have sex is also much worse for men. Not that women can't enjoy sex as much(they do) but they don't have that oppressive urge that necessitates physical release. Like women can go for weeks without masturbation if they don't have a sex partner, but for a guy this would be unthinkable.

So, it's easier for women to have sex but it's much harder for guys to find it despite suffering from more physical immediacy. This unreciprocated desire is I think reason for a lot of resentment.

This makes me wonder at what level immersive VR or realistic gynoids would change the dynamic between the sexes. The girls from Dead or Alive are more beautiful than 99% of the world's female population, and already we have examples of people losing themselves inside MMOs and such.

 

[Thaluikhain]

So, PUA is like this 'controversial' dating advice right? Other than the mass potential for scamming desperate guys from their money I don't see anything wrong with it.

Well, apart from the controversy being that PUAs preach behaviour that is manipulative or outright abusive. To the extent that noted PUA lecturer got deported from Australia and not allowed into the UK either. IIRC, he was big on going to Japan and walking the streets, grabbing random women and pushing their heads into his crotch or somesuch.